Apologies if this appears twice, I posted it previously but it didn't
show up

Hi all,

On the advice of people in numerous audio newsgroups (many thanks) I've
recently built a set of speakers for movies and music. They're all
designs from Wilmslow Audio, listed below:

Front: Nemesis. Treble: Scan-speak D2905/950000, Bass: Scan-speak
21w/8554 (8")
Cent Gemini. Treble: Morel MDT32s, Bass: 2 x Morel MW144
Surround: Midas Monitor. Treble: Vifa XT25TG-30-04, Bass: Seas Excel
W11CY001

I have been looking for an amp suitable for movie viewing, but consider
stereo music as a higher priority.

I was originally considering a pairing such as Denon's AVR-2805, with a
Denon DVD-2910 player (for CD and DVD-A playback only - as I have an
alternative video source).

Because of my preference for music reproduction, many people have
recommended that I look at Arcam amps. Unfortunately, they're not cheap.

I was therefore thinking of instead combining the Arcam AVR300 with a
budget CD player (such as the Cambridge Audio Azur 640C), and connecting
its digital output to the AVR300 - accepting that I will not have DVD-A
playback.

Would I be right in assuming that the quality of sound from a CD unit is
greatly dependant on the DAC, and therefore wouldn't be important as,
with a digital connection, I'd be using the DAC on the AVR300?

Arcam also have a model that's a little more expensive than the
Cambridge Audio 640C, the DiVA CD73T. Anyone got/used this player, and
have any thoughts?

Would a dedicated CD player be generally better for CDs than the Denon
DVD-2910, or doesn't it make much difference in this price bracket?

Arcam claim that, even with a 5.1 setup, you can use the two remaining
channels to bi-amp the front speakers. My fronts have suitable
crossovers, so would it be a great improvement over bi-wiring?.

Does anyone have the AVR300, and would like to give me any thoughts as
to sound/build quality and general use?

Apologies for such a long-winded email, but this would be a significant
outlay for me, so I want to make the right selection.

Many thanks,

Sploo.

"sploo" wrote in message
...
Apologies if this appears twice, I posted it previously but it didn't
show up

Hi all,

On the advice of people in numerous audio newsgroups (many thanks) I've
recently built a set of speakers for movies and music. They're all designs
from Wilmslow Audio, listed below:

Front: Nemesis. Treble: Scan-speak D2905/950000, Bass: Scan-speak 21w/8554
(8")
Cent Gemini. Treble: Morel MDT32s, Bass: 2 x Morel MW144
Surround: Midas Monitor. Treble: Vifa XT25TG-30-04, Bass: Seas Excel
W11CY001

I have been looking for an amp suitable for movie viewing, but consider
stereo music as a higher priority.


OK Sploo, no-one else has answered so I'll try:



I was originally considering a pairing such as Denon's AVR-2805, with a
Denon DVD-2910 player (for CD and DVD-A playback only - as I have an
alternative video source).


Immediate reaction - I never saw the name Denon on anything in the least bit
crappy...



Because of my preference for music reproduction, many people have
recommended that I look at Arcam amps. Unfortunately, they're not cheap.


No, they're not, but if you can afford them you should *audition* one, or
you will *never know*.... ;-)


I was therefore thinking of instead combining the Arcam AVR300 with a
budget CD player (such as the Cambridge Audio Azur 640C), and connecting
its digital output to the AVR300 - accepting that I will not have DVD-A
playback.


Budget 'CDPs' with digital out cost £29 from supermarkets these days -
(DVDPs) and even possibly with DVD-A if you are lucky (I don't know)...



Would I be right in assuming that the quality of sound from a CD unit is
greatly dependant on the DAC,


Yes.


and therefore wouldn't be important as, with a digital connection, I'd be
using the DAC on the AVR300?


I think so - if I'm wrong someone'll damn soon be along to say!!


Arcam also have a model that's a little more expensive than the Cambridge
Audio 640C, the DiVA CD73T. Anyone got/used this player, and have any
thoughts?


No idea myself....


Would a dedicated CD player be generally better for CDs than the Denon
DVD-2910, or doesn't it make much difference in this price bracket?


Don't know, but see the other thread on DVDP vs. CDP for an idea on current
thinking. Generally, I think you'll find DVDPs well up to the task of
playing CDs. (I think so anyway...) A DVDP will also have the advantage of
playing formats other than CD - CD-MP3s for instance and some of the will
even read and play from cards, I gather....


Arcam claim that, even with a 5.1 setup, you can use the two remaining
channels to bi-amp the front speakers. My fronts have suitable crossovers,
so would it be a great improvement over bi-wiring?.


In my experience, bi-amping *does* make a difference (not necessarily an
improvement), bi-wiring never does (that I've been able to tell). Quite
whether or not it would in a 5.1 setup, I've no idea....



Does anyone have the AVR300, and would like to give me any thoughts as to
sound/build quality and general use?

Apologies for such a long-winded email, but this would be a significant
outlay for me, so I want to make the right selection.


Of course and auditioning the kit is absolutely *essential* if you can't
afford to make a mistake. A home trial (without obligation) is even better.
No idea where you are but there *will* be a dealer prepared to do this (ie
hungry enough) somewhere nearby. They may well want to swipe your card
first - make sure there's no problem with return and refund.


Many thanks,


I hope it helps.

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:15:11 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

I was originally considering a pairing such as Denon's AVR-2805, with a
Denon DVD-2910 player (for CD and DVD-A playback only - as I have an
alternative video source).

Immediate reaction - I never saw the name Denon on anything in the least bit
crappy...

I did, the POA 6600 monoblocs. Got rave reviews so I tried them
against my Audiolab. Shoulda been called the POS 6600......

Otherwise though, I tend to agree. The kitchen system's all Denon, and
they used to make a great turntable. Currently, Denon and Pioneer are
duking it out at the top end of the 'Home Cinema' mass market, and I
wouldn't care to split them. I've always considered the Denon 380X
series to be excellent value for money, I feel the 280X tends to show
the results of cutting back too far on the costly power supplies. I'd
tend to buy an 'end of line' or even used 3804 rather than a 2805.

I put my own money on a Pioneer 'universal' player, but it could
easily have been a Denon.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Keith G wrote:
OK Sploo, no-one else has answered so I'll try:

Keith, first up, thanks for your reply.

I was originally considering a pairing such as Denon's AVR-2805, with a
Denon DVD-2910 player (for CD and DVD-A playback only - as I have an
alternative video source).

Immediate reaction - I never saw the name Denon on anything in the least bit
crappy...

That fits my experience, though I'm not particularly familar with their
surround amps/receivers.

The gist I get is that the Denon receivers are *very* good for films,
but, like most others, aren't so hot for music.

Because of my preference for music reproduction, many people have
recommended that I look at Arcam amps. Unfortunately, they're not cheap.

No, they're not, but if you can afford them you should *audition* one, or
you will *never know*.... ;-)

That's the plan.

I was therefore thinking of instead combining the Arcam AVR300 with a
budget CD player (such as the Cambridge Audio Azur 640C), and connecting
its digital output to the AVR300 - accepting that I will not have DVD-A
playback.

Budget 'CDPs' with digital out cost £29 from supermarkets these days -
(DVDPs) and even possibly with DVD-A if you are lucky (I don't know)...

I work in an environment where some of our guys mess about with digital
audio, and the buzzword here is 'clock jitter'. Apparently there's an
order of magnitude difference between some of the cheap players and a
good Denon unit.

Having said that, even some of our people will then say that the errors
are so small it doesn't really matter. The joy of audio - ask 3 people,
get 4 opinions

Would I be right in assuming that the quality of sound from a CD unit is
greatly dependant on the DAC,

Yes.

Good!

Would a dedicated CD player be generally better for CDs than the Denon
DVD-2910, or doesn't it make much difference in this price bracket?

Don't know, but see the other thread on DVDP vs. CDP for an idea on current
thinking. Generally, I think you'll find DVDPs well up to the task of
playing CDs. (I think so anyway...) A DVDP will also have the advantage of
playing formats other than CD - CD-MP3s for instance and some of the will
even read and play from cards, I gather....

Yea... I was reading a DVDP vs CDP thread a couple of days ago. A couple
of yes/no emails, before someone started a flame war about whether
replacing the capacitors on some insert brand/model no. player makes
it better than some insert other brand/model no. player. *sigh*


Arcam claim that, even with a 5.1 setup, you can use the two remaining
channels to bi-amp the front speakers. My fronts have suitable crossovers,
so would it be a great improvement over bi-wiring?.

In my experience, bi-amping *does* make a difference (not necessarily an
improvement), bi-wiring never does (that I've been able to tell). Quite
whether or not it would in a 5.1 setup, I've no idea....

Because I'll mainly be using it for 2 channel (i.e. daily) rather than
films (i.e. weekly) I quite like the idea of having bi-amp
functionality. What Hi-Fi Sound and Vision likened the AVR300 to stereo
integrated amps in the 350GBP range. They pointed out that this wasn't a
criticism, but praise, as other surround systems don't get this close.

I was crossing fingers that the claimed improvement of bi-amping would
improve it that little bit further (so I don't need to think about
spending 500GBP on a decent stereo amp), whilst surround reproduction
would still be good.

Of course and auditioning the kit is absolutely *essential* if you can't
afford to make a mistake. A home trial (without obligation) is even better.
No idea where you are but there *will* be a dealer prepared to do this (ie
hungry enough) somewhere nearby. They may well want to swipe your card
first - make sure there's no problem with return and refund.

Absolutely. My plan is to take the speakers I've made and audition them
on various amps. I just want to be a little better armed (with
information) before I go filling the car with MDF boxes

I'm in the Oxford area, and understand that Seven Oaks and Audio T have
both Denon and Arcam gear. Worth mentioning if anyone has used these
people before, and has any thoughts.

Cheers for the info,

Sploo.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:15:11 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:
Immediate reaction - I never saw the name Denon on anything in the least bit
crappy...

I did, the POA 6600 monoblocs. Got rave reviews so I tried them
against my Audiolab. Shoulda been called the POS 6600......

Otherwise though, I tend to agree. The kitchen system's all Denon, and
they used to make a great turntable. Currently, Denon and Pioneer are
duking it out at the top end of the 'Home Cinema' mass market, and I
wouldn't care to split them. I've always considered the Denon 380X
series to be excellent value for money, I feel the 280X tends to show
the results of cutting back too far on the costly power supplies. I'd
tend to buy an 'end of line' or even used 3804 rather than a 2805.

I put my own money on a Pioneer 'universal' player, but it could
easily have been a Denon.

Stewart, thanks for the info.

Are you using a surround setup at home, and if so, are you happy with
music reproduction?

Cheers,

Sploo.

The gist I get is that the Denon receivers are *very* good for films,
but, like most others, aren't so hot for music.

I am not familiar with multichannel home cinema systems but I am
curious what this might imply. In what way does the reproduction of
sound for films (which would seem to contain a lot of music) differ
from that for music alone? Is it simply that the pictures distract you
from the poor sound quality and so it matters less?

andy wrote:
The gist I get is that the Denon receivers are *very* good for films,
but, like most others, aren't so hot for music.


I am not familiar with multichannel home cinema systems but I am
curious what this might imply. In what way does the reproduction of
sound for films (which would seem to contain a lot of music) differ
from that for music alone? Is it simply that the pictures distract you
from the poor sound quality and so it matters less?


I think the point they're getting at is that movie sound requires bass
and attack, whereas music requires much more subtlety.

What Hi-FI magazine describe 'slow bass' as something that goes
"'whoompa-whoompa' and can dominate the music". A highly technical
description I'm sure.

It seems to be a common criticism that surround systems don't do music
much justice, though I must admit that I've only tried some very
expensive receivers that are owned by my company (i.e. I've not listed
to music through a surround receiver that cost less than 3000GBP).

Funnily enough, I can't afford a 3000GBP receiver, and I doubt many can.

Sploo.

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:15:11 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


I was originally considering a pairing such as Denon's AVR-2805, with a
Denon DVD-2910 player (for CD and DVD-A playback only - as I have an
alternative video source).

Immediate reaction - I never saw the name Denon on anything in the least bit
crappy...


I did, the POA 6600 monoblocs. Got rave reviews so I tried them
against my Audiolab. Shoulda been called the POS 6600......

wots this, an amp that is not a transparent wire with gain? Goodness me!

snip


I put my own money on a Pioneer 'universal' player, but it could
easily have been a Denon.


but Denon don't make universal players as cheap as Pioneer do (the last time I
checked, anyway)

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:40:30 GMT, sploo
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:15:11 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:
Immediate reaction - I never saw the name Denon on anything in the least bit
crappy...

I did, the POA 6600 monoblocs. Got rave reviews so I tried them
against my Audiolab. Shoulda been called the POS 6600......

Otherwise though, I tend to agree. The kitchen system's all Denon, and
they used to make a great turntable. Currently, Denon and Pioneer are
duking it out at the top end of the 'Home Cinema' mass market, and I
wouldn't care to split them. I've always considered the Denon 380X
series to be excellent value for money, I feel the 280X tends to show
the results of cutting back too far on the costly power supplies. I'd
tend to buy an 'end of line' or even used 3804 rather than a 2805.

I put my own money on a Pioneer 'universal' player, but it could
easily have been a Denon.

Stewart, thanks for the info.

Are you using a surround setup at home, and if so, are you happy with
music reproduction?

Only on the PC! :-)

OTOH, I have several friends with 'home cinema' setups, and current
Pioneer and Denon A/V receivers seem to do a very good job on
2-channel stereo music, as well as 'surround sound' music videos.
Admittedly, I'm talking about the 3804 and the monster VSXA10i, but so
long as you don't stress them with insensitive speakers and loud
playback, the cheaper models should now be pretty reasonable. With
multichannel, you do still get what you pay for (if you're careful!)
in AV amps up to the 2 grand mark or so. I do know a guy with a
Lexicon MC8 and several Audiolab 8000Ps and Ms, and his 7.1 system is
quite awesome, but I suspect that this has as much to do with the full
set of B&W N-series speakers as it does with the electronics.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 22:52:01 +1000, Tat Chan
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 23:15:11 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

I was originally considering a pairing such as Denon's AVR-2805, with a
Denon DVD-2910 player (for CD and DVD-A playback only - as I have an
alternative video source).

Immediate reaction - I never saw the name Denon on anything in the least bit
crappy...

I did, the POA 6600 monoblocs. Got rave reviews so I tried them
against my Audiolab. Shoulda been called the POS 6600......

wots this, an amp that is not a transparent wire with gain? Goodness me!

Common enough, lots of trash around at all prices! Indeed, as prices
get stratospheric, that seems to be where you find the *real*
trash............................

snip

I put my own money on a Pioneer 'universal' player, but it could
easily have been a Denon.

but Denon don't make universal players as cheap as Pioneer do (the last time I
checked, anyway)

True, but I admit that I was originally looking at the 868i rather
than the 575! However, common sense prevailed, since I don't yet have
a full-blown HC with 3-chip DLP projector, so I doubted that the
difference would be visible. I *definitely* doubt that the difference
would be *audible* in any system.

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering