Low-pass filter thoughts
 

As some of you may be aware, I have an on-going speaker rebuild fantasy
bubbling away in the background. The plan is to bi-amp, and part of this
involves a second line output on the pre-amp, to send a signal to the bass
amp. The bass/midrange driver will have no high-pass components in the
crossover - I intend to let the bass roll off naturally, and try to match
the low-pass filter feeding the subs to this roll-off. I'm edging towards
trying to make a prototype filter and would welcome comments...

The pre-amp is a Cambridge A75. The chips it uses are NE5534N op-amps,
evidently low-noise and suitable for high quality audio. My intention was to
use the same chips for my active filter / output stage, on the assumption
that the pre-amp's PSU will be delivering the right voltage(s). However, it
looks like these chips are no longer made - what would be a suitable
alternative?

I know next to nothing about solid state electronics, but my efforts so far
would suggest that I want to use an integrator and a phase inverter. The
integrator provides the actual filtering effect (I think), but is 180
degrees out at the crossover, decreasing to 90 degrees lower down. It would
seem to be a good thing to try and get the subs to be in phase at the point
where they cross over the natural roll-off of the bass/mid drivers/cabs. So,
I reckon the active filter and a phase inverter will do the trick - that
should give me zero degrees shift at crossover, and 90 degrees lag somewhere
low down. (I'm considering a crossover point at something around 60-80Hz.)

Does this sound like it should work?


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

In article , Wally
wrote:


The pre-amp is a Cambridge A75. The chips it uses are NE5534N op-amps,
evidently low-noise and suitable for high quality audio. My intention
was to use the same chips for my active filter / output stage, on the
assumption that the pre-amp's PSU will be delivering the right
voltage(s). However, it looks like these chips are no longer made - what
would be a suitable alternative?

Erm... despite the magazines, etc, I'd say almost anything would do. :-)

My personal favourite has always been the Hitachi HA12017, but these are
now hard to find, and require more components than most. Despite the
hostility of some of those in audio, you could consider the TL071/81
families as used by Quad in the 34 pre-amp. These are quite easy to use.

I know next to nothing about solid state electronics, but my efforts so
far would suggest that I want to use an integrator and a phase inverter.
The integrator provides the actual filtering effect (I think), but is
180 degrees out at the crossover, decreasing to 90 degrees lower down.
It would seem to be a good thing to try and get the subs to be in phase
at the point where they cross over the natural roll-off of the bass/mid
drivers/cabs. So, I reckon the active filter and a phase inverter will
do the trick - that should give me zero degrees shift at crossover, and
90 degrees lag somewhere low down. (I'm considering a crossover point at
something around 60-80Hz.)

Does this sound like it should work?

Dunno. However I'm not sure what you are thinking of an an 'integrator'. A
genuine integrator has a gain that approaches infinite as you go down to
d.c. and hence is nominally unstable. Its phase lag is 90 deg at all
frequencies.

Have a look at some of the pages on filters in the 'Scots Guide'. This
inlcudes some basic stuff on designing simple filters with ICs.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

Wally wrote:

The pre-amp is a Cambridge A75. The chips it uses are NE5534N op-amps,
evidently low-noise and suitable for high quality audio. My intention was to
use the same chips for my active filter / output stage, on the assumption
that the pre-amp's PSU will be delivering the right voltage(s). However, it
looks like these chips are no longer made - what would be a suitable
alternative?

5534's are very common audio op-amps. You might not be able to find the
exact part number that you are looking for but a search for 5534 opamp
on Farnell's website came up with a few alternatives. You might also
want to look at the dual equivalent - the 5532.

You should also bear in mind that many 5534's are not stable at unity
gain without additional compensation components.

Cheers.

James.

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

In article ,
Wally wrote:
The pre-amp is a Cambridge A75. The chips it uses are NE5534N op-amps,
evidently low-noise and suitable for high quality audio. My intention
was to use the same chips for my active filter / output stage, on the
assumption that the pre-amp's PSU will be delivering the right
voltage(s). However, it looks like these chips are no longer made - what
would be a suitable alternative?

Don't think you'd find any problems sourcing NE5534AN - Maplin stock them.

--
*If a thing is worth doing, wouldn't it have been done already?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

"Wally" wrote in message

As some of you may be aware, I have an on-going speaker rebuild
fantasy bubbling away in the background. The plan is to bi-amp, and
part of this involves a second line output on the pre-amp, to send a
signal to the bass amp. The bass/midrange driver will have no
high-pass components in the crossover - I intend to let the bass roll
off naturally, and try to match the low-pass filter feeding the subs
to this roll-off. I'm edging towards trying to make a prototype
filter and would welcome comments...

The pre-amp is a Cambridge A75. The chips it uses are NE5534N op-amps,
evidently low-noise and suitable for high quality audio. My intention
was to use the same chips for my active filter / output stage, on the
assumption that the pre-amp's PSU will be delivering the right
voltage(s). However, it looks like these chips are no longer made -
what would be a suitable alternative?

The 5532 is basically a dual 5534, and readily available.

I know next to nothing about solid state electronics, but my efforts
so far would suggest that I want to use an integrator and a phase
inverter. The integrator provides the actual filtering effect (I
think), but is 180 degrees out at the crossover, decreasing to 90
degrees lower down.

You really need to find "Op Amp CookBook" and/Active Filter Cookbook" and
read it, or both of them.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...841988-2752050

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...841988-2752050

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

Wally wrote:

As some of you may be aware, I have an on-going speaker rebuild fantasy
bubbling away in the background. The plan is to bi-amp, and part of this
involves a second line output on the pre-amp, to send a signal to the bass
amp. The bass/midrange driver will have no high-pass components in the
crossover - I intend to let the bass roll off naturally, and try to match
the low-pass filter feeding the subs to this roll-off. I'm edging towards
trying to make a prototype filter and would welcome comments...

The pre-amp is a Cambridge A75. The chips it uses are NE5534N op-amps,
evidently low-noise and suitable for high quality audio. My intention was to
use the same chips for my active filter / output stage, on the assumption
that the pre-amp's PSU will be delivering the right voltage(s). However, it
looks like these chips are no longer made - what would be a suitable
alternative?

5534s are most certainly still made. What made you think they aren't ?

5534s are single op-amps that need 'compensation' for stable unity gain
applications - like typical filters. You would be better off with the 5532 dual
op-amp version that is unity gain stable.

5534 series op-amps have significant input bias current. You may be better off
with a fet input op-amp.


I know next to nothing about solid state electronics, but my efforts so far
would suggest that I want to use an integrator and a phase inverter. The
integrator provides the actual filtering effect (I think), but is 180
degrees out at the crossover, decreasing to 90 degrees lower down. It would
seem to be a good thing to try and get the subs to be in phase at the point
where they cross over the natural roll-off of the bass/mid drivers/cabs. So,
I reckon the active filter and a phase inverter will do the trick - that
should give me zero degrees shift at crossover, and 90 degrees lag somewhere
low down. (I'm considering a crossover point at something around 60-80Hz.)

No - you don't want an integrator - you want a filter ! Google should be able to
help.

Knowing " next to nothing about solid state electronics " does not bode well for
this project.


Graham

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Wally
wrote:


The pre-amp is a Cambridge A75. The chips it uses are NE5534N
op-amps, evidently low-noise and suitable for high quality audio. My
intention was to use the same chips for my active filter / output
stage, on the assumption that the pre-amp's PSU will be delivering
the right voltage(s). However, it looks like these chips are no
longer made - what would be a suitable alternative?

Erm... despite the magazines, etc, I'd say almost anything would do.
:-)

I dare say. :-)


My personal favourite has always been the Hitachi HA12017, but these
are now hard to find, and require more components than most. Despite
the hostility of some of those in audio, you could consider the
TL071/81 families as used by Quad in the 34 pre-amp. These are quite
easy to use.

Righto.


Dunno. However I'm not sure what you are thinking of an an
'integrator'. A genuine integrator has a gain that approaches
infinite as you go down to d.c. and hence is nominally unstable. Its
phase lag is 90 deg at all frequencies.

Then the thing I read about must have a different name... :-)


Have a look at some of the pages on filters in the 'Scots Guide'. This
inlcudes some basic stuff on designing simple filters with ICs.

Scots Guide? One of your pages?


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

James Perrett wrote:

5534's are very common audio op-amps. You might not be able to find
the exact part number that you are looking for but a search for 5534
opamp on Farnell's website came up with a few alternatives. You might
also want to look at the dual equivalent - the 5532.

If I'm right in my thinking that I need a filter stage and a phase inverter,
the dual might be the better choice. I'll do some searching.


You should also bear in mind that many 5534's are not stable at unity
gain without additional compensation components.

I'll cross that bridge when I get nearer to it- not sure yet if unity gain
is what I'm after. I was planning to try and find the point where the signal
goes into the existing output, and building a second output from that point.
If unity gain is an issue, can I make it with suficient gain to be sure of
stability, and then attuenuate the output? It'll probably be feeding a SS
amp that wants a line level input.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Don't think you'd find any problems sourcing NE5534AN - Maplin stock
them.

I haven't looked for them yet - found a Phillips data sheet that said hey
were discontinued, so assumed they might be hard to find.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

Arny Krueger wrote:

The 5532 is basically a dual 5534, and readily available.

Noted.


You really need to find "Op Amp CookBook" and/Active Filter
Cookbook" and read it, or both of them.

Cheers. I'll see what I can come up with.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

In article ,
Wally wrote:
Don't think you'd find any problems sourcing NE5534AN - Maplin stock
them.

I haven't looked for them yet - found a Phillips data sheet that said hey
were discontinued, so assumed they might be hard to find.

Could be that refers to an 'N' suffix.

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

Pooh Bear wrote:



Wally wrote:

As some of you may be aware, I have an on-going speaker rebuild fantasy
bubbling away in the background. The plan is to bi-amp, and part of this
involves a second line output on the pre-amp, to send a signal to the
bass amp. The bass/midrange driver will have no high-pass components in
the crossover - I intend to let the bass roll off naturally, and try to
match the low-pass filter feeding the subs to this roll-off. I'm edging
towards trying to make a prototype filter and would welcome comments...

The pre-amp is a Cambridge A75. The chips it uses are NE5534N op-amps,
evidently low-noise and suitable for high quality audio. My intention was
to use the same chips for my active filter / output stage, on the
assumption that the pre-amp's PSU will be delivering the right
voltage(s). However, it looks like these chips are no longer made - what
would be a suitable alternative?

5534s are most certainly still made. What made you think they aren't ?


Available from many places. Best audio op amp ever made IMHO. Try Maplins
for starters.

Ian

--
Ian Bell

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

Wally wrote:

As some of you may be aware, I have an on-going speaker rebuild fantasy
bubbling away in the background. The plan is to bi-amp, and part of this
involves a second line output on the pre-amp, to send a signal to the bass
amp. The bass/midrange driver will have no high-pass components in the
crossover - I intend to let the bass roll off naturally, and try to match
the low-pass filter feeding the subs to this roll-off. I'm edging towards
trying to make a prototype filter and would welcome comments...

The pre-amp is a Cambridge A75. The chips it uses are NE5534N op-amps,
evidently low-noise and suitable for high quality audio. My intention was to
use the same chips for my active filter / output stage, on the assumption
that the pre-amp's PSU will be delivering the right voltage(s). However, it
looks like these chips are no longer made - what would be a suitable
alternative?

I know next to nothing about solid state electronics, but my efforts so far
would suggest that I want to use an integrator and a phase inverter. The
integrator provides the actual filtering effect (I think), but is 180
degrees out at the crossover, decreasing to 90 degrees lower down. It would
seem to be a good thing to try and get the subs to be in phase at the point
where they cross over the natural roll-off of the bass/mid drivers/cabs. So,
I reckon the active filter and a phase inverter will do the trick - that
should give me zero degrees shift at crossover, and 90 degrees lag somewhere
low down. (I'm considering a crossover point at something around 60-80Hz.)

Does this sound like it should work?


No.

As you know nothing about electronics you should start with this:

http://www.bmm-electronics.com/Product.asp?Product_ID=7

You really are better off with steep high and low pass filters.
trying to match the hf response of a sub to the lf response of a
mid-range box is difficult, and putting a lot of power through the
mid-range below its resonant frequency is asking for trouble.

--
Eiron.

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

Eiron wrote:

You really are better off with steep high and low pass filters.
trying to match the hf response of a sub to the lf response of a
mid-range box is difficult, and putting a lot of power through the
mid-range below its resonant frequency is asking for trouble.

The 'midrange' is a KEF B110, which I believe has a sufficiently low
resonant frequency to serve as a bass driver as well.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 20:13:32 +0100, "Wally"
wrote:

hi.
have a look at this http://www.linkwitzlab.com/
theres lots of info here
regards
bob

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

Wally wrote:

Eiron wrote:


You really are better off with steep high and low pass filters.
Trying to match the hf response of a sub to the lf response of a
mid-range box is difficult, and putting a lot of power through the
mid-range below its resonant frequency is asking for trouble.


The 'midrange' is a KEF B110, which I believe has a sufficiently low
resonant frequency to serve as a bass driver as well.

I'm listening to one at the moment.
I like them but Stuart P thinks that the sound from a Bextrene cone
collapses at low levels.

Here are some specs for a typical box using the B110:
http://www.mhennessy.f9.co.uk/rogers/ls35a_page4.jpg

If you use an open baffle or reflex box then the cone will flap about
dangerously at moderate power levels (without a high-pass filter)
You should be OK with a closed box and up to a 100w amp
but I would still recommend a 2-way 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley crossover
at 100hz or higher.

--
Eiron.

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Wally wrote:
Don't think you'd find any problems sourcing NE5534AN - Maplin stock
them.

I haven't looked for them yet - found a Phillips data sheet that said hey
were discontinued, so assumed they might be hard to find.

Could be that refers to an 'N' suffix.


Somewhat strangely it seems that Philips *have* discontinued it !

http://www.semiconductors.philips.co...E5534_A_2.html

See note and link towards the bottom of the page.

TI and JRC still make them I'm sure - and the 5532 as well.


Graham

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:39:33 +0100, Ian Bell
wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote:

Wally wrote:

As some of you may be aware, I have an on-going speaker rebuild fantasy
bubbling away in the background. The plan is to bi-amp, and part of this
involves a second line output on the pre-amp, to send a signal to the
bass amp. The bass/midrange driver will have no high-pass components in
the crossover - I intend to let the bass roll off naturally, and try to
match the low-pass filter feeding the subs to this roll-off. I'm edging
towards trying to make a prototype filter and would welcome comments...

The pre-amp is a Cambridge A75. The chips it uses are NE5534N op-amps,
evidently low-noise and suitable for high quality audio. My intention was
to use the same chips for my active filter / output stage, on the
assumption that the pre-amp's PSU will be delivering the right
voltage(s). However, it looks like these chips are no longer made - what
would be a suitable alternative?

5534s are most certainly still made. What made you think they aren't ?

Available from many places. Best audio op amp ever made IMHO. Try Maplins
for starters.

If it's good enough for Meridian output stages, then it's good enough
for me! :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

In article , Wally
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

Have a look at some of the pages on filters in the 'Scots Guide'. This
inlcudes some basic stuff on designing simple filters with ICs.

Scots Guide? One of your pages?

Erm... Hundreds, actually. ;-)

Have a look at the 'Scots Guide' address in my sig, below. When there, go
to the section on 'Analog and Audio', and you will then find a link to some
pages on active filters. There are bits on related topics scattered around
the 'Guide'.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

If it's good enough for Meridian output stages, then it's good enough
for me! :-)

They're in the 203? That means that my audio signal goes through nothing but
5534s before hitting the valves (which are soaked in swamp water to give 'em
soul...).


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 19:33:58 +0100, "Wally"
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

If it's good enough for Meridian output stages, then it's good enough
for me! :-)

They're in the 203? That means that my audio signal goes through nothing but
5534s before hitting the valves (which are soaked in swamp water to give 'em
soul...).

They are indeed in the 203. Ditch the valves and you'll have some
chance of hearing what the performer intended (it's not all soul
music, y'know!)........................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

In article , Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:
On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 19:33:58 +0100, "Wally"
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

If it's good enough for Meridian output stages, then it's good enough
for me! :-)

They're in the 203? That means that my audio signal goes through
nothing but 5534s before hitting the valves (which are soaked in swamp
water to give 'em soul...).

They are indeed in the 203. Ditch the valves and you'll have some chance
of hearing what the performer intended (it's not all soul music,
y'know!)........................

If you/anyone has available circuit diagrams for the 200/203/263 I would
love to have a copy. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

Eiron wrote:
Wally wrote:

Eiron wrote:


You really are better off with steep high and low pass filters.
Trying to match the hf response of a sub to the lf response of a
mid-range box is difficult, and putting a lot of power through the
mid-range below its resonant frequency is asking for trouble.



The 'midrange' is a KEF B110, which I believe has a sufficiently low
resonant frequency to serve as a bass driver as well.


I'm listening to one at the moment.
I like them but Stuart P thinks that the sound from a Bextrene cone
collapses at low levels.

Here are some specs for a typical box using the B110:
http://www.mhennessy.f9.co.uk/rogers/ls35a_page4.jpg

If you use an open baffle or reflex box then the cone will flap about
dangerously at moderate power levels (without a high-pass filter)
You should be OK with a closed box and up to a 100w amp
but I would still recommend a 2-way 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley crossover
at 100hz or higher.


Very good active crossovers can be obtained from Marchand Electronics.
Fully assembled variable crossover frequency (XM9) = $700. Single
crossover frequency kit (XM1)= $100

No connection. just a happy customer

N

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 00:03:27 +0100, Eiron wrote:

Wally wrote:

Eiron wrote:


You really are better off with steep high and low pass filters.
Trying to match the hf response of a sub to the lf response of a
mid-range box is difficult, and putting a lot of power through the
mid-range below its resonant frequency is asking for trouble.


The 'midrange' is a KEF B110, which I believe has a sufficiently low
resonant frequency to serve as a bass driver as well.

I'm listening to one at the moment.
I like them but Stuart P thinks that the sound from a Bextrene cone
collapses at low levels.

Here are some specs for a typical box using the B110:
http://www.mhennessy.f9.co.uk/rogers/ls35a_page4.jpg

If you use an open baffle or reflex box then the cone will flap about
dangerously at moderate power levels (without a high-pass filter)
You should be OK with a closed box and up to a 100w amp
but I would still recommend a 2-way 4th-order Linkwitz-Riley crossover
at 100hz or higher.

The B110 should always be used in a small enclosure of less than ten
litres - and yes, the low-level detail does collapse as you wind down
the volume. That's why no one uses Bextrene any more.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:

Scots Guide? One of your pages?

Erm... Hundreds, actually. ;-)

Have a look at the 'Scots Guide' address in my sig, below. When
there, go to the section on 'Analog and Audio', and you will then
find a link to some pages on active filters. There are bits on
related topics scattered around the 'Guide'.

Thanks, Jim. I'll have a look over the next few days - I've got a borrowed
scope coming after ther weekend (my own has packed in - one trace down, and
nil timebase - can't do much with a vertical line!), so I'll be wanting to
make a start with the breadboard by then.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

Low-pass filter thoughts
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I haven't looked for them yet - found a Phillips data sheet that
said hey were discontinued, so assumed they might be hard to find.

Could be that refers to an 'N' suffix.

I've sourced some 5532s with an A-something(P?) suffix, which apparently
means they have a guaranteed noise spec.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk