OK, I've had a bit of a think - and I've written a protocol, which I
believe would be a basis of fair testing of audio components to
resolve such issues as cable sound etc.

I invite all here to read what I suggest, and let me know if I have
either missed something, or am being unfair on one direction or
another.

http://www.donepearce.plus.com/odds/dbt/

I think this could be a way of defusing the vituperation that
currently surrounds the subject.

So what do you think?

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
OK, I've had a bit of a think - and I've written a protocol, which I
believe would be a basis of fair testing of audio components to
resolve such issues as cable sound etc.

I invite all here to read what I suggest, and let me know if I have
either missed something, or am being unfair on one direction or
another.

http://www.donepearce.plus.com/odds/dbt/

I think this could be a way of defusing the vituperation that
currently surrounds the subject.

So what do you think?

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Don,

I think the protocol is sound, as a protocol, but in practice, I think that
doing the tests would be a very lengthy process, and whether anyone can
reasonably maintain concentration for that length of time is questionable. I
also would prefer to see an ABX regime, which obviously a coin-toss won't
allow.

It would be better, I feel, if there was a box that changed the cables (gold
plated relays or whatever) in a random ABX manner, keeping a record of what
change was made. In this way, the subject can make as many changes as often
as they want, and make either quick changes or listen for longer periods
before having to make a decision. It should not be too difficult to write a
program to make the switching and to record what switch was in effect at
what time. A standard PC GPI/O card can be used to drive the relays.

S.

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 11:34:11 -0000, "Serge Auckland"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
OK, I've had a bit of a think - and I've written a protocol, which I
believe would be a basis of fair testing of audio components to
resolve such issues as cable sound etc.

I invite all here to read what I suggest, and let me know if I have
either missed something, or am being unfair on one direction or
another.

http://www.donepearce.plus.com/odds/dbt/

I think this could be a way of defusing the vituperation that
currently surrounds the subject.

So what do you think?

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Don,

I think the protocol is sound, as a protocol, but in practice, I think that
doing the tests would be a very lengthy process, and whether anyone can
reasonably maintain concentration for that length of time is questionable. I
also would prefer to see an ABX regime, which obviously a coin-toss won't
allow.

It would be better, I feel, if there was a box that changed the cables (gold
plated relays or whatever) in a random ABX manner, keeping a record of what
change was made. In this way, the subject can make as many changes as often
as they want, and make either quick changes or listen for longer periods
before having to make a decision. It should not be too difficult to write a
program to make the switching and to record what switch was in effect at
what time. A standard PC GPI/O card can be used to drive the relays.

S.



The problem with the switch box is that it gives the believers their
necessary get-out clause. They will simply say that the box changed
the sound of the cables.

As for taking too long, a lazy Sunday afternoon should see this taken
care of.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Don Pearce wrote:

OK, I've had a bit of a think - and I've written a protocol, which I
believe would be a basis of fair testing of audio components to
resolve such issues as cable sound etc.

I invite all here to read what I suggest, and let me know if I have
either missed something, or am being unfair on one direction or
another.

http://www.donepearce.plus.com/odds/dbt/

I think this could be a way of defusing the vituperation that
currently surrounds the subject.

So what do you think?



Hello Mr Pearce,

What you suggest seems reasonable. We have done a very similar test with
great success (for speaker cables). In fact, after we did the test and
tried it out again and again just to be sure, I sent a mail to James
Randi himself, stating that I was ready to take the million dollar
challenge with the subject matter being distinguishing between speaker
cables. James Randi refused my challenge stating that "I accept, wire is
not wire"...

What I do not understand about this "vituperation" is that why is it
that some of you engineer types are not agreeing to do a reverse "test".
Just get yourself some demo exotic cables from a slimy high-end boutique
and plug them in to your systems (provided that you guys have any such
corresponding "system"s as some of us audiophools do). Do they have any
effect? Just listen and tell us. Just do it.

These "exotic" cables do not always yield desirable results, mind you. I
once tried out a "transparent" interconnect, costing some 240 euro's per
meter. And they made my system sound awfull, screeching highs, dry,
hollow bass, thin midrange etc. Up to that point in time, I actually
liked the products of transparent, in as much as I had heard them in
freinds' systems. So what was it about the look & feel of the trans
cables that made me "imagine" that they sounded like that? To take the
"mood" factor out of the equation I tried out the trans cables many
times over a period of time, I even drank some wine once to try to make
them more palatable. But each and every time I employed those cables
they put themselves forth as being "annoying", at best.

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:42:08 +0200, Forwarder wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

OK, I've had a bit of a think - and I've written a protocol, which I
believe would be a basis of fair testing of audio components to
resolve such issues as cable sound etc.

I invite all here to read what I suggest, and let me know if I have
either missed something, or am being unfair on one direction or
another.

http://www.donepearce.plus.com/odds/dbt/

I think this could be a way of defusing the vituperation that
currently surrounds the subject.

So what do you think?



Hello Mr Pearce,

What you suggest seems reasonable. We have done a very similar test with
great success (for speaker cables). In fact, after we did the test and
tried it out again and again just to be sure, I sent a mail to James
Randi himself, stating that I was ready to take the million dollar
challenge with the subject matter being distinguishing between speaker
cables. James Randi refused my challenge stating that "I accept, wire is
not wire"...


Randi won't get any argument here - wire isn't wire. But competent
wire is boutique wire.

What I do not understand about this "vituperation" is that why is it
that some of you engineer types are not agreeing to do a reverse "test".
Just get yourself some demo exotic cables from a slimy high-end boutique
and plug them in to your systems (provided that you guys have any such
corresponding "system"s as some of us audiophools do). Do they have any
effect? Just listen and tell us. Just do it.

Well, we have - and we hear no difference. But how do we prove this?
Even in a DBT we could simply lie and randomize or guesses. So no, the
proof can only be found by somebody who believes he can hear a
difference showing that he can in fact do so.

These "exotic" cables do not always yield desirable results, mind you. I
once tried out a "transparent" interconnect, costing some 240 euro's per
meter. And they made my system sound awfull, screeching highs, dry,
hollow bass, thin midrange etc. Up to that point in time, I actually
liked the products of transparent, in as much as I had heard them in
freinds' systems. So what was it about the look & feel of the trans
cables that made me "imagine" that they sounded like that? To take the
"mood" factor out of the equation I tried out the trans cables many
times over a period of time, I even drank some wine once to try to make
them more palatable. But each and every time I employed those cables
they put themselves forth as being "annoying", at best.


Do bear in mind that there are exotic cables which in fact have boxes
with capacitors and resistors in to deliberately change the frequency
response. These do not, of course qualify as cables. Are they what you
are talking about? If they aren't, go win yourself a grand for no
work.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Don Pearce wrote:

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:42:08 +0200, Forwarder wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:




What I do not understand about this "vituperation" is that why is it
that some of you engineer types are not agreeing to do a reverse "test".
Just get yourself some demo exotic cables from a slimy high-end boutique
and plug them in to your systems (provided that you guys have any such
corresponding "system"s as some of us audiophools do). Do they have any
effect? Just listen and tell us. Just do it.


Well, we have - and we hear no difference.

Are you speaking for yourself Mr Pearce, or for ALL who proclaim to
adhere to a given set of thought?

But how do we prove this?

*You* don't need to prove anything Mr Pearce. If you have tried some
exotic interconnects (for instance) and heard that they made no
difference in your system (whatever that may be) and say so then I for
one believe you.

What you heard does not alter what I hear though..



Do bear in mind that there are exotic cables which in fact have boxes
with capacitors and resistors in to deliberately change the frequency
response.

Yes the transparents had a such "box-like" thing in between the ends. It
looked good but boy were they terrible in matters pertaining to sound. I
did have though, a very similar experience with "glim audio" made cables
that did not have any such boxes, etc, in between. During my "auditions"
of cables, amps, cd players, etc (you see, it's a hobby with me, this
high end mumbo jumbo, as my wife tends to call it) and I can comfortably
say that %40 of the time I have found myself actively disliking the
sound of a given equipment. And yes, expensive as they were, some did
not even make any difference! That trans example was just one.

The interconnects I use now are "silverfi" .. they are braided in a
special way, hard work, Turkish made, no boxes or somesuch other stuff
in between, and yes "tight bass", "better transients", "liguid, dreamy
midrange" all that mumbo jumbo slimy audiophool stuff. But I can't help
it, they give me joy, I hear the wonderfull difference they make, and
OK, come on over one lazy sunday and let's do that test Mr Pearce. I can
say with %100 percent certainty that I can hear the difference they make
as compared to the interconnect that came out of the 90 euro yamaha dvd
player I recently bought for the kid's room. I have the same "claim" for
the speaker cables I use..

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:35:53 +0200, Forwarder wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:42:08 +0200, Forwarder wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:




What I do not understand about this "vituperation" is that why is it
that some of you engineer types are not agreeing to do a reverse "test".
Just get yourself some demo exotic cables from a slimy high-end boutique
and plug them in to your systems (provided that you guys have any such
corresponding "system"s as some of us audiophools do). Do they have any
effect? Just listen and tell us. Just do it.


Well, we have - and we hear no difference.

Are you speaking for yourself Mr Pearce, or for ALL who proclaim to
adhere to a given set of thought?

But how do we prove this?

*You* don't need to prove anything Mr Pearce. If you have tried some
exotic interconnects (for instance) and heard that they made no
difference in your system (whatever that may be) and say so then I for
one believe you.

What you heard does not alter what I hear though..



Do bear in mind that there are exotic cables which in fact have boxes
with capacitors and resistors in to deliberately change the frequency
response.

Yes the transparents had a such "box-like" thing in between the ends. It
looked good but boy were they terrible in matters pertaining to sound. I
did have though, a very similar experience with "glim audio" made cables
that did not have any such boxes, etc, in between. During my "auditions"
of cables, amps, cd players, etc (you see, it's a hobby with me, this
high end mumbo jumbo, as my wife tends to call it) and I can comfortably
say that %40 of the time I have found myself actively disliking the
sound of a given equipment. And yes, expensive as they were, some did
not even make any difference! That trans example was just one.

The interconnects I use now are "silverfi" .. they are braided in a
special way, hard work, Turkish made, no boxes or somesuch other stuff
in between, and yes "tight bass", "better transients", "liguid, dreamy
midrange" all that mumbo jumbo slimy audiophool stuff. But I can't help
it, they give me joy, I hear the wonderfull difference they make, and
OK, come on over one lazy sunday and let's do that test Mr Pearce. I can
say with %100 percent certainty that I can hear the difference they make
as compared to the interconnect that came out of the 90 euro yamaha dvd
player I recently bought for the kid's room. I have the same "claim" for
the speaker cables I use..

OK - where do you live?

When you say 100% certainty, do you mean we can forget the 16 out of
20 and go for a straight 20 out of 20? If so, then I will happily
forego the second set of trials if you succeed.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Don Pearce wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:35:53 +0200, Forwarder wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:


On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:42:08 +0200, Forwarder wrote:



Don Pearce wrote:




What I do not understand about this "vituperation" is that why is it
that some of you engineer types are not agreeing to do a reverse "test".
Just get yourself some demo exotic cables from a slimy high-end boutique
and plug them in to your systems (provided that you guys have any such
corresponding "system"s as some of us audiophools do). Do they have any
effect? Just listen and tell us. Just do it.


Well, we have - and we hear no difference.

Are you speaking for yourself Mr Pearce, or for ALL who proclaim to
adhere to a given set of thought?


But how do we prove this?

*You* don't need to prove anything Mr Pearce. If you have tried some
exotic interconnects (for instance) and heard that they made no
difference in your system (whatever that may be) and say so then I for
one believe you.

What you heard does not alter what I hear though..


Do bear in mind that there are exotic cables which in fact have boxes
with capacitors and resistors in to deliberately change the frequency
response.

Yes the transparents had a such "box-like" thing in between the ends. It
looked good but boy were they terrible in matters pertaining to sound. I
did have though, a very similar experience with "glim audio" made cables
that did not have any such boxes, etc, in between. During my "auditions"
of cables, amps, cd players, etc (you see, it's a hobby with me, this
high end mumbo jumbo, as my wife tends to call it) and I can comfortably
say that %40 of the time I have found myself actively disliking the
sound of a given equipment. And yes, expensive as they were, some did
not even make any difference! That trans example was just one.

The interconnects I use now are "silverfi" .. they are braided in a
special way, hard work, Turkish made, no boxes or somesuch other stuff
in between, and yes "tight bass", "better transients", "liguid, dreamy
midrange" all that mumbo jumbo slimy audiophool stuff. But I can't help
it, they give me joy, I hear the wonderfull difference they make, and
OK, come on over one lazy sunday and let's do that test Mr Pearce. I can
say with %100 percent certainty that I can hear the difference they make
as compared to the interconnect that came out of the 90 euro yamaha dvd
player I recently bought for the kid's room. I have the same "claim" for
the speaker cables I use..


OK - where do you live?

Finland, Helsinki, Espoo. But I will give away the details of my address
only via private email. The *time* of when the test will take place is
also proivate info. The results are, of course, for everyone to see.


When you say 100% certainty, do you mean we can forget the 16 out of
20 and go for a straight 20 out of 20?

I thought it was 15? No, I'll keep that err margin accounting for the
stress induced by actually performing such a test.

If so, then I will happily
forego the second set of trials if you succeed.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 14:35:53 +0200, Forwarder wrote:

The interconnects I use now are "silverfi" .. they are braided in a
special way, hard work, Turkish made, no boxes or somesuch other stuff
in between, and yes "tight bass", "better transients", "liguid, dreamy
midrange" all that mumbo jumbo slimy audiophool stuff. But I can't help
it, they give me joy, I hear the wonderfull difference they make, and
OK, come on over one lazy sunday and let's do that test Mr Pearce. I can
say with %100 percent certainty that I can hear the difference they make
as compared to the interconnect that came out of the 90 euro yamaha dvd
player I recently bought for the kid's room. I have the same "claim" for
the speaker cables I use..

And yet, you duck a chance to *prove* that and pick up an easy £1,000.
How nice, to be that rich, and uncaring of proving your beliefs.....
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 13:42:08 +0200, Forwarder wrote:


What I do not understand about this "vituperation" is that why is it
that some of you engineer types are not agreeing to do a reverse
"test". Just get yourself some demo exotic cables from a slimy
high-end boutique and plug them in to your systems (provided that you
guys have any such corresponding "system"s as some of us audiophools
do). Do they have any effect? Just listen and tell us. Just do it.

Well, we have - and we hear no difference.

Mentioning

http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioM...kracables.html

again may be useful here.

FWIW I have also, repeatedly, engaged in tests like this, both on myself,
and trying them on others. The results were as Don says, and as implied by
the above reference.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html