Sub woofer usefull in HiFi system?
 

I have tried many different speakers over the years, but if I go too big in
the speaker for bass response, the overall sound suffers in my small
lounge.

The Kef IQ5 I now have seem to suit my room very well. The bass is tight
and punchy, but certainly loses grunt when trying to reproduce the deep
notes from instruments like organs.

Would a subwoofer be a good idea to fill that gap? If so, how do they
connect to the amp as my Roksan only has one set of speaker outputs. I
havn't spoken to any dealers or researched on the web yet, thought I would
try here first.

--
Cessna172

Sub woofer usefull in HiFi system?
 

"Cessna172" wrote in message
.205...
I have tried many different speakers over the years, but if I go too big in
the speaker for bass response, the overall sound suffers in my small
lounge.


A common enough problem - deep, loose bass which is wrong for the shape/size
room is a trap most people fall into. The subsequent blurring of detail
(time alignment? time-smearing?) spoils many otherwise fine systems IMO. I
had a lot of trouble with bass until I effectively removed it from own gear
with FR speakers, the resulting sound (all the usual ******** - clarity,
detail, imaging, scale, depth etc.) is a revelation. Visitors here
(including a visting electrician) all remark on the *speakers*!! (Nothing
else - just the speakers!! ;-)



The Kef IQ5 I now have seem to suit my room very well. The bass is tight
and punchy, but certainly loses grunt when trying to reproduce the deep
notes from instruments like organs.

Would a subwoofer be a good idea to fill that gap?


Yes, of course it would. The best thing is that a sub can be switched off -
thick, woolly bass from the wrong speakers can't...


If so, how do they
connect to the amp as my Roksan only has one set of speaker outputs.


Easy - study this pic:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/item.../subwoofer.jpg

The speaker wires from your amp go into the sub, the sub scrapes off the LF
stuff (allegedly) and another pair of 'out' wires allows the rest to pass to
the normal speakers. You get to set the filter level and operate an
independent volume control on the sub.

For 'made up' music subs, ideally think REL - the 'S's being better than the
'Q's I'm told....???

Better yet build your own with a kit from IPL:

http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk/ipl_sw..._subwoofer.htm

and get the same thing for what? a third of the price?

Don't worry about difficult/expensive veneering operations, just slap black
vinyl emulsion all over it (nicely) and the whole thing will totally
disappear into a murky corner....!! :-)


I
havn't spoken to any dealers or researched on the web yet, thought I would
try here first.


:-)

Sub woofer usefull in HiFi system?
 

"Keith G" wrote in
:


"Cessna172" wrote in message
.205...
I have tried many different speakers over the years, but if I go too
big in the speaker for bass response, the overall sound suffers in my
small lounge.


A common enough problem - deep, loose bass which is wrong for the
shape/size room is a trap most people fall into. The subsequent
blurring of detail (time alignment? time-smearing?) spoils many
otherwise fine systems IMO. I had a lot of trouble with bass until I
effectively removed it from own gear with FR speakers, the resulting
sound (all the usual ******** - clarity, detail, imaging, scale, depth
etc.) is a revelation. Visitors here (including a visting electrician)
all remark on the *speakers*!! (Nothing else - just the speakers!! ;-)



The Kef IQ5 I now have seem to suit my room very well. The bass is
tight and punchy, but certainly loses grunt when trying to reproduce
the deep notes from instruments like organs.

Would a subwoofer be a good idea to fill that gap?


Yes, of course it would. The best thing is that a sub can be switched
off - thick, woolly bass from the wrong speakers can't...


If so, how do they connect to the amp as my Roksan only has one set
of speaker outputs.


Easy - study this pic:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/item.../subwoofer.jpg

Is it still for sale? I would be interested in buying as I really don't
have the inclination to build - too many other interests going on, I really
ought to stick to one or two!

The record deck you sold me still needs a good internal clean - the buttons
keep sticking down. In fact, have you still got someone interested in
owning it - I am quite happy with my current CD set up.

The speaker wires from your amp go into the sub, the sub scrapes off
the LF stuff (allegedly) and another pair of 'out' wires allows the
rest to pass to the normal speakers. You get to set the filter level
and operate an independent volume control on the sub.

Nice and easy. I listen to a lot of organ/piano/jazz and really miss the
low down grunt.

For 'made up' music subs, ideally think REL - the 'S's being better
than the 'Q's I'm told....???

Better yet build your own with a kit from IPL:

http://www.iplacoustics.co.uk/ipl_sw..._subwoofer.htm

Me, build $%@#~ ... I never did get enough courage to build an amp!



-- Cessna172

Sub woofer usefull in HiFi system?
 

Hi,

In my own two cases, it certainly did.

My main system uses Meridian DSP 5000 'speakers which, whilst not bass
light, didn't have the bottom octave as I would have liked it. Adding a pair
of D1500 subs worked wonders. The bass only goes a few hertz deeper, from
around 35 Hz to perhaps just below 30, and I have to be careful of a room
honk at around 50 hertz which having more energy from the subs doesn't help,
but nethertheless, the result is more satisfying. You may be surprised that
I have set the subs up subjectively, I have tried to make measurements, but
measuring very low frequencies isn't easy, small differences in position of
the measuring microphone makes large differences to the measured response,
and I don't know for sure how accurate the microphone is below 30Hz anyway,
so for once, a subjective setup has to suffice.

The second case is probably more relevant to your situation. My son's system
consists of small Mission 'speakers (can't remember which model, but they
weren't expensive,) which go down to about 70Hz. They are driven by a
venerable but excellent Quad 303. I built an active subwoofer which goes
down to a designed 20 Hz (can't measure it accurately, for the reasons
above) driven by a 200 watt amplifier. The important thing is that the
active crossover removes the low bass from the main 'speakers and all bass
below 80Hz is handled by the sub. I have seen several recommendations (REL
for example) that suggest that the main 'speakers should be driven full
range, and the sub supplements the mains. I can't agree with this, as I have
found that with small 'speakers removing the deep bass which they can't
handle anyway increases their power handling on programme material and
improves the mid-range considerably. The only penalty for this is a tiny bit
of increased noise as the electronic crossover has to come after the pre-amp
volume control and immediately before the power amp. This of course may not
apply to all small 'speakers, but it worked that way with the Missions and
the JPWs he had previously.

In your case, I would get an active sub. If your amplifier provides an
output from the pre-amp, then you can drive the sub from that. If not, most
decent active subs will have both line level and 'speaker level inputs.
I've heard very good things abut REL subwoofers, although I have not spent
much time listening to them myself. Their filters will not however remove
the bass from the main speakers, so in my opinion, you won't get the best
from them (I know REL disagree). You could experiment with a passive
crossover to feed your main 'speakers, even just a series capacitor which
will roll-off the extreme bass may help. The formula for calculating the
value of the capacitor is C=1/2PiFR where F is the frequency you want to
cut off at and R is the nominal impedance of your 'speakers. For 80Hz and 8
ohms, C= 248microfarad if I've done the sums right. The capacitor need to be
nonpolar and can go in series with the 'speaker cable from amp to main
'speaker.

At the cost of a couple of capacitors it's worth trying and see which way
you prefer it.

Good luck

S.







"Cessna172" wrote in message
.205...
I have tried many different speakers over the years, but if I go too big in
the speaker for bass response, the overall sound suffers in my small
lounge.

The Kef IQ5 I now have seem to suit my room very well. The bass is tight
and punchy, but certainly loses grunt when trying to reproduce the deep
notes from instruments like organs.

Would a subwoofer be a good idea to fill that gap? If so, how do they
connect to the amp as my Roksan only has one set of speaker outputs. I
havn't spoken to any dealers or researched on the web yet, thought I would
try here first.

--
Cessna172

Sub woofer usefull in HiFi system?
 

"Cessna172" wrote in message
.205...

I have tried many different speakers over the years, but if I go too big in
the speaker for bass response, the overall sound suffers in my small
lounge.

There's a technical reason for this. For every enclosed space there is a
frequency below which response starts rising at about 12 dB per octave. The
smaller the space, the higher this frequency is. Most speakers have some
frequency below which their response starts falling at 12 dB per octave.
Thus, if you match the speaker to the room, the point where the room starts
rising matches the frequency where the speaker starts falling off.

The Kef IQ5 I now have seem to suit my room very well. The bass is tight
and punchy, but certainly loses grunt when trying to reproduce the deep
notes from instruments like organs.

This would be symptomatic of a room that is too large to be optimal for the
speaker.

Would a subwoofer be a good idea to fill that gap?

Yes, but if you get the wrong subwoofer to match your room and your existing
speakers, and/or fail to set it up right, then you will have either a hole
or a bump in your bass.

Sub woofer usefull in HiFi system?
 

"Cessna172" wrote


If so, how do they connect to the amp as my Roksan only has one set
of speaker outputs.


Easy - study this pic:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/item.../subwoofer.jpg

Is it still for sale? I would be interested in buying as I really don't
have the inclination to build - too many other interests going on, I
really
ought to stick to one or two!

The record deck you sold me still needs a good internal clean - the
buttons
keep sticking down. In fact, have you still got someone interested in
owning it - I am quite happy with my current CD set up.


'Ello....???

Is that you Ray? Flying under false colours?? :-)

(Woss all this Cessna biz - you taking flying lessons or summat? :-)

I haven't had anybody after that deck for a while - it hasn't been featured
on my site for a long time now, but the amazing thing is I mentioned it to
someone only yesterday!! If you want rid naybe I could help you shift it or
summat?


Me, build $%@#~ ... I never did get enough courage to build an amp!


Do you still want one? (valves, naturally...) I've got a spare one (brand
new) floating about through lack of space in my rack!! (Overamped!! :-)

Anyway, yes that sub is still available (I won't post these things - got a
Jairman asking about shipping the sodding Loths to Berlin only this
morning!) You had better email me direct with a valid email address or call
me and we can have a natter, but not this afternoon - I'm in the garage,
building a pair of wardrobes:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/fostexfe206e/fostex.htm

:-)

Sub woofer usefull in HiFi system?
 

"Keith G" wrote in
:


"Cessna172" wrote


If so, how do they connect to the amp as my Roksan only has one set
of speaker outputs.


Easy - study this pic:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/item.../subwoofer.jpg

Is it still for sale? I would be interested in buying as I really
don't have the inclination to build - too many other interests going
on, I really ought to stick to one or two!

The record deck you sold me still needs a good internal clean - the
buttons keep sticking down. In fact, have you still got someone
interested in owning it - I am quite happy with my current CD set up.


'Ello....???

Is that you Ray? Flying under false colours?? :-)

Oops, forgot I started using a different sig!


(Woss all this Cessna biz - you taking flying lessons or summat? :-)

Yes, I am just over half way through getting my pilots license - too many
interests!!

I haven't had anybody after that deck for a while - it hasn't been
featured on my site for a long time now, but the amazing thing is I
mentioned it to someone only yesterday!! If you want rid naybe I could
help you shift it or summat?

It would be better for the deck I think - havn't used it for a while as
the buttons keep sticking. Havn't got the confidence to go poking around
in there!

Me, build $%@#~ ... I never did get enough courage to build an amp!


Do you still want one? (valves, naturally...) I've got a spare one
(brand new) floating about through lack of space in my rack!!
(Overamped!! :-)

Oh no - I knew you would start tempting me again :-)


-- Cessna172

Sub woofer usefull in HiFi system?
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in
:


"Cessna172" wrote in message
.205...

I have tried many different speakers over the years, but if I go too
big in
the speaker for bass response, the overall sound suffers in my small
lounge.

There's a technical reason for this. For every enclosed space there is
a frequency below which response starts rising at about 12 dB per
octave. The smaller the space, the higher this frequency is. Most
speakers have some frequency below which their response starts falling
at 12 dB per octave. Thus, if you match the speaker to the room, the
point where the room starts rising matches the frequency where the
speaker starts falling off.

The Kef IQ5 I now have seem to suit my room very well. The bass is
tight and punchy, but certainly loses grunt when trying to reproduce
the deep notes from instruments like organs.

This would be symptomatic of a room that is too large to be optimal
for the speaker.

The speakers are quite small for floorstanders and their spec say they go
down to 43hz. Certainly the bass that is there drives the music along
very nicely indeed - drums also sounding great. However, put one of my
sons R&B stuff on (boy racer, car boot, sub woofer material) and the bass
is almost inaudable.

Would a subwoofer be a good idea to fill that gap?

Yes, but if you get the wrong subwoofer to match your room and your
existing speakers, and/or fail to set it up right, then you will have
either a hole or a bump in your bass.

Blimey - how does one match a subwoofer to a room? Wouldn't the controls
allow one to play until everything is matched correctly?


--
Cessna172

Sub woofer usefull in HiFi system?
 

"Serge Auckland" wrote in news:43a805e4$1_2
@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com:

In your case, I would get an active sub. If your amplifier provides an
output from the pre-amp, then you can drive the sub from that.

Just checked the Roksan site ...

Inputs Line Level (x5), Moving Magnet (x1), Tape (x1)
Input Impedance 47 kOhms
Input Sensitivity (115W) Line 470mV
Outputs Speaker L & R (x1), Preamplifier (x2), Tape (x1), Headphone (x1)

So I guess I can drive it from the pre-amp.

--
Cessna172

Sub woofer usefull in HiFi system?
 

In article ,
Cessna172 wrote:
Nice and easy. I listen to a lot of organ/piano/jazz and really miss the
low down grunt.

Perhaps your interconnects aren't quite as good as you claim, then? ;-)

--
*It is easier to get older than it is to get wiser.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.