A Audio, hi-fi and car audio  forum. Audio Banter

Go Back   Home » Audio Banter forum » UK Audio Newsgroups » uk.rec.audio (General Audio and Hi-Fi)
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

uk.rec.audio (General Audio and Hi-Fi) (uk.rec.audio) Discussion and exchange of hi-fi audio equipment.

Ming Da phono stage show n tell



 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51 (permalink)  
Old December 3rd 04, 04:05 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,051
Default Ming Da phono stage show n tell

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 02:17:42 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:




Don Pearce wrote:



Teflon's Dielectic Constant is actually quite good, really, go look at
the DC tables.

What on earth is a "good dielectric constant"? And it is nothing to do
with Er that makes teflon poor, it is the charge retention.


The values of proprietary grades like 'Teflon' may vary a bit from one
sample/type to another. However the values I have for PTFE and HDPE are in
the range of epsilon-r 2.2 (HDPE) and 2.1 (PTFE) with both having tan
deltas of about 0.0002 and resistivities around 10^15 Ohmm. Don't know the
charge storage property values, though.

I'd be more concerned with things like noise, distortion, interference,
etc, if both the source and the load have high resistances. i.e. not really
anything to do with the choice of capacitor material. Although that said,
maybe high resistances would make the cap imperfections easier to spot. (?)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
  #52 (permalink)  
Old December 3rd 04, 04:08 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Jim Lesurf
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,051
Default Ming Da phono stage show n tell

In article , Arny Krueger
wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message

In article , Patrick Turner
wrote:
We engineers would all realise the output impudence would be 100
ohms, or 1,000 ohms.


And the inpedance 100k? ;-)


...probably its actually the recommended minimum load impedance.


That would make more sense that choosing to have an actual o/p impedance of
100k. However it still seems like an unsettlingly high value to me for
general use.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html
  #54 (permalink)  
Old December 3rd 04, 05:39 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Dave Plowman (News)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,872
Default Ming Da phono stage show n tell

In article ,
Phil North wrote:
If the PS in the pre-amp is up to it and there's room, I'd add a pair
of cathode followers. This will make it compatible with pretty well
any amp you try to drive it from, and free from any likely cable
problems.


Does PS mean power source?


Power supply. Basically the transformer, rectifier and capacitors that
supply the HT (high tension) and LT (low tension for heaters etc)

There might be room if they aren't too big,
pic 5 in my original post has the bottom taken off. I don't think I'm up
to this yet though.


Well, it would just be an extra valve - something like an ECC82 would be
my choice.

If space is a problem, and you wish it to retain the same external
appearance, a decent op amp will do exactly the same job...

Just googled for op amp and found this:


"The op-amp is basically a differential amplifier having a large voltage
gain, very high input impedance and low output impedance."


It's also tiny in valve terms - but would need its own power supply.
They come in all sorts of types and have many applications. One such would
be as an output buffer to convert a high impedance to a very low one
without altering the gain, and the performance while doing this would have
absolutely no effect on the 'valve' sound whatsoever.

Would that be why it sounded good on Keith's triode amp (input
impediance 100kOhms) but bass weak on the Dynavox (input impediance
20kOhms)?


Absolutely. If you have a lower input impedance than the output one,
you'll loose bass at the very least.

In the days when valves were common for pro use, so were inter stage
matching transformers. A valve mic pre-amp would have both an input and
output matching transformer. With all that implies for cost and
performance.

--
*How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #55 (permalink)  
Old December 3rd 04, 06:10 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Chris Morriss
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 530
Default Ming Da phono stage show n tell

In message , Don Pearce
writes
On 03 Dec 2004 12:35:55 GMT, ohawker (Andy
Evans) wrote:

At 100k output impedance, if you connect it to a power amplifier with a cable
whose capacitance is as little as 100pF, the
response will be 3dB down at 15kHz. This is most definitely NOT a competently
designed amplifier.

Speaking in general and not about this product, You could make a case for 100k
out of a preamp into 1Meg on the tube amp side. The case you would make
(assuming short cables) is that you could then use a superior output cap of
smaller value and retain bass response. This is what I do - I use ten Russian
teflon .1 caps together to make 1uF. The teflon caps are so superior to others
I've used that I don't mind adjusting the rest of the parameters. This is
purely DIY, of course, and you wouldn't design this in a production model -
just as you say - because of system matching. But there is a
theoretical side.

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:-
http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.


Two things:
Teflon is not a great dielectric - why would you do this?

A single .1 cap into 1Meg has a response that goes down to about 1.5Hz
- why do you need to go to the expense and trouble of paralleling up
ten of them? Certainly the output transformer can't do anything useful
with it - even if there were any music down there.

That seems to be both the theory and the practicality saying don't
bother.

So what gives?

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com


PTFE is an excellent dielectric, perhaps the best dielectric for wound
foils. (Read up what the legendary Bob Pease says about it). The loss
is low, and the dielectric absorption is very low.
--
Chris Morriss
  #56 (permalink)  
Old December 3rd 04, 07:28 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Fleetie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 449
Default Ming Da phono stage show n tell

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
However, I favour using a test disc for final measurements. If some are
going to use flowery language to describe comparisons it's still nice to
know what the overall frequency response of the actual paths you're
comparing are. If it sounds bass light it probably could be measured.


But using a test disc, you're also measuring the response of the cartridge.
More "holistic", but not directly addressing the aim of measuring the
response of the phono stage alone.

BTW, "florid", meet Dave Plowman, and vice versa.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.fleetie.demon.co.uk


  #58 (permalink)  
Old December 3rd 04, 09:30 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Dave Plowman (News)
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,872
Default Ming Da phono stage show n tell

In article ,
Fleetie wrote:
However, I favour using a test disc for final measurements. If some
are going to use flowery language to describe comparisons it's still
nice to know what the overall frequency response of the actual paths
you're comparing are. If it sounds bass light it probably could be
measured.


But using a test disc, you're also measuring the response of the
cartridge. More "holistic", but not directly addressing the aim of
measuring the response of the phono stage alone.


But the results are always described after listening to vinyl. So the
response of the cart and its cable *are* important too for subjective
results.

Of course you'd measure the amp on its own first.

BTW, "florid", meet Dave Plowman, and vice versa.


'Florid' and 'flowery' mean the same in this context - if you check any
thesaurus.

But not perhaps when describing the noses of some who post here.

--
*It's lonely at the top, but you eat better.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #59 (permalink)  
Old December 4th 04, 07:35 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Stewart Pinkerton
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,367
Default Ming Da phono stage show n tell

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:33:50 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:22:28 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:26:46 GMT,
(Don Pearce)
wrote:

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 02:17:42 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:


Two things:
Teflon is not a great dielectric - why would you do this?

Teflon's Dielectic Constant is actually quite good, really, go look at the DC
tables.

What on earth is a "good dielectric constant"? And it is nothing to do
with Er that makes teflon poor, it is the charge retention.


Ahhh. I was as puzzled as Patrick by your remark, as Teflon is
generally regarded as just about the *best* dielectric for caps and
cables. Charge retention, while the bane of the sample/hold designer,
is simply not an issue with a conventional a.c. signal.


Mechanically it is hard to handle, and electrically it is actually not
as good as polypropylene. There isn't that much in it, though.


Mechanically it is vastly superior, as it doesn't melt when the cable
or capacitor is soldered! Electrically, it is significantly superior
to polypropylene, which is why it's used in microwave gear such as
semi-rigid coax. Where are you getting your information?
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering
  #60 (permalink)  
Old December 4th 04, 08:34 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Don Pearce
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,412
Default Ming Da phono stage show n tell

On Sat, 4 Dec 2004 08:35:56 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 21:33:50 GMT, (Don Pearce)
wrote:

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 18:22:28 +0000 (UTC), Stewart Pinkerton
wrote:

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 15:26:46 GMT,
(Don Pearce)
wrote:

On Sat, 04 Dec 2004 02:17:42 +1100, Patrick Turner
wrote:

Two things:
Teflon is not a great dielectric - why would you do this?

Teflon's Dielectic Constant is actually quite good, really, go look at the DC
tables.

What on earth is a "good dielectric constant"? And it is nothing to do
with Er that makes teflon poor, it is the charge retention.

Ahhh. I was as puzzled as Patrick by your remark, as Teflon is
generally regarded as just about the *best* dielectric for caps and
cables. Charge retention, while the bane of the sample/hold designer,
is simply not an issue with a conventional a.c. signal.


Mechanically it is hard to handle, and electrically it is actually not
as good as polypropylene. There isn't that much in it, though.


Mechanically it is vastly superior, as it doesn't melt when the cable
or capacitor is soldered! Electrically, it is significantly superior
to polypropylene, which is why it's used in microwave gear such as
semi-rigid coax. Where are you getting your information?


Can't remember is the problem. This stuff has been swimming around my
brain for a few years now, but I can't for the life of me remember the
source. I just remember being surprised at the results, and looking
fairly critically at the tests that determined them.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.SEO by vBSEO 3.0.0
Copyright ©2004-2025 Audio Banter.
The comments are property of their posters.