Quad erat demonstrandum
 

I could not resist using the above title for my query. I have recently
purchased all Quad equipment, i.e. 99 CD player, pre-amp and 909
amplifier.
Up to now I have been using B and W Speakers but have now bought a
second hand pair of Quad ESL 63's which are also owned by a friend of
mine who raves about them.
Having got used to the different sound of them, especially in my first
love, classical music, I have been puzzled by the lack of volume, some
distortion and also the need to run my 909 at a higher level.
I have now discovered from Quad my 63's have lost sensitivity and may
have a panel problem, (please excuse my layman's description). I have
about half the volume of my friends speakers and my 909 which is usually
hot even on standby, seems to get exceedingly hot when using the 63's.
I have decided to send them back to the dealer so that he in turn can
deliver them to Quad for a complete check-up.

My queries really are, first of all, why is my friends Quad amplifier
quite cold in operation and standby, I understand its an older and
smaller powered 303, (or some such number). Quad tell me its normal for
the 909 to be hot, but how hot, as mine is almost untouchable when under
power and I can smell the new paint on it.
Has anyone any idea why my friends ESL's are so powerful and punchy and
mine are not and with a 3 months guarantee on my speakers just starting,
where do I stand, I paid £1295 for them and I feel that especially the
ESL's should not be sold by a dealer supposedly in good working order,
when they are quite obviously in need of servicing. I am certain that
they "will" give me a good service when I go back to them but should
they not have done so before selling them in the first place. Only I
have a knowledgeable friend who owns 63's that I can use as a benchmark,
I might never have discovered their faults and how for they fell short
of their full potential.
Your views would be greatly appreciated.
--
Derrick Fawsitt

Quad erat demonstrandum
 

In
Your views would be greatly appreciated.

Can't comment about the QUAD 909 amp but as a long term ESL63 user they
do occasionally have the odd panel problem etc and do need some loot
spending on maintenance from time to time, and a fair old bit is down to
how they have been treated in the past. It may be that the polarising
voltage has or is low and this is causing the poor efficiency. They
aren't the speakers for really loud use, but are quite sufficient for
most domestic applications. You just shouldn't have any problems with
distortion at all.

That said when they are going well there is nothing that can touch them
for accuracy:)))
--
Tony Sayer

Quad erat demonstrandum
 

In message , tony sayer
writes
In
Your views would be greatly appreciated.

Can't comment about the QUAD 909 amp but as a long term ESL63 user they
do occasionally have the odd panel problem etc and do need some loot
spending on maintenance from time to time, and a fair old bit is down to
how they have been treated in the past. It may be that the polarising
voltage has or is low and this is causing the poor efficiency. They
aren't the speakers for really loud use, but are quite sufficient for
most domestic applications. You just shouldn't have any problems with
distortion at all.

That said when they are going well there is nothing that can touch them
for accuracy:)))

Thank you Tony, just what I needed to cheer me up as I have been
depressed by the performance of mine in comparison to my friends. I will
persevere and revert back here, (if I may), with the outcome of my
investigations.
Once again, my thanks,
--
Derrick Fawsitt

Quad erat demonstrandum
 

In article , Derrick Fawsitt
wrote:
I have been puzzled by the lack of volume, some distortion and also the
need to run my 909 at a higher level. I have now discovered from Quad my
63's have lost sensitivity and may have a panel problem, (please excuse
my layman's description). I have about half the volume of my friends
speakers and my 909 which is usually hot even on standby, seems to get
exceedingly hot when using the 63's. I have decided to send them back to
the dealer so that he in turn can deliver them to Quad for a complete
check-up.

The above all sound like either the 63's or the 909 need attention.

I'd agree with what Tony has said, but will add the following:

On the back-panel of each speaker you will find a small rubber 'bung'. Pop
these out of their holes and look in while the speakers are mains-powered.
You should see a light that flickers on occasionally. How often does it
flicker on? Is this affected when you play music?

It may be worth adding: The next time you use the speakers, try switching
off the room lights and closing curtains so the room is very dark. Then
see if there are any faint flashes of light coming from the actual speaker
panels. If you see any faint flashes this may be arcing. IF YOU SEE THIS
STOP USING THE SPEAKERS IMMEDIATELY.

Arcing should not occur with the 63's as they have protection circuits
designed to prevent this. So if it occurs it implies a serious fault,
and use may be doing further damage. Hence given what you have already
said, any such signs should be taken to mean the speakers are unusuable
until fixed.

Halving the polarising voltage would drop the sound for a given input by
6dB or so, hence would be quite noticable. Turning up the amp would prompt
the protection circuitry in the 63's. This may well cause audible
distortion and cause the amp to run hot as the protection in 63's can be
quite 'demanding' on the amplifier.

My queries really are, first of all, why is my friends Quad amplifier
quite cold in operation and standby, I understand its an older and
smaller powered 303, (or some such number). Quad tell me its normal for
the 909 to be hot, but how hot, as mine is almost untouchable when under
power and I can smell the new paint on it. Has anyone any idea why my
friends ESL's are so powerful and punchy and mine are not and with a 3
months guarantee on my speakers just starting, where do I stand, I paid
£1295 for them and I feel that especially the ESL's should not be sold
by a dealer supposedly in good working order, when they are quite
obviously in need of servicing.

I would agree. Explain to them your evidence and reasoning that the
speakers seem not to be functioning correctly. If they argue, ask them how
they checked the polarisation was OK, and that the panels were OK. A visual
inspection would not suffice. And the voltages inside mean that anyone
doing this would need the relevant skills.

I use a pair of 63's and I'd say they are truly superb for imaging, low
distortion, etc. But as Tony has said, they have to be used with some care,
and can be damaged or suffer from 'age' problems - particularly if not
cared for by a previous owner. My impression is that your speakers have
either aged or been damaged.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Quad erat demonstrandum
 

Derrick Fawsitt wrote:

I could not resist using the above title for my query. I have recently
purchased all Quad equipment, i.e. 99 CD player, pre-amp and 909
amplifier.
Up to now I have been using B and W Speakers but have now bought a
second hand pair of Quad ESL 63's which are also owned by a friend of
mine who raves about them.
Having got used to the different sound of them, especially in my first
love, classical music, I have been puzzled by the lack of volume, some
distortion and also the need to run my 909 at a higher level.
I have now discovered from Quad my 63's have lost sensitivity and may
have a panel problem, (please excuse my layman's description). I have
about half the volume of my friends speakers and my 909 which is usually
hot even on standby, seems to get exceedingly hot when using the 63's.
I have decided to send them back to the dealer so that he in turn can
deliver them to Quad for a complete check-up.

My queries really are, first of all, why is my friends Quad amplifier
quite cold in operation and standby, I understand its an older and
smaller powered 303, (or some such number). Quad tell me its normal for
the 909 to be hot, but how hot, as mine is almost untouchable when under
power and I can smell the new paint on it.
Has anyone any idea why my friends ESL's are so powerful and punchy and
mine are not and with a 3 months guarantee on my speakers just starting,
where do I stand, I paid £1295 for them and I feel that especially the
ESL's should not be sold by a dealer supposedly in good working order,
when they are quite obviously in need of servicing. I am certain that
they "will" give me a good service when I go back to them but should
they not have done so before selling them in the first place. Only I
have a knowledgeable friend who owns 63's that I can use as a benchmark,
I might never have discovered their faults and how for they fell short
of their full potential.
Your views would be greatly appreciated.
--
Derrick Fawsitt

ESL speakers suffer with ageing.
Nearly all the un-restored Quad 57 have reached the end of their service
life
because its impossible to maintain charges of thousands of volts
on panels indefinately without leakage or arcing or other accumulating
problems which slowly but surely degrade the speakers' performance,
and lack of dynamics may be failed treble panels.

ESL63 are starting to get old.

Comparisons about volume levels and power required that you have mentioned
need a much more careful analysis than you have mentioned, and perhaps
sending your speakers off to Quad was the best thing you could have done
if you don't have the expertise and gear required to check out the
speaker impedances, response levels, and power used from the amplifiers.
We have seen many Quad products imported to Oz and there is a guy in
Melbourne,
John Hall, who has a good reputation for fixing, ie, re-panelling Quad
speakers.
This is a cheaper option than returning old Quad speakers to england for a
fix.
ERaudio, or Perth also sells kits for Quad speaker repairs.

Patrick Turner.

Quad erat demonstrandum
 

In article ,
Patrick Turner wrote:
Nearly all the un-restored Quad 57 have reached the end of their service
life

You jest? Unless never used and stored in ideal conditions most need a
service every 5 years or less.

--
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Quad erat demonstrandum
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You jest? Unless never used and stored in ideal conditions most need
a
service every 5 years or less.

Why I have used 57s from brand new out the box to serviced by Quad
serviced by One Thing to un serviced 15 years plus and I can think of
many a set over ten years old with no problems.

I can think back to people with three year old Quad 57s in need of a
service (heavy smokers)

there are still a few people out their (sad) still using 57s bought
from new still sounding good

a pair I bought new 1982 have not been serviced yet and on taking
apart a couple of years ago the dust covers did not even show many
signs of the glue going off, which on some sets left too near hot
radiators it looks like old selotape

Quad erat demonstrandum
 

In article ,
Dave xxxx wrote:
Why I have used 57s from brand new out the box to serviced by Quad
serviced by One Thing to un serviced 15 years plus and I can think of
many a set over ten years old with no problems.

Hmm. I had three pals with 57s and 5 years was about the norm. Of course
they often just drop off in performance slightly (especially at the top
end) and if it's all you listen to you might not notice it.

Thinking back only one of the households was non smoking and of course all
had central heating.

--
*Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Quad erat demonstrandum
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Patrick Turner wrote:
Nearly all the un-restored Quad 57 have reached the end of their service
life

You jest? Unless never used and stored in ideal conditions most need a
service every 5 years or less.

I have known pairs of 57 to last many years without a service.
But many which have *never* been serviced just stop working,
or the output dwindles; ie, they have reached the end of their life.
But they can be fully restored and like Lazarus can be raised from the dead.
End of service life means the point where diaphragm replacement is required,
not just repairs to the power supply.

In Canberra where i live the climate is favourable, with long cool
winters and low humidity all year round.
Last year an ancient dude gave me a mono Heathkit preamp and power amp kit he
never got around to
assembling. The box and all the parts look like they were packed yesterday.
But the date of issue was about 1965.

If I lived closer to the coast or in the tropics, the parts would have
suffered much more.

I know a guy with Quads in Nth Qld, and he doesn't use them in the wet season.

Patrick Turner.




--
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Quad erat demonstrandum
 

In message , Patrick Turner
writes


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
Patrick Turner wrote:
Nearly all the un-restored Quad 57 have reached the end of their service
life

You jest? Unless never used and stored in ideal conditions most need a
service every 5 years or less.

I have known pairs of 57 to last many years without a service.
But many which have *never* been serviced just stop working,
or the output dwindles; ie, they have reached the end of their life.
But they can be fully restored and like Lazarus can be raised from the dead.
End of service life means the point where diaphragm replacement is required,
not just repairs to the power supply.

In Canberra where i live the climate is favourable, with long cool
winters and low humidity all year round.
Last year an ancient dude gave me a mono Heathkit preamp and power amp kit he
never got around to
assembling. The box and all the parts look like they were packed yesterday.
But the date of issue was about 1965.

If I lived closer to the coast or in the tropics, the parts would have
suffered much more.

I know a guy with Quads in Nth Qld, and he doesn't use them in the wet season.

Patrick Turner.




--
*If you try to fail, and succeed, which have you done?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


To all who have replied so far, I have found the answers so informative
and reassuring, especially the fact that in all cases you all feel they
are tremendous speakers.
As the dealer's response has been excellent, (so far), in that he is
sending them down to Quad to be brought up, (hopefully), to one hundred
per cent condition, I am only left with a slight worry in case I might
have damaged my brand new Quad 909 Amp. Also, the comment that there may
also be something wrong with my 909 worries me. Against that, I have
been told that they are fairly indestructible and its usual for them to
run quite hot, even in standby. I hope the only thing I have got from
these events is experience and that no damage has been done.
Finally, as if I did not have enough "problems" and decisions to make, a
local dealer, (another one), has said he has yet another pair of Walnut
63's coming in but slightly more expensive and with no stands. I now
have to decide whether I go with the ones I have now which I will get
back in 100 per cent condition or take the 2nd pair that are supposed to
be working properly and have been serviced in the last ten years. Right
now I am opting to go with the pair that are going to go to Quad and to
be restored to mint condition as I feel that is the only way I can
definitely know they have been fixed.
Once again, all my thanks for some superb answers, thank you folks.
--
Derrick Fawsitt