This is getting silly
 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...95496 37&rd=1

--
Nick

"Life has surface noise" - John Peel 1939-2004

This is getting silly
 

Looks very nice. I don't see how two EL84 in triode will give you 10w per
channel, but the basic elements are there, including a choke which must be
about 3H by the look of it. A bit of space inside for upgrading componants.
Very tempting, in fact. Anybody heard one?

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

This is getting silly
 

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
Looks very nice. I don't see how two EL84 in triode will give you 10w per
channel, but the basic elements are there, including a choke which must be
about 3H by the look of it. A bit of space inside for upgrading
componants.
Very tempting, in fact. Anybody heard one?

=== Andy Evans ===

This kind of product is a two-edged sword.
* It attracts people to valve audio - which is a good thing.
* The budget to which it is built, means that it cannot show
what a good valve amp can really do - which is not such
a good thing.

And 4mV of hum?

That's pretty poor.
By shirtcuff calculation, I make that only -67dB ref 10W

Iain

This is getting silly
 

In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
This kind of product is a two-edged sword.
* It attracts people to valve audio - which is a good thing.

Why? Surely the performance of an amp is the important thing, not how it
achieves it?

* The budget to which it is built, means that it cannot show
what a good valve amp can really do - which is not such
a good thing.

By the same brush it is. Might put some off looking for 'magic' that
doesn't exist.

--
*A journey of a thousand sites begins with a single click *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

This is getting silly
 

* The budget to which it is built, means that it cannot show what a good valve
amp can really do - which is not such a good thing.

Of course valve amps can be built which are universes better than this, but we
may be jumping the gun here - it has decent valves and even a choke (unusual)
so it looks as if the designer put a modicum of thought into it. It may not
sound too different from something like a Leak Stereo 20 - probably clearer but
with less warmth and depth. I imagine the OPTs are a good deal smaller, but
that should give clear midrange if they are well designed. I'd like to hear
one. I don't think price is so much of an issue these days - the Chinese
clearly can design well, viz. the new raft of valves they're producing like the
845B, and it looks as if they can both design well and price cheap. They are
also tayloring their products more to the USA boutique market - 6SN7 preamps
where previously it would have been ECC83s or the like. I think this amp uses
5670 in the input which is a Chinese 6N3 - not a great valve, but easy to sub a
nice NOS 5670, which isn't shabby. The GE 5670 is reputedle pretty good, and
currently dirt cheap. WE396A is reputedly nice, Raytheon Black plate 2C51,
early 1950s, incredibly smooth, and some 1960s JAN 5670s not bad


=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.

This is getting silly
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
This kind of product is a two-edged sword.
* It attracts people to valve audio - which is a good thing.

Why? Surely the performance of an amp is the important thing, not how it
achieves it?

True. But there are many people who do not even know there is
an alternative to SS. Perhaps hearing even an entry-level
budget valve amp might kindle interest enought to pursue
the matter further.

By the same brush it is. Might put some off looking for 'magic' that
doesn't exist.

I have yet to meet anyone who is not favourably impressed with
they hear a good 'un:-)) A local dealer gives me -35% off my own
purchases, as the result of referrring so many valve amp and turntable
customers to him. He sets them up a system at home, to suit the room
and the budget, on 30 days approval. They usually want to trade in
the SS amp at the end of that time.

Iain

This is getting silly
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...95496 37&rd=1


**"Obviously, the amp can be pushed beyond it's limits but it overloads so
smoothly that the effect is more like compression than clipping and yet it
doesn't lose dynamics."

Who was the copy editor for this ad?

4mV (RMS) hum?! Yikes! With 11 Watts output, you need efficient speakers.
With efficient speakers (Hell, with low efficiency speakers, you can hear
the hum), you can hear the hum. Catch 22 anyone?


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

This is getting silly
 

In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
I have yet to meet anyone who is not favourably impressed with
they hear a good 'un:-)) A local dealer gives me -35% off my own
purchases,

So you're still looking for the holy grail despite having apparently found
it with your amp?

as the result of referrring so many valve amp and turntable
customers to him. He sets them up a system at home, to suit the room
and the budget, on 30 days approval. They usually want to trade in
the SS amp at the end of that time.

Well, yes. Some people just want change for the sake of it - or to be in
'fashion'.

Wish I had a quid for everyone I know who replaced a decent sounding older
components system for the latest micro or whatever one, and either can't
hear or don't care just how much worse it sounds...

--
*You can't teach an old mouse new clicks *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

This is getting silly
 

In article ,
Trevor Wilson wrote:
4mV (RMS) hum?! Yikes! With 11 Watts output, you need efficient
speakers. With efficient speakers (Hell, with low efficiency speakers,
you can hear the hum), you can hear the hum. Catch 22 anyone?

The hum probably gives it the impressive bass response...

--
*Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

This is getting silly
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...95496 37&rd=1


**"Obviously, the amp can be pushed beyond it's limits but it overloads so
smoothly that the effect is more like compression than clipping and yet it
doesn't lose dynamics."

Who was the copy editor for this ad?

Just sales hype. Caveat emptor!
If it really is triode connected then it must be clipping long
before 10W.

Triode connected, a pair of EL84's with zero NFB give
5.2W at 2.5THD

4mV (RMS) hum?! Yikes! With 11 Watts output, you need efficient speakers.
With efficient speakers (Hell, with low efficiency speakers, you can hear
the hum), you can hear the hum. Catch 22 anyone?

Yes. That would certainly put me off!
There is absolutely no reason why a valve amp should not be silent
when idling. One should reallly check this from the listening position.
I cannot resist the temptation to put an ear to the speaker grille.

And have you noticed how the Chinese always go for potted
transformers, or sometimes, as in this case one full width pot:-)
I suspect this is to conceal Oxo cube sized transformers
which they use:-)

Just two nights ago, I tried out a 10W EL84 PP amp, a home-brew
built for a magazine competition. It could drive my Tannoy Lancasters
to a very satisfactory level, in a listening area of some 50 square metres.
The noise floor was, in contrast to the Chinky,
only 300µV wideband, an improvement of 22dB

But then the cost of the parts alone were four times the retail price
of the Chinky. You pays yer money.......


Iain

This is getting silly
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain M Churches wrote:
I have yet to meet anyone who is not favourably impressed with
they hear a good 'un:-)) A local dealer gives me -35% off my own
purchases,

So you're still looking for the holy grail despite having apparently found
it with your amp?

I have no plans to change my amp. I can't find a more musical one:-)
I buy CD's and the occasional reel of mic cable from his shop.
He is opening a second shop, for valves and vinyl only,
which is in the course of redecoration. There are already
interested people peering into the empty window:-)

as the result of referrring so many valve amp and turntable
customers to him. He sets them up a system at home, to suit the room
and the budget, on 30 days approval. They usually want to trade in
the SS amp at the end of that time.

Well, yes. Some people just want change for the sake of it - or to be in
'fashion'.

I hadn't thought of valve amps as fashionable:-)
The psu for my amp weighs 50 kilos!!

Surely a sleek slimline SS amp, with a 10mm anodised aluminium
face plate is much more fashionable? :-)

Wish I had a quid for everyone I know who replaced a decent sounding older
components system for the latest micro or whatever one, and either can't
hear or don't care just how much worse it sounds...

Yes. That's very true. Most people are not really concerned as long as
some
sort of sound comes out of the speakers. Also have you noticed how few
people actually listen? After about ten seconds they have an uncontrollable
urge to break into conversation. Also in many households.
the lady of the house often has the casting vote regarding purchases.
She usually makes her vote on the basis of system cosmetics.

As far as valve amps are concerned, I think that most owners are discerning
listeners. Many are also musicians. It is my experience that people who
change
from SS to thermionic rarely go back. They usually by a more expensive
valve amp, often from the same maker.


Iain

This is getting silly
 

"Iain M Churches" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...95496 37&rd=1


**"Obviously, the amp can be pushed beyond it's limits but it overloads
so smoothly that the effect is more like compression than clipping and
yet it doesn't lose dynamics."

Who was the copy editor for this ad?

Just sales hype. Caveat emptor!
If it really is triode connected then it must be clipping long
before 10W.

**Not the point. Compression is, by it's very nature, a reduction in
dynamics.


Triode connected, a pair of EL84's with zero NFB give
5.2W at 2.5THD

4mV (RMS) hum?! Yikes! With 11 Watts output, you need efficient speakers.
With efficient speakers (Hell, with low efficiency speakers, you can hear
the hum), you can hear the hum. Catch 22 anyone?

Yes. That would certainly put me off!

**It should put any sane person off.

There is absolutely no reason why a valve amp should not be silent
when idling. One should reallly check this from the listening position.
I cannot resist the temptation to put an ear to the speaker grille.

**Of course. I've measured valve amps with S/N ratios exceeding a very
respectable 90+dB.


And have you noticed how the Chinese always go for potted
transformers, or sometimes, as in this case one full width pot:-)
I suspect this is to conceal Oxo cube sized transformers
which they use:-)

**Chinese valve amps are pretty designed as a fashion accessroy, rather than
a serious audio product. As they say: "A fool and his money......"


Just two nights ago, I tried out a 10W EL84 PP amp, a home-brew
built for a magazine competition. It could drive my Tannoy Lancasters
to a very satisfactory level, in a listening area of some 50 square
metres.
The noise floor was, in contrast to the Chinky,
only 300µV wideband, an improvement of 22dB

But then the cost of the parts alone were four times the retail price
of the Chinky. You pays yer money.......

**Of course.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

This is getting silly
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Iain M Churches" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...95496 37&rd=1


**"Obviously, the amp can be pushed beyond it's limits but it overloads
so smoothly that the effect is more like compression than clipping and
yet it doesn't lose dynamics."

Who was the copy editor for this ad?

Just sales hype. Caveat emptor!
If it really is triode connected then it must be clipping long
before 10W.

**Not the point. Compression is, by it's very nature, a reduction in
dynamics.

Perhaps the inscrutable Chinese are even more cunning than we
thought. Not only are they building amplifiers for very little money,
but they are also re-writing the laws of physics:-)

**Of course. I've measured valve amps with S/N ratios exceeding a very
respectable 90+dB.

Yes. That's correct. The SNR of the 10W amp which I tested was
94dB A-weighted. So a little 'un can be a good 'un:-)

Iain

This is getting silly
 

"Iain M Churches" wrote
I hadn't thought of valve amps as fashionable:-)

I think so; now more than for a long time, it seems to me.


Martin

This is getting silly
 

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
**Chinese valve amps are pretty designed as a fashion accessroy, rather than a serious audio product. As they say: "A fool and
his money......"

An absurd generalisation.

I wonder if you extend the same reasoning to Chinese people, in fact
anyone non-white?


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.fleetie.demon.co.uk

This is getting silly
 

Fleetie wrote:

**Chinese valve amps are pretty designed as a fashion accessroy,
rather than a serious audio product. As they say: "A fool and his
money......"

An absurd generalisation.

I wonder if you extend the same reasoning to Chinese people, in fact
anyone non-white?

Seems that your generalisation is even more absurd than his.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

This is getting silly
 

"Wally" wrote in message
...
Fleetie wrote:

**Chinese valve amps are pretty designed as a fashion accessroy,
rather than a serious audio product. As they say: "A fool and his
money......"

An absurd generalisation.

I wonder if you extend the same reasoning to Chinese people, in fact
anyone non-white?

Seems that your generalisation is even more absurd than his.


--
Wally


And all the time, while we are debating who has the more absurd
generalisations, the Chinese amps are getting better and cheaper:-)

Iain

This is getting silly
 

"Wally" wrote
Fleetie wrote:

**Chinese valve amps are pretty designed as a fashion accessroy,
rather than a serious audio product. As they say: "A fool and his
money......"

An absurd generalisation.

I wonder if you extend the same reasoning to Chinese people, in fact
anyone non-white?

Seems that your generalisation is even more absurd than his.

Where's my "generalisation"? I said "I wonder if...". Read more carefully
next time. Your English comprehension is **** poor.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.fleetie.demon.co.uk

This is getting silly
 

Fleetie wrote:

Seems that your generalisation is even more absurd than his.

Where's my "generalisation"? I said "I wonder if...". Read more
carefully next time. Your English comprehension is **** poor.

My comprehension of English is actually rather good - you "wondered" ****
all, you pathetic little toad - you insinuated that he's a racist. Your
ability to reason logically is a joke. How do you get from his
generalisation about chinese amplifiers to 'wondering' if he's not-only an
anti-Chinese racist, but an anti-any-non-white racist?


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk

This is getting silly
 

"Fleetie" wrote in message
...
"Trevor Wilson" wrote
**Chinese valve amps are pretty designed as a fashion accessroy, rather
than a serious audio product. As they say: "A fool and his money......"

An absurd generalisation.

**What I intended to write was: "......amps are pretty much designed....."
I have yet to find one which is designed to provide exemplary performance
(in the same vein as, say, the Audio Research VT100, or Conrad Johnson
Premier 16), but concentrates style over substance.


I wonder if you extend the same reasoning to Chinese people, in fact
anyone non-white?

**The Chinese people (minor cultural differences aside) are no different to
the people of other races. They desire peace, security, happiness and a full
tummy. Entrepreneurs (inside and outside China) have discovered that, due to
the phenomenally low wage levels of Chinese workers, they can build quite
attractively styled products, employing an interesting use of materials,
which, in Western, developed nations, would be completely uneconomical to
do. Due to my position in the industry, I am privy to the practices of many
importers and retailers in Australia. I am, for instance, aware of a Chinese
valve product, which sells for AUS$4,000.00. The FOB cost of the product is
US$400.00. At $4,000.00, the product APPEARS to be superb value for money,
based on the beautiful metalwork. At it's core, however, it is a
bog-standard, Japanese-derived one (RRP AUS$299.00), with fancy, hand built
metal features 'bolted on' and a couple of valves chucked into the mix. I
find the whole thing to be disgustingly cynical.

[ANECDOTE] One of my clients operates a boutique audio (now Audio/video)
store, in a trendy part of Sydney. When I wandered in a few weeks ago, I
spied a new product on their shelves. A Chinese built valve amplifier. It
was attractively styled, using thick slabs of anodised aluminium (aluminum,
for the Americans who still cannot spell), some nice meters, LEDs and bias
switches. All for about AUS$4,000.00. I asked one of the salesguys what he
thought about it. "Oh, it sounds very good. Tight, solid bass, airy highs
and a sweet midrange." I then asked him to compare it to a Rotel RA-02,
before my next visit. I called a week later and he said: "I see what you
mean. The Rotel (AUS$600.00) sounds better." It doesn't look as pretty,
though (though I rather like the clean lines of the Rotel).

BTW: Not that it matters, but I lived with a Chinese woman for several years
in the 1980s. I do not carry racist tendencies about with me. I look at the
facts. Nothing more.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

This is getting silly
 

Trevor Wilson wrote:



[ANECDOTE] One of my clients operates a boutique audio (now Audio/video)
store, in a trendy part of Sydney. When I wandered in a few weeks ago, I
spied a new product on their shelves. A Chinese built valve amplifier.

out of curiousity Trevor, where was this store located?

Pyrmont, Newtown, Woollahra or Neutral Bay?

;)

This is getting silly
 

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...
Trevor Wilson wrote:



[ANECDOTE] One of my clients operates a boutique audio (now Audio/video)
store, in a trendy part of Sydney. When I wandered in a few weeks ago, I
spied a new product on their shelves. A Chinese built valve amplifier.

out of curiousity Trevor, where was this store located?

Pyrmont, Newtown, Woollahra or Neutral Bay?

**Woollahra.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

This is getting silly
 

your guests will not spill everything all over your house from
carrying too much, nor will they have to make 10 trips back and fourth from the
service stations.



Roast Leg of Amputee

By all means, substitute lamb or a good beef roast if the haunch
it is in any way diseased. But sometimes surgeons make mistakes,
and if a healthy young limb is at hand, then don?t hesitate to cook
it to perfection!

1 high quality limb, rack, or roast
Potatoes, carrot
Oil
celery
onions
green onions
parsley
garlic
salt, pepper, etc
2 cups beef stock

Marinate meat (optional, not necessary with better cuts).
Season liberally and lace with garlic cloves by making incisions,
and placing whole cloves deep into the meat.
Grease a baking pan, and fill with a thick bed of onions,
celery, green onions, and parsley.
Place roast on top with fat side up.
Place uncovered in 500° oven for 20 minutes, reduce oven to 325°.
Bake till medium rare (150°) and let roast rest.
Pour stock over onions and drippings, carve the meat and
place the slices in the au jus.



Bisque à l?Enfant

Honor the memory of Grandma with this dish by utilizing her good
silver soup tureen and her great grandchildren (crawfish, crab or
lobster will wor

This is getting silly
 

spinich cucumber salad, fruit salad
Bran muffins, dinner rolls, soft breadsticks, rice pilaf, croissants
Apple cake with rum sauce, frosted banana nut bread sherbet, home made brownies
Iced tea, water, beer, bloody marys, lemonade, coffee

The guests select food, beverages, silverware... everything from the buffet table.
They move to wherever they are comfortable, and sit with whoever they choose.
Provide trays so your guests will not spill everything all over your house from
carrying too much, nor will they have to make 10 trips back and fourth from the
service stations.



Roast Leg of Amputee

By all means, substitute lamb or a good beef roast if the haunch
it is in any way diseased. But sometimes surgeons make mistakes,
and if a healthy young limb is at hand, then don?t hesitate to cook
it to perfection!

1 high quality limb, rack, or roast
Potatoes, carrot
Oil
celery
onions
green onions
parsley
garlic
salt, pepper, etc
2 cups beef stock

Marinate meat (optional, not necessary with better cuts).
Season liberally and lace with garlic cloves by making incisions,
and placing whole cloves deep into the meat.
Grease a baking pan, and fill with a thick bed of onions,
celery, green onions, and parsley.
Place roast on top with fat side up.
Place uncovered in 500° oven for 20 minutes, reduce oven to 325°.
Bake till medium rare (150°) and let roast rest.
Pour stock over onions and drippings, carve the meat and
place the slices in the au jus.



Bisque à l?Enfant

Honor the memory of Grandma with this dish by utilizing her good
silver soup tureen and her great grandchildren (crawfish, crab or
lobster will work just as well, however this dish is classically
made with

This is getting silly
 

Nick Gorham wrote:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...95496 37&rd=1

Apropos getting silly. This is also silly:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...536422 1&rd=1

Mikkel

This is getting silly
 

Trevor Wilson wrote:

"Tat Chan" wrote in message
...

Trevor Wilson wrote:

[ANECDOTE] One of my clients operates a boutique audio (now Audio/video)
store, in a trendy part of Sydney. When I wandered in a few weeks ago, I
spied a new product on their shelves. A Chinese built valve amplifier.

out of curiousity Trevor, where was this store located?

Pyrmont, Newtown, Woollahra or Neutral Bay?


**Woollahra.



Gotcha. I know which shop that is ...

This is getting silly
 

"Andy Evans" wrote in message
...
Looks very nice. I don't see how two EL84 in triode will give you 10w per
channel, but the basic elements are there, including a choke which must be
about 3H by the look of it. A bit of space inside for upgrading
componants.
Very tempting, in fact. Anybody heard one?

=== Andy Evans ===
Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com
Audio, music and health pages and interesting links.


There is some sanity left in the world.
This thermionic masterpiece remained unsold:-)

Iain