Stewart. Do you realise....
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
Agreed. The problems were not with the mics themselves, or their
valve front ends, but the psu, and mic preamp. As I remember they
used to come from the "box" straight into the desk at line level.
But those old mics do sound absolutely wonderful on large
string sections.

Of course in those days there was no DIN standard output level for mics.
But none of the valve ones I was familiar with (mainly AKG) gave line
level out under normal circumstances. Close on a trumpet etc yes.

The "boxes" to which I refer were grey hammer finish, six inputs and outputs
per box, and placed strategically around the studio floorspace. They had a
triangular logo, so either Neumann or Telefunken. It may well be that they
were built for Decca, which was a fifty percent shareholder in Telefunken,
and shared a record label TelDec. Each input had the polarity selector of
which
I spoke, and the output was typically 0dBm.

We used to rig at night before a morning session. It took a long time to
set up the
polarity of the string mics, and then wind them up on their high booms.
When I
was an assistant I often sat in the control room of Decca III (which was
huge) with
the lights out all the mics open listening to the ambience. "The Stone
Tapes"
came to mind.

Iain.

Stewart. Do you realise....
 

"Iain M Churches" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message

They indeed are. Although I've never seen a valve U87. And mine
certainly aren't.

I don't think it's performance is much different to its valve predecessor,
(U67 wasn't it?)

As a rule, AES articles don't mention specific products.

I think the Royce Hall project of which I spoke has been written about
recently.


It is generally understood that a very large proportion (most???) of the
*professional* microphones in the world are either Shure SM57 and close
derivatives or EV 635 and close derivatives. Both are magnetic, entirely
passive and contain no active components such as tubes.

I like to use Beyers and Shures on drum kits, (because I can't stand the
thought
of a drummer thrashing a Neumann suspended above the top cymbals:-)
Otherwise I use condensers.

By the way. do you ever get to record live drums?. I have a feeling it
may be a dying art in studios. At the start of the digi era, we took to
recording
a full kit guide track (to a click) and then one drum at a time
:-((((((((( Deadly.
I do quite a lot of jazz, where the kit is alive and kicking:-)


Iain

I'd be interested in what Beyers & Shures you use on the drum kit. I do
sound for a regular gigging 10 piece band and use a condenser for high hat,
SM57's for snare and toms and Shure SM91 for kick. The band plans to record
soon & I'll be using my GL2200 board so would appreciate any tips you've
gained along the way.

Mike

Stewart. Do you realise....
 

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:53:29 +0300, "Iain M Churches"
wrote:

That a very large percentage of microphones
used in digital recordings are valve microphones.

Of course I do. Not the majority, but certainly a goodly proportion of
the more carefully made recordings.

Oh dear :-((

Neumann 49, 50, 56, 64 and U87 are very
popular.

Indeed they are, and for good reason.

Don't believe me? of course you don't:-)

Why would I not?

BTW, my own personal favourite 'do it all' mic is the STC 4038, but
that wouldn't last long in the kind of close-miking hell that you
Decca guys started with 'Phase Four'! :-)

Check the AES Journal (of which I am sure you are
a member, as the A stands for Audio and the E for
Engineering)

Also read some of the excellent recent
articles in Studio Sound,
to which I am sure you subscribe.

I don't subsribe, but I read it from time to time. It's much more a
pro-audio magazine than of interest to the replay end of audio.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart. Do you realise....
 

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:50:06 +0300, "Iain M Churches"
wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
Iain, it would help if you provided a reference when quoting - it's the
convention, as well as the polite thing to do.

Sorry Dave. Not intentional.

Valve mics in digital recording

Perhaps a fair percentage of recordings might involve the use of some
valve microphone. As a percentage of mics used in all recordings, it would
be small.

Neither of us can really what is going on outside our own recording
spheres with accuracy.

I had a message yesterday from a former colleague working at this moment
in LA ( I think the location is Royce Hall)
All mics on the sessions are valve. 47, 49,50, 56, 64

So, that's 100% for that project:-)))

I'm curious as to why you'd think anyone would have problem with that?
Microphones are part of the *performance*, they all have their own
sound, and any good studio keeps a good selection of quite different
mics, if only to flatter the poorer singers!

The need for utter neutrality comes *after* the recording has been
purchased by the end user - or don't you care that some valvie has
decided to alter the balnce you carefully crafted into the recording?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart. Do you realise....
 

In article ,
Kurt Hamster wrote:
PS. Just had an e-mail from an outside observer, of this NG
who reminds me that a large number of "state of the art"
compressors have a valve front end.

As do transmitters. But most don't use either at home.

So people who receive transmissions at home aren't 'using' the
transmitters then?

Suddenly you're concerned with the signal that arrives at your home.

So why mangle it afterwards?

--
*Nostalgia isn't what is used to be.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Stewart. Do you realise....
 

In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
I like to use Beyers and Shures on drum kits, (because I can't stand the
thought of a drummer thrashing a Neumann suspended above the top
cymbals:-) Otherwise I use condensers.

By the way. do you ever get to record live drums?. I have a feeling it
may be a dying art in studios. At the start of the digi era, we took to
recording a full kit guide track (to a click) and then one drum at a
time
:-((((((((( Deadly.
I do quite a lot of jazz, where the kit is alive and kicking:-)

Yes. Miking up every single part of a kit for one pass is often the law of
diminishing returns. You'll usually nead 'gates on the toms, and I'm not a
great lover of those. Often the traditional tree mic setup will sound just
fine with a decent drummer and kit. Otherwise, it's lots of time and work.
;-)

--
*Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Stewart. Do you realise....
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
I like to use Beyers and Shures on drum kits, (because I can't stand the
thought of a drummer thrashing a Neumann suspended above the top
cymbals:-) Otherwise I use condensers.

By the way. do you ever get to record live drums?. I have a feeling it
may be a dying art in studios. At the start of the digi era, we took to
recording a full kit guide track (to a click) and then one drum at a
time
:-((((((((( Deadly.
I do quite a lot of jazz, where the kit is alive and kicking:-)

Yes. Miking up every single part of a kit for one pass is often the law of
diminishing returns. You'll usually nead 'gates on the toms, and I'm not a
great lover of those. Often the traditional tree mic setup will sound just
fine with a decent drummer and kit. Otherwise, it's lots of time and work.
;-)

Thanks Iain, yes I've got the time and work bit (or trial & error in my
case) I'll borrow some kit to gate the toms just to see how I get on. I've
also has a suggestion on mic'ing up the snare is to put the same type of mic
also below the snare antiphase (I've got a phasechange button on each mixer
channel) Any comments on this?

I'd like to try the tree method also... By the way did you take any M50's
home with you as I'd love to try the Decca tree ;-)

--
*Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Stewart. Do you realise....
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
I like to use Beyers and Shures on drum kits, (because I can't stand the
thought of a drummer thrashing a Neumann suspended above the top
cymbals:-) Otherwise I use condensers.

By the way. do you ever get to record live drums?.

Yes. Miking up every single part of a kit for one pass is often the law of
diminishing returns.
Agreed.

You'll usually nead 'gates on the toms, and I'm not a
great lover of those.

I used to use "Aphex" I could never get them to work as I wanted.
Very time consuming.

Do you double mic the snare? I often use one over and one under
(remember the phase switch:-)

Often the traditional tree mic setup will sound just
fine with a decent drummer and kit. Otherwise, it's lots of time and work.

I don't mind it being a lot of work. We get paid by the hour:-)
(or is it a flat rate for a project now in your neck of the woods?)

But a drum track has to live, sound natural. It is my belief that it
cannot be achieved with a click track and recording one drum at a time.

I try to avoid pop music. I am a little averse to musical bricklaying:-))
Life's too short. Though I do like to listen to the finished product.

Funny you use the word "tree" that's a Decca term (do a web search) for the
classical microphone set up devised by Roy Wallis and Arthur Wilkinson, back
in the days when the British Army had muskets, and Pontius was a pilot.

Cheers


Iain

Stewart. Do you realise....
 

In article ,
Mike Gilmour wrote:
Yes. Miking up every single part of a kit for one pass is often the
law of diminishing returns. You'll usually nead 'gates on the toms,
and I'm not a great lover of those. Often the traditional tree mic
setup will sound just fine with a decent drummer and kit. Otherwise,
it's lots of time and work. ;-)

Thanks Iain, yes I've got the time and work bit (or trial & error in my
case) I'll borrow some kit to gate the toms just to see how I get on.
I've also has a suggestion on mic'ing up the snare is to put the same
type of mic also below the snare antiphase (I've got a phasechange
button on each mixer channel) Any comments on this?

I'd like to try the tree method also... By the way did you take any
M50's home with you as I'd love to try the Decca tree ;-)

Heh heh. Freudian slip. I of course meant three.

--
*OK, who stopped payment on my reality check?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Stewart. Do you realise....
 

"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
I like to use Beyers and Shures on drum kits, (because I can't stand the
thought of a drummer thrashing a Neumann suspended above the top
cymbals:-) Otherwise I use condensers.

Thanks Iain, yes I've got the time and work bit (or trial & error in my
case) I'll borrow some kit to gate the toms just to see how I get on. I've
also has a suggestion on mic'ing up the snare is to put the same type of
mic also below the snare antiphase (I've got a phase change button on each
mixer channel) Any comments on this?

I have just covered this in another missive.
Try without the gates. I am seldom hapy with them.
If you set them too high you get no tom at all:-))
You can put a good dynamic quite close to the top
head of the floor tom, or try from underneath too. Experiment.

At RCA we had a chap who tuned the kit. He is not much of a drummer,
but a brilliant tuner. You can't get a good sound from a poor kit.´Lots of
time, lots of gaffer tape:-))

A long long time ago, I was first assistant on an album "Baker Gurvitz
Army" with Adrian Gurvits leading the band which had two drummers,
Ginger Baker and the drummer from the Moody Blues (whos name escapes
me. I have been at the Mouton Cadet) Oh yes, Graham Edge.

Ginger Baker sent his kit on in advance. It was the most dreadful battered
Premier kit you have ever seen. We set it up, and put the mics out. As
assistant it was my job to hit each drum for the engineer to get the levels
and
put some rough EQ in place. It sounded awful. Next day, Ginger Baker
arrived.
He hit 10dB louder than I could manage, with incredible precision.
It sounded wonderful:-)


I'd like to try the tree method also... By the way did you take any M50's
home with you as I'd love to try the Decca tree ;-)

No such luck. We had to count every mic back into the cupboard.
Discipline was strict. What ever time you finished in the morning, you
had to strip down, and clear completely if you were not continuing in
the same studio. We had 200 condenser mics between three studios,
plus a few dynamics. The senior engineer was responsible for the mic
cupboard, and a detailed list was kept of the whereabouts of each and
every microphone.


Iain