Patrick Turner wrote:

Its safe to assume nothing of superlative quality comes out of asia.

This is not quite true. I know one Japanese amp manufacturer who gets
excellent transformers out of China. He goes with a design and a
prototype for precisely what he wants, he supervises the work, he
refuses to pay for the entire batch if the tiniest little thing is
wrong. The result is a superb transformer. It isn't however cheap. This
guy has merely shifted the costs from expensive Japanese labour into
expensive design and very expensive supervision (count his time and
airfares). It suits this manic obsessive because a Japanese winder will
never stand still for a customer refusing to pay for an entire batch
because he finds a rough spot on a casing, which is an actual example I
heard from his wife. (I also heard that in the beginning the Chinese
winders were so inexpert, they couldn't match supposedly identical
transformers to within half a Henry even in the same batch. My local
generator rewinders do better than that!) He makes a limp effort to
talk up the savings but I estimate, taking his time into account, that
the actual saving is maybe 10 per cent, which accounts for him being
able to sell super quality amps at 15 or even sometimes 20 per cent
below his nearest competitors, quality for quality; depending on
whether he gives the saving to the customer or takes half of it for
profit. (See below about multipliers.) But, since he doesn't sell on
price anyway, being at the top end of the market, his Chinese option
isn't price-driven but an aspect of control of all his component inputs
for which he is willing to pay in time and effort.

The significant thing is that I don't see those expensive transformer
designs ripped off by the Chinese and offered for sale in the West. (He
asked me once if he could protect his designs in China and I told him
not to bother trying because the effort would fail.) The reason is
clearly that the price of a proper transformer will be too high, so
that people will say they're saving too few bucks to risk a Chinese
transformer, and buy the known-good brand instead.

Thus, at the quality end of the market, a Chinese product isn't
necessarily going to be all that significantly cheaper after factoring
in the cost of the skills and time to get it up to the best standard.

Don't bother searching for cheap OPTs made in china.

There are none to be had that are any good.

A quick glance at the map will show you why. It costs to ship iron; it
costs to ship bulk. Even with the cheap Chinese labour, to make up for
the carriage they have to cheapen the entire thing, inevitably making
the transformer smaller for less weight and bulk, and therefore less
capable.

Thus far the problem for the DIYer, who usually buys at the end of a
very short distribution chain. (For instance, Lundahl transformers are
such good value for money because you can buy direct from the factory,
or via a single middleman.)

The problem for the Western amp manufacturer is different, at least at
the low end of the market. That cheap labour, and other quality
savings, in China is multiplied every time another middleman appears in
the chain. So a Chinese complete amp can cost forty per cent of price
of a cheap amp from the Western manufacturer. In the eyes of the less
discriminating consumer (probably new to tube amps) the price
difference is vastly larger than the quality difference. (1) That in
turns broadens the market to people who before could not afford a
luxury item, which in turns makes the position of the Western
manufacturer worse because he is set up for expensive niche market
manufacture, while the Chinese are mass market manufacturers. I expect
this spiral to continue and deepen, until in a few years when the
Western manufacturers have been driven out of business or at least out
of starter tube amps, the Chinese will use their low-end base to start
creeping upwards.

But I don't see why that is a problem for you, Patrick. Your typical
customer always wanted something better and always will. What will
happen is merely that the niche makers, like you, will benefit because
the Conrad Johnsons and ARCs, having lost their starter market, will
have to up the prices of their best gear to stay in business, so making
the niche makers more competitive and even more desirable.

It is a mistake for you always to be whining about costs. You should
talk about quality instead.

Andre Jute

(1) In a concurrent thread on UKRA, Keith G talks about buying three
Chinese tube amps... I don't know if he is new to tube amps, but his
eyes have been opened. It may be that, having learned the joy of tubes
amps from the cheap Chinese, he will next aspire to a really good
quality amp. It is equally possible that, unless his ears and taste are
very well-developed, he will find the improvement he can hear in a
quality tube amp not justified by several multiples of the cost of a
Chinese amp. I'm crossposting this to UKRA so we can hear his opinion.

Andre Jute wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

Its safe to assume nothing of superlative quality comes out of asia.

This is not quite true. I know one Japanese amp manufacturer who gets
excellent transformers out of China. He goes with a design and a
prototype for precisely what he wants, he supervises the work, he
refuses to pay for the entire batch if the tiniest little thing is
wrong. The result is a superb transformer. It isn't however cheap. This
guy has merely shifted the costs from expensive Japanese labour into
expensive design and very expensive supervision (count his time and
airfares). It suits this manic obsessive because a Japanese winder will
never stand still for a customer refusing to pay for an entire batch
because he finds a rough spot on a casing, which is an actual example I
heard from his wife. (I also heard that in the beginning the Chinese
winders were so inexpert, they couldn't match supposedly identical
transformers to within half a Henry even in the same batch. My local
generator rewinders do better than that!) He makes a limp effort to
talk up the savings but I estimate, taking his time into account, that
the actual saving is maybe 10 per cent, which accounts for him being
able to sell super quality amps at 15 or even sometimes 20 per cent
below his nearest competitors, quality for quality; depending on
whether he gives the saving to the customer or takes half of it for
profit. (See below about multipliers.) But, since he doesn't sell on
price anyway, being at the top end of the market, his Chinese option
isn't price-driven but an aspect of control of all his component inputs
for which he is willing to pay in time and effort.

You are right about all this.
By "out of asia", I generally meant China, Taiwan, Singapre, Thailand,
but maybe not Japan which developed excellence above the western competion
to create a market after the devastation of WW2.

I have had occasinal emails from ppl in China wanting orders for
transformers, so I say go to my website, and wind me ONE sample of OPT No1,

and send one to me to test.

They never speak to me after that.

I use neat layer wound coils with insulation layers between each
layer where a specifically accurate number of turns is placed.

I have never found anyone anywhere who understands exactly what i want.

I have made many local so called specialist winding company reps spew up
when i dictate to them what i want.

They always try to use random turns, less insulation and iron,
so its so far always ended with me sending a curt email telling them
they don't know how to wind transformers.

They all hate ppl like me wanting some really hard thing to do
that takes a guy all day to wind, with accurate turn counts,
NO crossed over turns, well impregnated, insulated,
and maybe 34 separate P&S windings each with two ends, and all terninated
properly on a board with turrets or some other proper method.

I like to be able to make a few amps rather than none and still have a not
to high a price, so I learnt all about trannies and wind all of my own,
thus avoiding having to pay some guy $1,000 for one OPT,
then be quite unable to recoup what I have paid for these crucial
components.

I have never had an OPT failure yet.

meanwhile I have had quite a few failed amps with shorted OPTs
come my way for repair, including what looks like a nice
Japanese Luxman, with not one, but two OPTs which are stuffed and a mains
tgranny
which hums so bad you hear it a block away;
Not all jap stuff is marvelous at all!





The significant thing is that I don't see those expensive transformer
designs ripped off by the Chinese and offered for sale in the West.

The chinese don't quite get it, and won't until there is a real revolution
their against the grip
of the communist party; when that is junked, maybe some ppl there
reall catch on to what real OPTs are about.

(He
asked me once if he could protect his designs in China and I told him
not to bother trying because the effort would fail.)

I would have welcomed someone in the world someplace who might
addopt my designs and offer them to me for my amps
for a reasonable price, but nobody has, and since there is no kudos in
copying
a design by a little known person such as myself, I have little to worry
about.

The reason is
clearly that the price of a proper transformer will be too high, so
that people will say they're saving too few bucks to risk a Chinese
transformer, and buy the known-good brand instead.

The vast majority of the market for OPTs is those who hate expense,
cannot tell quality even if they tripped over on it, and who think Hammond
is the bees knees.
And yes, the Chinese face a huge prejudice problem, like the prejudice
against
Japanese cars and goods in 1950.

I have no idea if they will lift their game....

And of course if they do make some wonderful thing, middle men
try to rip every one off, so I don't give a **** about asian trannies.

I doubt I will ever be able to deal honestly with some skilled person in
china
who winds it how i want it, puts it in a box and sends it to me,
without all these middlemen.
Notice how there are no chinese contributions to r.a.t?

The communist party has limited freedom, has thousands of ppl
monitoring what citizends are doing to control economic
growth in their favour.




Thus, at the quality end of the market, a Chinese product isn't
necessarily going to be all that significantly cheaper after factoring
in the cost of the skills and time to get it up to the best standard.

Don't bother searching for cheap OPTs made in china.

There are none to be had that are any good.

A quick glance at the map will show you why. It costs to ship iron; it
costs to ship bulk.

Wait a minute, a Hammond bought from a local importer here
charges about $200 aud for something costing USD $60 at the gate from the
Hammond
factory.

To make a Hammond as good as i would wind it would need about 3 hrs extra
labout, and $10 worth of materails, and chinese labour is dirt cheap.

I'd estimate the canadians at Hammond have vietnamses immigrants
slaving to make their product with assisting machines, and Hammond make a
profit.



Even with the cheap Chinese labour, to make up for
the carriage they have to cheapen the entire thing, inevitably making
the transformer smaller for less weight and bulk, and therefore less
capable.

The chinese realize that only mass production in large batches is
economical.
OPTs for the nit picking audiophile market never makes anyone rich.

But If I could buy direct from a sole trader in china and who had access to
a delivery
network that was efficient and cheap as the system is now between the US
and Oz
then he could make very nice wages for himself if i paid him USD $150
for and OPT.

The material price for a 5Kg OPT is about usd $9 per Kg here in Oz
and that's me buying tiny quantities.
In china, cost of materials between factories making wire and iron
is much cheaper, labour is $2 per day, so factory costs are
maybe less than Oz material costs are here for the completed item.

But along the way, someone wants more, greed is rampant.....
And the ability of an independant sole trader to operate freely
into foriegn markets unfetted by communist party regs and rorts is about
zero,
and then there is the language problem.
I will not learn chinese.



Thus far the problem for the DIYer, who usually buys at the end of a
very short distribution chain. (For instance, Lundahl transformers are
such good value for money because you can buy direct from the factory,
or via a single middleman.)


The problem for the Western amp manufacturer is different, at least at
the low end of the market. That cheap labour, and other quality
savings, in China is multiplied every time another middleman appears in
the chain. So a Chinese complete amp can cost forty per cent of price
of a cheap amp from the Western manufacturer.

Here in a local hi-fi store there are chinese 40 watt integrated amps with
2 x 6L6
per channel.
They sell for aud $2,400 each, about usd $1,800.
Maybe someone in china gets usd $200 for making them.


In the eyes of the less
discriminating consumer (probably new to tube amps) the price
difference is vastly larger than the quality difference. (1) That in
turns broadens the market to people who before could not afford a
luxury item, which in turns makes the position of the Western
manufacturer worse because he is set up for expensive niche market
manufacture, while the Chinese are mass market manufacturers. I expect
this spiral to continue and deepen, until in a few years when the
Western manufacturers have been driven out of business or at least out
of starter tube amps, the Chinese will use their low-end base to start
creeping upwards.

Hopefully I will be retired from the business by then.



But I don't see why that is a problem for you, Patrick. Your typical
customer always wanted something better and always will.

You are dead right.
There is always a small % who might spend more than the going rate when
they
have seen what has been done, and had a listen to the product.

Some people need a 50 ft yacht to get around the harbour on sundays.
They like to have teak decking and brass fittings, and a decent loo.

One could always not spend so much, and most people spend a minimum;
the majority of any market is the lowest common denominator product,
and many companies build their reputation on the flagship models, while the

profits come only from their budget models that are generic crap
but which have the name.



What will
happen is merely that the niche makers, like you, will benefit because
the Conrad Johnsons and ARCs, having lost their starter market, will
have to up the prices of their best gear to stay in business, so making
the niche makers more competitive and even more desirable.

I raise my hat to ARC and CJ, for their prices give the rest of us a
chance.



It is a mistake for you always to be whining about costs. You should
talk about quality instead.

Well I do have to worry about costs, so I can cram as much goody
in the amps for the customer.

But I don't stand much of a chance to get big and also get rich and
maintain the quality
because to do that is a team effort, and i should have started at 30,
not 52, and been able to attract a team, and capital investment.
To get rich, a decision to make say 100 amps has to be made, planned,
financed, ppl trained, ppl have to be brought together to market it,
and its all too much for one guy....

Halcro is a an Australian success story, because the amp designer
had a pal who liked amps and who had succeded with making a fortune
with silver and gold mining, and this pal gave his amp maker friend
a few mill to get a move on as a sideline effort and it went on on R&D
and market research and on novel production quality and travelling around
the world
with sample amps to get the right sort of reviews.

But I once saw a batch of 30 halcro chassis at a local anodizer guy here.
They'd get the cheapest guys around to do the work.
The guy was good, but the price mattered, meanwhile they
sell, their amps for $50,000 a pair....

I am a one man band, and probably nobody thinks any money could be made
making retro tube technology.
I mainly do what I do because I like it, not because i will ever
get rich.
Investors want a return on their investments.
The history of audio makers in Oz is littered with ppl who have tried and
failed, and gone bankrupt.

Andre Jute

(1) In a concurrent thread on UKRA, Keith G talks about buying three
Chinese tube amps... I don't know if he is new to tube amps, but his
eyes have been opened. It may be that, having learned the joy of tubes
amps from the cheap Chinese, he will next aspire to a really good
quality amp.

Keith likes to brag about the cheap chinese amps that sound so well.



It is equally possible that, unless his ears and taste are
very well-developed, he will find the improvement he can hear in a
quality tube amp not justified by several multiples of the cost of a
Chinese amp. I'm crossposting this to UKRA so we can hear his opinion.

We'll be bombarded with sales pitch.

Most of my income is from repairing amps;
So I don't need to rely on hand crafting.

I'd love to make many more amps but a bowl of rice in Oz costs more than in
china.

Everyone is getting used to paying zilch for everything.
I even bought a chinese DVD player for usd $60 18 mths ago
after a leg op when i though I'd be watching movies at home
but I have not used it yet, since I don't have time since the knees
improved.
But if it goes wrong, I place it in the bin, and buy another.
Remember when CD players first appeared and what they cost?

There are some folks who still get their shoes handmade
and their suits from a tailor.

The price isn't of great importance to them.

Patrick Turner.

Patrick Turner wrote:

Andre Jute wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

Its safe to assume nothing of superlative quality comes out of asia.

This is not quite true. I know one Japanese amp manufacturer who gets
excellent transformers out of China. He goes with a design and a
prototype for precisely what he wants, he supervises the work, he
refuses to pay for the entire batch if the tiniest little thing is
wrong. The result is a superb transformer. It isn't however cheap. This
guy has merely shifted the costs from expensive Japanese labour into
expensive design and very expensive supervision (count his time and
airfares). It suits this manic obsessive because a Japanese winder will
never stand still for a customer refusing to pay for an entire batch
because he finds a rough spot on a casing, which is an actual example I
heard from his wife. (I also heard that in the beginning the Chinese
winders were so inexpert, they couldn't match supposedly identical
transformers to within half a Henry even in the same batch. My local
generator rewinders do better than that!) He makes a limp effort to
talk up the savings but I estimate, taking his time into account, that
the actual saving is maybe 10 per cent, which accounts for him being
able to sell super quality amps at 15 or even sometimes 20 per cent
below his nearest competitors, quality for quality; depending on
whether he gives the saving to the customer or takes half of it for
profit. (See below about multipliers.) But, since he doesn't sell on
price anyway, being at the top end of the market, his Chinese option
isn't price-driven but an aspect of control of all his component inputs
for which he is willing to pay in time and effort.

You are right about all this.

First time I've actually seen Jute post anything of consequence. *And* ON_TOPIC
.. And actually sensible ! Goodness !!!!!

Good to see you're not *all* hot air Andre. ( I hope this wasn't the work of
that ghost writer of course )

Graham

"Patrick Turner" wrote
Andre Jute

(1) In a concurrent thread on UKRA, Keith G talks about buying three
Chinese tube amps... I don't know if he is new to tube amps, but his
eyes have been opened. It may be that, having learned the joy of tubes
amps from the cheap Chinese, he will next aspire to a really good
quality amp.

Keith likes to brag about the cheap chinese amps that sound so well.



Oi! I heard that!

Listen Patrick, me old china (oops) I don't *brag* about anything - I
express my own (usually fairly understated) opinions and reinforce them,
when I can, with the opinions of others who have been here to see.hear what
I'm up to.

If I say 'best ever' about anything it's up to the reader to make his own
mind up what that may or may not mean in the real world. I don't subscribe
to RAT (way too clicky for my taste) and only responded to André's crosspost
*by invitation* (note that my first reply is timed only ONE MINUTE later
than your own response) and I also don't make 'Brit' noises in Australian
newsgroups....

Valves have been an expensive rarety and quite out of the reach of ordinary
audio enthusiasts in the UK until fairly recently, all I have done is
explore them (at no small cost to myself, all in all), share my findings for
free and have thrown my door open to more than dozen different people (half
of them 'ukranians') to come and hear them - also for free, I don't charge
admission! (Eau contreau - it has usually *cost* me money to do it - dishing
out freebie records, 5 course lunches etc.)

So shoot me, why don'tcha?

Who knows, one of them might end up buying one of your amps as a result -
will I get any commission?

(Don't even bother to answer that....)





It is equally possible that, unless his ears and taste are
very well-developed, he will find the improvement he can hear in a
quality tube amp not justified by several multiples of the cost of a
Chinese amp. I'm crossposting this to UKRA so we can hear his opinion.

We'll be bombarded with sales pitch.


???

Who's *selling* anything - I don't give a FF what happens (or doesn't
happen) after I have stated an opinion or shared information that I have
paid for out of my own pocket to get. You are the 'professional' here and
your posts in ukra are a contuinuing, whining tirade against your own
*competition* and your inability to cope with it. You want to sell more
amps? Then get off your arse and do what everyone else has to - promote
them, advertise them, go to audio fairs and demonstrate them. Loan a few out
to 'prospects', send 'em to magazines and get them reviewed. Put a few on
eBay and take the hits that others are prepare to do, to to get things
moving!

As you say yourself: Audio History is littered with similarly arrogant
'cottage industrials' who went down the tubes because the world *didn't*
beat a path to their doors....

(Luckily, we in ukra didn't get to hear about it all, chapter and verse...)

Now, talk's cheap (nowhere more so than in Usenet) so I'll give you a real
life experience of mine: I started a Builder's Merchants from scratch
(that's a blend of supplier and banker, for those who don't know the
difference between a 'shop' and a 'merchant' - IOW, the financial risks are
enormous) and after a while opened up a materials yard within a mile of a
well-established competitor, a branch of a huge (RMC) chain, asitappens.
Anyway, I soon got politely invited for coffee by the manager of that branch
and was patronisingly* told what I may/need do (and not do) etc. etc....

Within 18 months I had shut him down...

(Same thing with a fleet of lorries a couple of years later, when one of my
regular suppliers 'went direct' the one time....)

Now, you go do the same with those inscrutable Chinamen and come and tell us
how you got on. 'Til then, have the courtesy to allow us *hobbyist Brits*
our own opinions in our own *hobbyist Brit* newsgroup, however much they may
stick up your nose.....



*I get a lot of that - even in here! (I 'smile' too much!! :-)

Keith G wrote:
Keith likes to brag about the cheap chinese amps that sound so
well.



Oi! I heard that!

is it me Keith or does patrick just talk rubbish ?

none of what he says about you is true

" Dave xxxx" wrote in message
.uk...
Keith G wrote:
Keith likes to brag about the cheap chinese amps that sound so well.



Oi! I heard that!

is it me Keith or does patrick just talk rubbish ?

none of what he says about you is true


:-)

Cheque's in the post Dave!! :-)

Pat's alright mostly - he's just got a lot of Sinophobic Steam to let off. I
don't mind up 'til the point he becomes just another 'auslander' telling us
pore Brits what to do. It's 'geographical' - mebbe we'd be the same if we
were professional amp builders getting bombed with a lot of cheapo French
amps...!!

:-P

"Keith G" wrote in
:

Valves have been an expensive rarety and quite out of the reach of
ordinary audio enthusiasts in the UK until fairly recently, all I have
done is explore them (at no small cost to myself, all in all), share
my findings for free and have thrown my door open to more than dozen
different people (half of them 'ukranians') to come and hear them -
also for free, I don't charge admission! (Eau contreau - it has
usually *cost* me money to do it - dishing out freebie records, 5
course lunches etc.)

Noted...a good dinner would go down nicely with my cup of tea :-)

I've heard all but one of Keith's amps and to me they are all better
than anything I could afford for the same price or sound in the UK
shops.

I like the valve sound and without the Chinese effect I wouldn't have
been able to afford a valve amp at all, but having said that I've
currently got a German Dynavox amp and an American Bellari phono stage.
I'm happy with these at the moment but they've certainly started me on
the long path to "greater" things.

Phil

"Phil North" wrote in message
...
"Keith G" wrote in
:

Valves have been an expensive rarety and quite out of the reach of
ordinary audio enthusiasts in the UK until fairly recently, all I have
done is explore them (at no small cost to myself, all in all), share
my findings for free and have thrown my door open to more than dozen
different people (half of them 'ukranians') to come and hear them -
also for free, I don't charge admission! (Eau contreau - it has
usually *cost* me money to do it - dishing out freebie records, 5
course lunches etc.)

Noted...a good dinner would go down nicely with my cup of tea :-)


OK, liver and bacon in thick onion gravy with mashed pertater, fresh, thin
sliced runner beans and a few tinned garden peas (for diversity/interest)
next time then? :-)



I've heard all but one of Keith's amps and to me they are all better
than anything I could afford for the same price or sound in the UK
shops.


Currys and Dixons? :-)


I like the valve sound and without the Chinese effect I wouldn't have
been able to afford a valve amp at all,


*Bingo!*

My point entirely....

I think some of the people here who are 'not UK based' have no idea what a
toughie it would be for most people to even get to *hear* a valve amp, never
mind buy one at the prices of up to a year or so ago!


but having said that I've
currently got a German Dynavox amp and an American Bellari phono stage.
I'm happy with these at the moment but they've certainly started me on
the long path to "greater" things.


Go on, 'fess up (you might as well) - it's the *SET* sound you like, isn't
it?? :-)

"Keith G" wrote in message

I think some of the people here who are 'not UK based' have no
idea what a toughie it would be for most people to even get to
*hear* a valve amp, never mind buy one at the prices of up to a
year or so ago!

Oh Keith, I thought no-one understood.

But listen, don't pick on our mascot. Patrick suffers from chronic
Davy Crockett Syndrome, and you really shouldn't make fun.

He can recite RDH4 backwards, and often does.

UK audiophiles have no need to resort to Oriental imports of
inferior quality. I'll make you something really good that works.

cheers, Ian

Phil North wrote in
:

I don't charge admission! (Eau contreau - it has usually *cost* me money
to do it - dishing out freebie records, 5 course lunches etc.)

At least I purchased fish and chips once :-)

--
Cessna172