Recording a concert by local choir
 

I may want to have a bash at making a recording of my wife's choir. I
realise it will not be remotely professional quality, but I hope I could do
better than a portable cassette deck!

I had in mind recording in two ways:
1. On my Sony Minidisc player
2. On my PC, creating a WAV file onto the hard disc, which I could later put
onto CD.

I have an old but decent (I think) pair of panasonic microphones which I
could experiment with. I assume I would stick them into my stereo amplifier
(circa 1975), and then feed the output into my Minidisc player and into the
sound card of the PC.

I know my home PC (Athlon 1400 processor) seems quite happy at making decent
WAV files, using Musicmatch software. I haven't tried yet with my work
laptop (Intel 900), and I don't know what software I would use on that.

Thanks for any (polite) suggestions, or any pointers to web sites that I
would find useful.

Steve

Recording a concert by local choir
 

steve wrote:

I may want to have a bash at making a recording of my wife's choir. I
realise it will not be remotely professional quality, but I hope I could
do better than a portable cassette deck!

I had in mind recording in two ways:
1. On my Sony Minidisc player
2. On my PC, creating a WAV file onto the hard disc, which I could later
put onto CD.

I have an old but decent (I think) pair of panasonic microphones which I
could experiment with. I assume I would stick them into my stereo
amplifier (circa 1975), and then feed the output into my Minidisc player
and into the sound card of the PC.

I know my home PC (Athlon 1400 processor) seems quite happy at making
decent
WAV files, using Musicmatch software. I haven't tried yet with my work
laptop (Intel 900), and I don't know what software I would use on that.

Thanks for any (polite) suggestions, or any pointers to web sites that I
would find useful.

Steve

I am not sure why you plan to go via the mini disk recorder to the PC unless
you intend to record on both just in case. However, as far as I can see
there are two potential weak links in your chain (and I have recorded a few
choirs in my time). The first is the microphones - do you know if they are
dynamic or electret types? What polar response do they have - cardioid or
omni. What is their frequency response. Are they low or high impedance
types? All these factors will affect the quality of the basic signal you
have to work with. The second potential weak link is the microphone
preamps on your 1975 hi-fi. These are not likely to be a particularly low
noise design and with a choir this is important as the mics need to be some
distance from the singers so the signal level is relatively small. if you
can achieve a decent signal level at low noise then recording on your
minidsik recorder will be fine. You can always transfer it later to your
PC and you avaoid having a noisy PC anywhere near the choir.

As for mic set up I usually use a crossed pair configuration at an angle of
110 degrees with the capsules about 8 inches apart. I built myself a
simple adaptor for this purpose out of two mic holders and a pice of
aluminium.

After you have doen the recording, you and the choir will notice two things.
First how different they sound from how they think they sound and second if
they hold any papers with the words on for example you will be amazed how
noisy they are.

HTH and good luck

Ian

Recording a concert by local choir
 

In article ,
steve wrote:
I have an old but decent (I think) pair of panasonic microphones which I
could experiment with. I assume I would stick them into my stereo
amplifier (circa 1975), and then feed the output into my Minidisc player
and into the sound card of the PC.

I'd be amazed if your stereo amplifier had mic inputs.

I know my home PC (Athlon 1400 processor) seems quite happy at making
decent WAV files, using Musicmatch software. I haven't tried yet with
my work laptop (Intel 900), and I don't know what software I would use
on that.

Thanks for any (polite) suggestions, or any pointers to web sites that I
would find useful.

I'd hire an SQN mixer for the day from any broadcast etc hire company.
This has decent mic amps that will accept/power near any type of mic, and
a very good limiter circuit which will prevent over mods, although you
need to set the levels so the limiter isn't working hard for the best
sound. Feed this to either the PC or the MiniDisc. The MiniDisc would be
my choice, given the quality of many PC sound cards.

Not knowing your mics, I'd probably hire a decent pair - or stereo one -
also.

--
*Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Recording a concert by local choir
 

steve wrote:
I may want to have a bash at making a recording of my wife's choir. I
realise it will not be remotely professional quality, but I hope I
could do better than a portable cassette deck!

I had in mind recording in two ways:
1. On my Sony Minidisc player
2. On my PC, creating a WAV file onto the hard disc, which I could
later put onto CD.

I have an old but decent (I think) pair of panasonic microphones
which I could experiment with. I assume I would stick them into my
stereo amplifier (circa 1975), and then feed the output into my
Minidisc player and into the sound card of the PC.

I know my home PC (Athlon 1400 processor) seems quite happy at making
decent WAV files, using Musicmatch software. I haven't tried yet
with my work laptop (Intel 900), and I don't know what software I
would use on that.

Thanks for any (polite) suggestions, or any pointers to web sites
that I would find useful.

Steve

1) I have a portable cassette deck that can happily flatten any minidisc
recorder out there, ta very much (Sony TC153).

2) Where are you going to position the mics - can you fit them in on stage,
or will they be in the aisle?

3) How are you going to mount them - you can't spent the whole concert with
them on your lap y'kno.

4) Will the leads be long enough.

5) If it's the pc, the power cords are gonna be a pain, and the laptop WILL
flatten the batteries just at the good bit.

If you're interested, this was taken with my TC153 and a cheapo
audio-technica stereo mic meant for video recorders 10ft from the stage of a
small church in the centre aisle, on a camera tripod.

http://punter1.users.btopenworld.com..._Flat_Op77.mp3

Recording a concert by local choir
 

In article , steve
writes
I may want to have a bash at making a recording of my wife's choir. I
realise it will not be remotely professional quality, but I hope I could do
better than a portable cassette deck!

I had in mind recording in two ways:
1. On my Sony Minidisc player
2. On my PC, creating a WAV file onto the hard disc, which I could later put
onto CD.

I have an old but decent (I think) pair of panasonic microphones which I
could experiment with. I assume I would stick them into my stereo amplifier
(circa 1975), and then feed the output into my Minidisc player and into the
sound card of the PC.

I know my home PC (Athlon 1400 processor) seems quite happy at making decent
WAV files, using Musicmatch software. I haven't tried yet with my work
laptop (Intel 900), and I don't know what software I would use on that.

Thanks for any (polite) suggestions, or any pointers to web sites that I
would find useful.

Steve



Acquire an old REVOX tape machine and make sure its set up well, borrow
or hire the bast mic's you can lay hands on, and then revel in the sound
afterwards :-))
--
Tony Sayer

Recording a concert by local choir
 

Triffid wrote:



1) I have a portable cassette deck that can happily flatten any minidisc
recorder out there, ta very much (Sony TC153).



If you're interested, this was taken with my TC153 and a cheapo
audio-technica stereo mic meant for video recorders 10ft from the stage of
a small church in the centre aisle, on a camera tripod.


http://punter1.users.btopenworld.com..._Flat_Op77.mp3

Pity about the hiss and distortion though.

Ian

Recording a concert by local choir
 

Ian Bell wrote:
Triffid wrote:



1) I have a portable cassette deck that can happily flatten any
minidisc recorder out there, ta very much (Sony TC153).



If you're interested, this was taken with my TC153 and a cheapo
audio-technica stereo mic meant for video recorders 10ft from the
stage of a small church in the centre aisle, on a camera tripod.



http://punter1.users.btopenworld.com..._Flat_Op77.mp3

Pity about the hiss and distortion though.


Would that be hiss and distortion as in 'sex and violence'? There is some
hiss, but not a lot of distortion, and the point was that it's
representative of what you're likely to get if you just walk into a room
armed with a recorder rather than get the chance to set it up properly. I
think it sounds a bit thin, but that's cheapo mics for you.

Recording a concert by local choir
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 02:23:23 +0000 (UTC), "Triffid"
wrote:

1) I have a portable cassette deck that can happily flatten any minidisc
recorder out there, ta very much (Sony TC153).

2) Where are you going to position the mics - can you fit them in on stage,
or will they be in the aisle?

3) How are you going to mount them - you can't spent the whole concert with
them on your lap y'kno.

4) Will the leads be long enough.

5) If it's the pc, the power cords are gonna be a pain, and the laptop WILL
flatten the batteries just at the good bit.

If you're interested, this was taken with my TC153 and a cheapo
audio-technica stereo mic meant for video recorders 10ft from the stage of a
small church in the centre aisle, on a camera tripod.

http://punter1.users.btopenworld.com..._Flat_Op77.mp3

Terrible tape noise in the initial "silence", distortion on the first
forte passage. Not a terribly good advert for your system, I'm
afraid :-)

I'm going to continue to recommend the Rode NT4 stereo mic. Runs on
internal 9v battery or standard phantom power. 2 x XLR and stereo
minijack cables included. Along with a portable minidisk recorder
it's the ideal tool for this job.

Though the stereo mic that came with my minidisk recorder, a tiny
thing marked PC-62, runs a surprisingly close second.

Recording a concert by local choir
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:39:57 +0000 (UTC), "Triffid"
wrote:

Would that be hiss and distortion as in 'sex and violence'? There is some
hiss, but not a lot of distortion, and the point was that it's
representative of what you're likely to get if you just walk into a room
armed with a recorder rather than get the chance to set it up properly. I
think it sounds a bit thin, but that's cheapo mics for you.

I hear severe distortion on the louder passages - probably a simple
overload.

Recording a concert by local choir
 

Triffid wrote:

Ian Bell wrote:
Triffid wrote:



1) I have a portable cassette deck that can happily flatten any
minidisc recorder out there, ta very much (Sony TC153).



If you're interested, this was taken with my TC153 and a cheapo
audio-technica stereo mic meant for video recorders 10ft from the
stage of a small church in the centre aisle, on a camera tripod.




http://punter1.users.btopenworld.com..._Flat_Op77.mp3

Pity about the hiss and distortion though.


Would that be hiss and distortion as in 'sex and violence'? There is some
hiss, but not a lot of distortion, and the point was that it's
representative of what you're likely to get if you just walk into a room
armed with a recorder rather than get the chance to set it up properly. I
think it sounds a bit thin, but that's cheapo mics for you.

The hiss sounds like band limited Dolby hiss typical of cassette recorders.
the distortion could be from a number of sources but the tape itself is a
prime one. I think the only way your TC153 would flatten a minidsik
recorder is if it were dropped on it.

Ian

Recording a concert by local choir
 

I'm going to continue to recommend the Rode NT4 stereo mic. Runs on
internal 9v battery or standard phantom power. 2 x XLR and stereo
minijack cables included. Along with a portable minidisk recorder
it's the ideal tool for this job.

Yep, minidisc all the way - I reckon on 4 safe hours then change the AA
battery, using a Sony MS907 mic for ordinary stuff or a pair of Superlux
HM8-A through a behringer preamp or a yamaha mixer for anything important

Recording a concert by local choir
 

In article ,
Triffid wrote:
1) I have a portable cassette deck that can happily flatten any minidisc
recorder out there, ta very much (Sony TC153).

It would, being heavier.

But not in a subjective test on 99% of programme material. And that's with
a cassette well up to spec, which most in practice aren't.

--
*Give me ambiguity or give me something else.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Recording a concert by local choir - Thanks
 

Thanks for all the excellent advice. I seem to be homing in on a workable,
compact solution, which would mean using the Minidisc player as the recorder
and forgetting the PC. I have an old pair of National Panasonic WM-2244-N
microphones (bought as a pair, reference RP-8135). They are "low impedance"
500ohm dynamic, and seem to work OK with the MD player, providing I set
"high sensitivity". That would avoid the need for pre-amps and electrical
power, since the MD player will record happily for long enough on its
internal battery coupled with a piggy back alkaline AA.

My only concern would be whether the mikes would be sensitive enough when
placed, say, 40 feet from the centre of the choir and orchestra. Might it
help to make the mikes more directional if I place some kind of cones around
them?? Or an umbrella behind??

Thanks for any more thoughts.

Steve

Recording a concert by local choir - Thanks
 

steve wrote in message
...
Thanks for all the excellent advice. I seem to be homing in on a
workable,
compact solution, which would mean using the Minidisc player as the
recorder
and forgetting the PC. I have an old pair of National Panasonic WM-2244-N
microphones (bought as a pair, reference RP-8135). They are "low
impedance"
500ohm dynamic, and seem to work OK with the MD player, providing I set
"high sensitivity". That would avoid the need for pre-amps and electrical
power, since the MD player will record happily for long enough on its
internal battery coupled with a piggy back alkaline AA.

My only concern would be whether the mikes would be sensitive enough when
placed, say, 40 feet from the centre of the choir and orchestra. Might it
help to make the mikes more directional if I place some kind of cones
around
them?? Or an umbrella behind??

If your MD recorder is anything like mine (relatively boggo Sharp), it's
possible to monitor the signal with a half decent pair of headphones and
alter the recording level as you go along to get something reasonable.
Obviously some bits will be louder than others, so you'll want to check
you're not going to get clipping when you set it up.

Recording a concert by local choir - Thanks
 

steve wrote:

Thanks for all the excellent advice. I seem to be homing in on a
workable, compact solution, which would mean using the Minidisc player as
the recorder
and forgetting the PC. I have an old pair of National Panasonic WM-2244-N
microphones (bought as a pair, reference RP-8135). They are "low
impedance" 500ohm dynamic, and seem to work OK with the MD player,
providing I set
"high sensitivity". That would avoid the need for pre-amps and electrical
power, since the MD player will record happily for long enough on its
internal battery coupled with a piggy back alkaline AA.

My only concern would be whether the mikes would be sensitive enough when
placed, say, 40 feet from the centre of the choir and orchestra.

With a choir *and* orchestra you have the potential for some serious use of
dynamic range so when they go full pelt mic sensitivity may not be a
problem. if you are placing the mics 40 feet away I assume that means the
choir + orchestra is about that width? if it is less you can bring them in
closer.

Might it
help to make the mikes more directional if I place some kind of cones
around
them?? Or an umbrella behind??

Definitely not, you would almost certainly introduce unwanted side effects.

Ian

Recording a concert by local choir
 

"steve" wrote in message


I may want to have a bash at making a recording of my wife's choir. I
realize it will not be remotely professional quality, but I hope I
could do better than a portable cassette deck!

I had in mind recording in two ways:
1. On my Sony Minidisk player
2. On my PC, creating a WAV file onto the hard disc, which I could
later put onto CD.

I have an old but decent (I think) pair of Panasonic microphones
which I could experiment with. I assume I would stick them into my
stereo amplifier (circa 1975), and then feed the output into my
Minidisk player and into the sound card of the PC.

I know my home PC (Athlon 1400 processor) seems quite happy at making
decent WAV files, using Musicmatch software. I haven't tried yet
with my work laptop (Intel 900), and I don't know what software I
would use on that.

Thanks for any (polite) suggestions, or any pointers to web sites
that I would find useful.

Were I to use a portable recorder, I'd stick to stereo, use my Nomad Jukebox
3 which records .wav files,, a Behringer MXB1002 mixer and a pair of mics.
My choice of relatively inexpensive mics would be either my Behringer EC8000
(omnidirectional) or MXL 603 (broad directivity cardiod). I'd upload the
recording to my PC and edit and master with editing software ranging from
Goldwave and Audacity (freeware) to Adobe Audition.

Were I to use a PC, I'd probably not want to limit myself to stereo but
enjoy the flexibility of multichannel recording and the ability to pick,
choose and mix from more channels and more microphone positions. For
example, spot micing soloists is a common technique. It would be possible to
use separate mics for any accompanying instrumentalists.

Sound card of choice would be a M-Audio 1010LT, which has 8 analog line
inputs and outputs (includes 2 mic preamps but they lack phantom power). My
choice of mics (above, just more of them) require phantom power, so I'd pick
a mixer with 8 mic preamps, phantom power, and insert points where I could
tap off the outputs of just the mic preamps. I'd use the mixer itself for
real-time monitoring, but do the actual mixing for the final delivered
recording, after-the-fact. In this case I still sense that cost is an issue,
so another larger Behringer mixer, such as the MX2642 would probably be my
choice. I'd do the recording and mixing with my copy of Adobe Audition.

Recording a concert by local choir
 

Ian Bell wrote in message ...
Triffid wrote:

Ian Bell wrote:
Triffid wrote:



1) I have a portable cassette deck that can happily flatten any
minidisc recorder out there, ta very much (Sony TC153).



If you're interested, this was taken with my TC153 and a cheapo
audio-technica stereo mic meant for video recorders 10ft from the
stage of a small church in the centre aisle, on a camera tripod.




http://punter1.users.btopenworld.com..._Flat_Op77.mp3

Pity about the hiss and distortion though.


Would that be hiss and distortion as in 'sex and violence'? There is some
hiss, but not a lot of distortion, and the point was that it's
representative of what you're likely to get if you just walk into a room
armed with a recorder rather than get the chance to set it up properly. I
think it sounds a bit thin, but that's cheapo mics for you.

The hiss sounds like band limited Dolby hiss typical of cassette recorders.
the distortion could be from a number of sources but the tape itself is a
prime one. I think the only way your TC153 would flatten a minidsik
recorder is if it were dropped on it.

Ian

With a laptop, Super Mp3 Recorder at http://www.supermp3recorder.com helps much.

Recording a concert by local choir
 

Bill wrote:

Ian Bell wrote in message
...
Triffid wrote:

Ian Bell wrote:
Triffid wrote:



1) I have a portable cassette deck that can happily flatten any
minidisc recorder out there, ta very much (Sony TC153).



If you're interested, this was taken with my TC153 and a cheapo
audio-technica stereo mic meant for video recorders 10ft from the
stage of a small church in the centre aisle, on a camera tripod.





http://punter1.users.btopenworld.com..._Flat_Op77.mp3

Pity about the hiss and distortion though.


Would that be hiss and distortion as in 'sex and violence'? There is
some hiss, but not a lot of distortion, and the point was that it's
representative of what you're likely to get if you just walk into a
room
armed with a recorder rather than get the chance to set it up properly.
I think it sounds a bit thin, but that's cheapo mics for you.

The hiss sounds like band limited Dolby hiss typical of cassette
recorders. the distortion could be from a number of sources but the tape
itself is a
prime one. I think the only way your TC153 would flatten a minidsik
recorder is if it were dropped on it.

Ian

With a laptop, Super Mp3 Recorder at http://www.supermp3recorder.com helps
much.

YuK!!!!!

Ian

Recording a concert by local choir
 

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Were I to use a portable recorder, I'd stick to stereo, use my Nomad
Jukebox 3 which records .wav files,, a Behringer MXB1002 mixer and a
pair of mics.

Yes. IMHO, the problem with any portable domestic machine is likely to be
the mic amps - far more so than the medium used for the capture.
It's a bit like a pickup pre-amp - regardless of how good a cartridge you
use, and power amp and speakers, if this is poor the results will be poor.

The internal mic amps might well be ok for recording a voice with a hand
held mic, but are rarely adequate for much else.

--
*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

Recording a concert by local choir - Thanks
 

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:35:21 -0000, "steve"
wrote:

My only concern would be whether the mikes would be sensitive enough when
placed, say, 40 feet from the centre of the choir and orchestra. Might it
help to make the mikes more directional if I place some kind of cones around
them?? Or an umbrella behind??


40ft back may be a sensible recording position if the stage is 40ft
wide. If not, get closer. Rather like speaker placement in a
listening room. Putting them in the right place is almost more
important than what they are :-) Especially if you're after any sort
of stereo experience.

Recording a concert by local choir
 

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message

In article ,

Arny Krueger wrote:

Were I to use a portable recorder, I'd stick to stereo, use my Nomad
Jukebox 3 which records .wav files,, a Behringer MXB1002 mixer and a
pair of mics.

Yes. IMHO, the problem with any portable domestic machine is likely
to be the mic amps - far more so than the medium used for the capture.

Clearly true for the JB3 which has SNR around 85-90 dB on its analog input
as I recall. The 16/44-48 .wav file medium is good for 93+ dB SNR. It takes
a pretty clean signal chain to exploit that!

It's a bit like a pickup pre-amp - regardless of how good a cartridge
you use, and power amp and speakers, if this is poor the results will
be poor.

Ironic, given that the JB3 has a simulated mic preamp feature which is just
digital gain. If you use this feature for an application where quality is
important, background noise can ruin your whole day.

Another approach that some have used involves a headphone amp known as the
"Boostaroo" or its Radio Shack equivalent. It is actually a very clean low
distortion, low noise amplifier. Despite the fact that is has only 6 dB of
gain, it can provide an advantage for people who want to record from good
mics but don't want to go with the small mixer.

The internal mic amps might well be ok for recording a voice with a
hand held mic, but are rarely adequate for much else.

In the case of the JB3, there really aren't any internal mic preamps at all.
Just a really-pretty-clean line level analog input.

OTOH, if one were recording head-banging rock at close range with sensitive
omnis like the ECM-8000s, then mic preamps might be optional. However, there
would the phantom power issue. The ECMs only require 12 volts, so a battery
box made up of a couple of 9 volt cells and 5.6 K current-limiting resistors
could do the job.

Recording a concert by local choir
 

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
Another approach that some have used involves a headphone amp known as
the "Boostaroo" or its Radio Shack equivalent. It is actually a very
clean low distortion, low noise amplifier. Despite the fact that is has
only 6 dB of gain, it can provide an advantage for people who want to
record from good mics but don't want to go with the small mixer.

I suggested hiring an SQN for the day. In case you don't know them, they
are small very high quality four channel location recording mixers, with
an excellent limiter and powering for either phantom or T power mics. Pan
pots and simple switchable high pass are the only 'extra' controls, so not
too daunting for a first time user. XLR connectors in and out.
They're pretty well the industry standard in the UK, and cheap to hire on
a daily basis being very rugged. They have internal batteries for mobile
use.

--
*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn