"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:26:25 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

(No-one in his right mind though is going to suggest that 'digital' will
ever match the sheer quality of a top notch Hasselblad/Zeiss T* or Leica B&W
bromide print though, despite that in terms of 'hue', if nothing else, it is
immediately a lot less 'accurate' than a colour digital photo from the
outset.....)

Wrong. Unless you restrict yourself to films of less than 100 ASA, the
Canon 1Ds will beat the pants off any Leica. The jury may be out on
the Hassel, since the digiback for that is about 20 grand!

In much the same way, a good SS amp will beat the pants off your
rose-tinted valve amps. A bad recording is not *supposed* to sound
relaxing........................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:22:25 -0000, "Wally"
wrote:

Alex Butcher wrote:

...but do you think you could tell the difference between your old
player connected to your DAC via a digital link, and your mate's
Arcam connected to the same DAC via a digital link?

I think detecting a difference in sound quality in this situation would be
next to impossible.


DACs are known to have an impact on sound. I'm not sure what the
state of the art is now, but the various newish and very cheap
CD-Rom/personal CD players (i.e. probably using new 1-bit DACs) that
I have sound *better* than my 13 year old Aiwa midi (which has a
olde-fashioned 16-bit DAC).

I don't really know which conversion system is supposedly better.

Neither. Multibit is prone to low-level non-linearity, single-bit is
prone to jitter. State of the art converters tend to be hybrids like
the dCS RingDAC, high-oversampling 4 or 5 bit designs.

The DAC is
several years old (1990-ish?),

Yup, that's about right. HFN reviewed it in August 1990, I think I
bought mine/yours early in '91.

while the DVD was bought new about a year
ago. It's interesting to note that the DVD player has a quoted noise figure
of 70dB, compared to the DAC's at around 94dB.

70dB?!! That's *atrocious*!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:22:25 -0000, "Wally"
wrote:

Alex Butcher wrote:

...but do you think you could tell the difference between your old
player connected to your DAC via a digital link, and your mate's
Arcam connected to the same DAC via a digital link?

I think detecting a difference in sound quality in this situation would be
next to impossible.


DACs are known to have an impact on sound. I'm not sure what the
state of the art is now, but the various newish and very cheap
CD-Rom/personal CD players (i.e. probably using new 1-bit DACs) that
I have sound *better* than my 13 year old Aiwa midi (which has a
olde-fashioned 16-bit DAC).

I don't really know which conversion system is supposedly better.

Neither. Multibit is prone to low-level non-linearity, single-bit is
prone to jitter. State of the art converters tend to be hybrids like
the dCS RingDAC, high-oversampling 4 or 5 bit designs.

The DAC is
several years old (1990-ish?),

Yup, that's about right. HFN reviewed it in August 1990, I think I
bought mine/yours early in '91.

while the DVD was bought new about a year
ago. It's interesting to note that the DVD player has a quoted noise figure
of 70dB, compared to the DAC's at around 94dB.

70dB?!! That's *atrocious*!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Wrong. Unless you restrict yourself to films of less than 100 ASA, the
Canon 1Ds will beat the pants off any Leica. The jury may be out on
the Hassel, since the digiback for that is about 20 grand!

In much the same way, a good SS amp will beat the pants off your
rose-tinted valve amps. A bad recording is not *supposed* to sound
relaxing........................
--



don't mess with my F2.
I know you have another cam'ra
so don't mess with my F2........ (Appologies to Ms Lasalle)

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Wrong. Unless you restrict yourself to films of less than 100 ASA, the
Canon 1Ds will beat the pants off any Leica. The jury may be out on
the Hassel, since the digiback for that is about 20 grand!

In much the same way, a good SS amp will beat the pants off your
rose-tinted valve amps. A bad recording is not *supposed* to sound
relaxing........................
--



don't mess with my F2.
I know you have another cam'ra
so don't mess with my F2........ (Appologies to Ms Lasalle)

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 09:26:38 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

1) In most cases with decent amplifiers, the THD level stays well below
0.1% from below clipping until the signal vanishes into the noise. This can
be the case for both class-A and AB designs. (So far as I know, no-one uses
class B for audio, and has not done so for many years.)

To support what our wise old sage ;-) has written. I attempted to
measure the distortion of my class AB power amplifier many years ago -
looking for (from memory) fifth harmonic, which is indicative of
crossover distortion, at very low signal levels. The distortion
reading was extremely low and a higher reading was obtained when
connecting the oscillator/attenuator directly to the distortion meter,
probably because of the buffering provided by the amplifier.

From my experience, crossover distortion is only a problem if the
amplifier is poorly designed or faulty.

If you want to see real distortion, try measuring your speakers. Even
better, try them with a tone burst test.


--
Chris Isbell
Southampton
UK

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 09:26:38 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

1) In most cases with decent amplifiers, the THD level stays well below
0.1% from below clipping until the signal vanishes into the noise. This can
be the case for both class-A and AB designs. (So far as I know, no-one uses
class B for audio, and has not done so for many years.)

To support what our wise old sage ;-) has written. I attempted to
measure the distortion of my class AB power amplifier many years ago -
looking for (from memory) fifth harmonic, which is indicative of
crossover distortion, at very low signal levels. The distortion
reading was extremely low and a higher reading was obtained when
connecting the oscillator/attenuator directly to the distortion meter,
probably because of the buffering provided by the amplifier.

From my experience, crossover distortion is only a problem if the
amplifier is poorly designed or faulty.

If you want to see real distortion, try measuring your speakers. Even
better, try them with a tone burst test.


--
Chris Isbell
Southampton
UK

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

a good SS amp will beat the pants off your
rose-tinted valve amps.

Is there anything in life that isn't a 'competition'?

Let's see - "The first round draw has now been announced, and the good SS amp
is at home to the rose-tinted valve amp" Hang on a sec - that's sport, I'm on
the wrong newsgroup.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

a good SS amp will beat the pants off your
rose-tinted valve amps.

Is there anything in life that isn't a 'competition'?

Let's see - "The first round draw has now been announced, and the good SS amp
is at home to the rose-tinted valve amp" Hang on a sec - that's sport, I'm on
the wrong newsgroup.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:26:25 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

(No-one in his right mind though is going to suggest that 'digital' will
ever match the sheer quality of a top notch Hasselblad/Zeiss T* or Leica
B&W
bromide print though, despite that in terms of 'hue', if nothing else, it
is
immediately a lot less 'accurate' than a colour digital photo from the
outset.....)

Wrong. Unless you restrict yourself to films of less than 100 ASA, the
Canon 1Ds will beat the pants off any Leica. The jury may be out on
the Hassel, since the digiback for that is about 20 grand!

In much the same way, a good SS amp will beat the pants off your
rose-tinted valve amps. A bad recording is not *supposed* to sound
relaxing........................



*Tooooo* easy! :-)

Anyway, forget all that (totally wrong anyway) and see what I've done
*since* I posted the above:

This:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...riaacard01.jpg

became this:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...riaacard02.jpg

and got plugged in thus:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...riaacard03.jpg

where it worked first time - the card being powered by the PC and one deck
(not in the picture) is being played on another computer (because it's got
the speakers on it (also not in the picture or same room come to that!).....

.....and is now on it's way to becoming my 'RIAA input PC Card' when I suss
out a connector to the soundcard and rig up a pair of phonos on a spare slot
on the computer for the inputs.

(How's them apples for an old fart who don't have a 'techie' bone in his
body????)

:-)

And, Nick, so far there's no 'noise' whatsoever - don't know about when I
start to stuff it in the box. I'm hoping I'll be able to screen it, if
necessary......

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:26:25 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

(No-one in his right mind though is going to suggest that 'digital' will
ever match the sheer quality of a top notch Hasselblad/Zeiss T* or Leica
B&W
bromide print though, despite that in terms of 'hue', if nothing else, it
is
immediately a lot less 'accurate' than a colour digital photo from the
outset.....)

Wrong. Unless you restrict yourself to films of less than 100 ASA, the
Canon 1Ds will beat the pants off any Leica. The jury may be out on
the Hassel, since the digiback for that is about 20 grand!

In much the same way, a good SS amp will beat the pants off your
rose-tinted valve amps. A bad recording is not *supposed* to sound
relaxing........................



*Tooooo* easy! :-)

Anyway, forget all that (totally wrong anyway) and see what I've done
*since* I posted the above:

This:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...riaacard01.jpg

became this:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...riaacard02.jpg

and got plugged in thus:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...riaacard03.jpg

where it worked first time - the card being powered by the PC and one deck
(not in the picture) is being played on another computer (because it's got
the speakers on it (also not in the picture or same room come to that!).....

.....and is now on it's way to becoming my 'RIAA input PC Card' when I suss
out a connector to the soundcard and rig up a pair of phonos on a spare slot
on the computer for the inputs.

(How's them apples for an old fart who don't have a 'techie' bone in his
body????)

:-)

And, Nick, so far there's no 'noise' whatsoever - don't know about when I
start to stuff it in the box. I'm hoping I'll be able to screen it, if
necessary......

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:26:25 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

Which doesn't exist or ever will - it's up to the individual to make
the necessary trade-offs between 'accurate' and 'pleasant' to listen
to in terms of 'distortion'.

To all intents and purposes any amp thats linear up to about 40-50kHz is
ideal in audio terms. you will NEVER hear the difference, probably even
at lower frequncy limits than that (I picked 50kHz as its well beyond
any meaningful measure for humans)

My own view (surprise surprise) is that valves and analogue, while
supposedly less 'accurate', are *far* more pleasant (and a lot less
tiring)

Who says valves have to produce a non-linear output? you can build
perfectly linear valve amps if you try. A linear valve amp and a linear
SS amp rated to driev the same loads, will sound *identical* to each
other in any measurable way.

as to frequency response and all that... My dad has a 20MHz valve scope
around, which is at least proof of concept...

Valves still look cooler ;-)

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 12:26:25 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

Which doesn't exist or ever will - it's up to the individual to make
the necessary trade-offs between 'accurate' and 'pleasant' to listen
to in terms of 'distortion'.

To all intents and purposes any amp thats linear up to about 40-50kHz is
ideal in audio terms. you will NEVER hear the difference, probably even
at lower frequncy limits than that (I picked 50kHz as its well beyond
any meaningful measure for humans)

My own view (surprise surprise) is that valves and analogue, while
supposedly less 'accurate', are *far* more pleasant (and a lot less
tiring)

Who says valves have to produce a non-linear output? you can build
perfectly linear valve amps if you try. A linear valve amp and a linear
SS amp rated to driev the same loads, will sound *identical* to each
other in any measurable way.

as to frequency response and all that... My dad has a 20MHz valve scope
around, which is at least proof of concept...

Valves still look cooler ;-)

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Keith G wrote:

And, Nick, so far there's no 'noise' whatsoever - don't know about when I
start to stuff it in the box. I'm hoping I'll be able to screen it, if
necessary......


Great, but don't ignore noise you can't hear.

Hmm, not sure how many negatives there are in that phrase...

--
Nick

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Keith G wrote:

And, Nick, so far there's no 'noise' whatsoever - don't know about when I
start to stuff it in the box. I'm hoping I'll be able to screen it, if
necessary......


Great, but don't ignore noise you can't hear.

Hmm, not sure how many negatives there are in that phrase...

--
Nick

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:06:13 +0000, Kurt Hamster
wrote:

I'll stick to my 20 yr old Minolta SLR and Yashica TLR thanks :)

I took most of my 7,000 slide archive on an XD-7, loaded with
Kodachrome 25.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Mon, 05 Jan 2004 20:06:13 +0000, Kurt Hamster
wrote:

I'll stick to my 20 yr old Minolta SLR and Yashica TLR thanks :)

I took most of my 7,000 slide archive on an XD-7, loaded with
Kodachrome 25.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Hi Nick,

I'm just about to start fitting the card into the PC case (will send photos
if/when successful). I have to say it is sounding very good atm -very
'clean' to the ear at any rate. (Easily as good as CDs played in the
computer - not bad for 9.99!! :-)

How can we test for 'noise'? Is it as simple as I record something and send
you a shortish WAV or summat and you put it through your gismo?


Keith





"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

And, Nick, so far there's no 'noise' whatsoever - don't know about when
I
start to stuff it in the box. I'm hoping I'll be able to screen it, if
necessary......


Great, but don't ignore noise you can't hear.

Hmm, not sure how many negatives there are in that phrase...

--
Nick

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Hi Nick,

I'm just about to start fitting the card into the PC case (will send photos
if/when successful). I have to say it is sounding very good atm -very
'clean' to the ear at any rate. (Easily as good as CDs played in the
computer - not bad for 9.99!! :-)

How can we test for 'noise'? Is it as simple as I record something and send
you a shortish WAV or summat and you put it through your gismo?


Keith





"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

And, Nick, so far there's no 'noise' whatsoever - don't know about when
I
start to stuff it in the box. I'm hoping I'll be able to screen it, if
necessary......


Great, but don't ignore noise you can't hear.

Hmm, not sure how many negatives there are in that phrase...

--
Nick

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Oops, meant to send this direct!



"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Hi Nick,

I'm just about to start fitting the card into the PC case (will send
photos
if/when successful). I have to say it is sounding very good atm -very
'clean' to the ear at any rate. (Easily as good as CDs played in the
computer - not bad for 9.99!! :-)

How can we test for 'noise'? Is it as simple as I record something and
send
you a shortish WAV or summat and you put it through your gismo?


Keith





"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

And, Nick, so far there's no 'noise' whatsoever - don't know about
when
I
start to stuff it in the box. I'm hoping I'll be able to screen it, if
necessary......


Great, but don't ignore noise you can't hear.

Hmm, not sure how many negatives there are in that phrase...

--
Nick

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Oops, meant to send this direct!



"Keith G" wrote in message
...

Hi Nick,

I'm just about to start fitting the card into the PC case (will send
photos
if/when successful). I have to say it is sounding very good atm -very
'clean' to the ear at any rate. (Easily as good as CDs played in the
computer - not bad for 9.99!! :-)

How can we test for 'noise'? Is it as simple as I record something and
send
you a shortish WAV or summat and you put it through your gismo?


Keith





"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

And, Nick, so far there's no 'noise' whatsoever - don't know about
when
I
start to stuff it in the box. I'm hoping I'll be able to screen it, if
necessary......


Great, but don't ignore noise you can't hear.

Hmm, not sure how many negatives there are in that phrase...

--
Nick

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
a good SS amp will beat the pants off your
rose-tinted valve amps.

Is there anything in life that isn't a 'competition'?


:-)



Let's see - "The first round draw has now been announced, and the good SS
amp
is at home to the rose-tinted valve amp"



Funny you should say that - myself, I've always got the impression is that
it is the good valve amp playing away to the grey-tinged SS amp in this
group.....

(No contest btw - the valve amp wins every time! ;-)

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
a good SS amp will beat the pants off your
rose-tinted valve amps.

Is there anything in life that isn't a 'competition'?


:-)



Let's see - "The first round draw has now been announced, and the good SS
amp
is at home to the rose-tinted valve amp"



Funny you should say that - myself, I've always got the impression is that
it is the good valve amp playing away to the grey-tinged SS amp in this
group.....

(No contest btw - the valve amp wins every time! ;-)

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote



Who says valves have to produce a non-linear output? you can build
perfectly linear valve amps if you try. A linear valve amp and a linear
SS amp rated to driev the same loads, will sound *identical* to each
other in any measurable way.


'Measure' being the operative word. In the real world the difference in the
sound *quality* is night and day AFAIAC.


as to frequency response and all that... My dad has a 20MHz valve scope
around, which is at least proof of concept...

Valves still look cooler ;-)


Yes they do, but I'm a bit past that myself - wouldn't matter to me if the
valves couldn't be seen, as indeed they can't on 5 of my 8 bits of valve kit
if I put the cages on.......


Valves? You either *get it* or you don't - no biggie either way.......

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote



Who says valves have to produce a non-linear output? you can build
perfectly linear valve amps if you try. A linear valve amp and a linear
SS amp rated to driev the same loads, will sound *identical* to each
other in any measurable way.


'Measure' being the operative word. In the real world the difference in the
sound *quality* is night and day AFAIAC.


as to frequency response and all that... My dad has a 20MHz valve scope
around, which is at least proof of concept...

Valves still look cooler ;-)


Yes they do, but I'm a bit past that myself - wouldn't matter to me if the
valves couldn't be seen, as indeed they can't on 5 of my 8 bits of valve kit
if I put the cages on.......


Valves? You either *get it* or you don't - no biggie either way.......

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:26:40 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

'Measure' being the operative word. In the real world the difference in the
sound *quality* is night and day AFAIAC.

Excuse me?

Are you suggesting that should the two theoretical amps be connected to speakers and put the *exact same* voltages across them, that the speakers will respond differently?

If so, thats great, I can get that 'valve sound' by nailing a valve to the lid of my Quad405...

....Excpet I'd rather not scratch the paint.

;-)

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:26:40 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

'Measure' being the operative word. In the real world the difference in the
sound *quality* is night and day AFAIAC.

Excuse me?

Are you suggesting that should the two theoretical amps be connected to speakers and put the *exact same* voltages across them, that the speakers will respond differently?

If so, thats great, I can get that 'valve sound' by nailing a valve to the lid of my Quad405...

....Excpet I'd rather not scratch the paint.

;-)

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:26:40 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Ian Molton" wrote

Who says valves have to produce a non-linear output? you can build
perfectly linear valve amps if you try. A linear valve amp and a linear
SS amp rated to driev the same loads, will sound *identical* to each
other in any measurable way.

'Measure' being the operative word. In the real world the difference in the
sound *quality* is night and day AFAIAC.

Which part of 'will *sound* identical' did you fail to understand?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:26:40 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Ian Molton" wrote

Who says valves have to produce a non-linear output? you can build
perfectly linear valve amps if you try. A linear valve amp and a linear
SS amp rated to driev the same loads, will sound *identical* to each
other in any measurable way.

'Measure' being the operative word. In the real world the difference in the
sound *quality* is night and day AFAIAC.

Which part of 'will *sound* identical' did you fail to understand?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Keith G wrote:

Who says valves have to produce a non-linear output? you can build
perfectly linear valve amps if you try. A linear valve amp and a
linear SS amp rated to driev the same loads, will sound *identical*
to each other in any measurable way.

'Measure' being the operative word. In the real world the difference
in the sound *quality* is night and day AFAIAC.

So is there something that makes the sound quality better, but isn't
measurable?


Valves? You either *get it* or you don't - no biggie either way.......

Too right. You can't beat the valve sound. I wonder what my 4-20 would sound
like if I put a guitar at one end, a couple of Celestions at the other, and
cranked it up... :-)


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
On webcam: Black Cat In Coal Cellar

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Keith G wrote:

Who says valves have to produce a non-linear output? you can build
perfectly linear valve amps if you try. A linear valve amp and a
linear SS amp rated to driev the same loads, will sound *identical*
to each other in any measurable way.

'Measure' being the operative word. In the real world the difference
in the sound *quality* is night and day AFAIAC.

So is there something that makes the sound quality better, but isn't
measurable?


Valves? You either *get it* or you don't - no biggie either way.......

Too right. You can't beat the valve sound. I wonder what my 4-20 would sound
like if I put a guitar at one end, a couple of Celestions at the other, and
cranked it up... :-)


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
On webcam: Black Cat In Coal Cellar

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Wally wrote:
Keith G wrote:


Who says valves have to produce a non-linear output? you can build
perfectly linear valve amps if you try. A linear valve amp and a
linear SS amp rated to driev the same loads, will sound *identical*
to each other in any measurable way.


'Measure' being the operative word. In the real world the difference
in the sound *quality* is night and day AFAIAC.


So is there something that makes the sound quality better, but isn't
measurable?



Valves? You either *get it* or you don't - no biggie either way.......


Too right. You can't beat the valve sound. I wonder what my 4-20 would sound
like if I put a guitar at one end, a couple of Celestions at the other, and
cranked it up... :-)


I suspect not as good as you would hope, guitar valve amps are designed
to be intentionally poor in HiFi terms. OPTX's that saturate, power
supplies that sag etc.

--
Nick

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Wally wrote:
Keith G wrote:


Who says valves have to produce a non-linear output? you can build
perfectly linear valve amps if you try. A linear valve amp and a
linear SS amp rated to driev the same loads, will sound *identical*
to each other in any measurable way.


'Measure' being the operative word. In the real world the difference
in the sound *quality* is night and day AFAIAC.


So is there something that makes the sound quality better, but isn't
measurable?



Valves? You either *get it* or you don't - no biggie either way.......


Too right. You can't beat the valve sound. I wonder what my 4-20 would sound
like if I put a guitar at one end, a couple of Celestions at the other, and
cranked it up... :-)


I suspect not as good as you would hope, guitar valve amps are designed
to be intentionally poor in HiFi terms. OPTX's that saturate, power
supplies that sag etc.

--
Nick

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Nick Gorham wrote:

I suspect not as good as you would hope, guitar valve amps are
designed to be intentionally poor in HiFi terms. OPTX's that
saturate, power supplies that sag etc.

But there's no feeling in the world that comes close to standing 5 feet from
an 8 x 12 Marshall stack with a low slung '59 Les Paul, playing BIG power
chords and riding the sustain...

Compare that to the 'real' (i.e unamplified) sound of said '59 Les Paul and
all notions of the amp being there merely to amplify the sound in the purest
possible terms instantly go out of the window ;-))))

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Nick Gorham wrote:

I suspect not as good as you would hope, guitar valve amps are
designed to be intentionally poor in HiFi terms. OPTX's that
saturate, power supplies that sag etc.

But there's no feeling in the world that comes close to standing 5 feet from
an 8 x 12 Marshall stack with a low slung '59 Les Paul, playing BIG power
chords and riding the sustain...

Compare that to the 'real' (i.e unamplified) sound of said '59 Les Paul and
all notions of the amp being there merely to amplify the sound in the purest
possible terms instantly go out of the window ;-))))

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Nick Gorham wrote:

Too right. You can't beat the valve sound. I wonder what my 4-20
would sound like if I put a guitar at one end, a couple of
Celestions at the other, and cranked it up... :-)

I suspect not as good as you would hope, guitar valve amps are
designed to be intentionally poor in HiFi terms. OPTX's that
saturate, power supplies that sag etc.

I'll stick with the valve guitar amps, then. :-)

I'd imagine it would sound very clean before it started overdriving,
although the speakers would add their own voicing in any case.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
On webcam: Black Cat In Coal Cellar

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

Nick Gorham wrote:

Too right. You can't beat the valve sound. I wonder what my 4-20
would sound like if I put a guitar at one end, a couple of
Celestions at the other, and cranked it up... :-)

I suspect not as good as you would hope, guitar valve amps are
designed to be intentionally poor in HiFi terms. OPTX's that
saturate, power supplies that sag etc.

I'll stick with the valve guitar amps, then. :-)

I'd imagine it would sound very clean before it started overdriving,
although the speakers would add their own voicing in any case.


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
On webcam: Black Cat In Coal Cellar

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:26:40 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

'Measure' being the operative word. In the real world the difference in
the
sound *quality* is night and day AFAIAC.

Excuse me?

Are you suggesting that should the two theoretical amps be connected to
speakers and put the *exact same* voltages across them, that the speakers
will respond differently?


Ian, I can swap between a decent Technics mosfet/bipolar power amp
(SE-A2000) and a pair of Dynaco Mk IIIs leaving everything else common
(record, deck, cart, phono stage, pre-amp, speakers, cables, interconnects )
and a blind man could hear the difference whether you match voltages SPLs or
whatever. Trust me....



If so, thats great, I can get that 'valve sound' by nailing a valve to the
lid of my Quad405...


You mean you haven't tried that already???

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:26:40 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

'Measure' being the operative word. In the real world the difference in
the
sound *quality* is night and day AFAIAC.

Excuse me?

Are you suggesting that should the two theoretical amps be connected to
speakers and put the *exact same* voltages across them, that the speakers
will respond differently?


Ian, I can swap between a decent Technics mosfet/bipolar power amp
(SE-A2000) and a pair of Dynaco Mk IIIs leaving everything else common
(record, deck, cart, phono stage, pre-amp, speakers, cables, interconnects )
and a blind man could hear the difference whether you match voltages SPLs or
whatever. Trust me....



If so, thats great, I can get that 'valve sound' by nailing a valve to the
lid of my Quad405...


You mean you haven't tried that already???

"What HiFi" - can it be trusted?
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 14:26:40 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

"Ian Molton" wrote

Who says valves have to produce a non-linear output? you can build
perfectly linear valve amps if you try. A linear valve amp and a linear
SS amp rated to driev the same loads, will sound *identical* to each
other in any measurable way.

'Measure' being the operative word. In the real world the difference in
the
sound *quality* is night and day AFAIAC.

Which part of 'will *sound* identical' did you fail to understand?


Which part of 'measurable' did you fail to understand?