Yo, Keith, this might interest you and your friends as well. You are
invited because at our recent Chinese theme party you were so well
behaved... And we discovered a lotta tubies hiding out among the
ukrainians. AJ

Andre Jute wrote:
In horns, as in everything in life, you get what you pay for.

Nowhere is this better illustrated than in the current thread "Horns
are bad", in which some apparently underprivileged audiophiles
pontificate weightily about public address horns and sound
reinforcement horns and mickey mouse high frequency horns to fill out
the top end of multicone boxes. This is a hi-fi conference. Those
aren't hi-fi horns.

A hi-fi horn is a point-source, full-range speaker. The least expensive
possibly good ones are made with Fostex drivers, the guaranteed good
ones are made with Lowther drivers, those with extra drool-factor are
custom-made to order by Tannoy and deservedly called Royal Westminster.
Even at the bottom, Fostex end, horns are not for the impecunious; good
hi-fi horns start a long way up the speaker price range. Poor
audiophiles can get a taste of point source speakers in tapered
quarterwave pipes, also called Voigt pipes after their inventor, the
original Lowther designer Paul Voigt. (Note the absent h.)

What a good horn is good for in hi-fi is precisely what good panels are
good for in hi-fi, a stunning midrange and very clean bass and treble.
The owners of panels and horns are almost always big fans of vocals and
small instrumental ensembles. I have both Quad ESL63 electrostats and
Lowther Fidelio horns in the same room often visited by professional
musicians and can vouch for the authority of each quieting conversation
instantly. It is not that they are not good for large-scale music as
well, but that horns and panels bring you especially close to
individual musicians in smaller groups or performing solo.

It is a fallacy that you cannot get deep bass on panels or horns. In
either case all that is required for deep bass is space and money. In
panels you simply stack as many pairs of ESL as are required to give
bass as deep as you want or the room will take. In horns you simply
make the horn larger until, if necessary, it occupies a room of its own
or you have to dig up the lawn to bury it in the garden. The pure
quality of the sound and the authority of the horn, or the clarity of
the panels, may make this worthwhile to you. The truth is that few who
have heard the bell-like purity of Quad panels or the spine-rippling
authority of a Lowther horn can be bothered to mess around trying to
improve what is already near-perfect. In fact the truth is the
opposite: those with experience of horns deliberately design horns to
limit the frequency extremes to guarantee the cleanest sound; even Quad
owners who own more than one pair rarely stack their panels except in
spaces too large for one pair to fill.

We, the lucky owners, don't care about the opinions of underprivileged
"engineers". We live in bliss already. That is what hi-fi is about:
hedonism.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...
Yo, Keith, this might interest you and your friends as well. You are
invited because at our recent Chinese theme party you were so well
behaved... And we discovered a lotta tubies hiding out among the
ukrainians. AJ


Lumme, it's been a while since I had an 'invite'...!! :-)

(I ironed a shirt, but I can't find me cufflinks....)


Andre Jute wrote:
In horns, as in everything in life, you get what you pay for.


Hah! Who told you that - Jim Carfrae?



Nowhere is this better illustrated than in the current thread "Horns
are bad", in which some apparently underprivileged audiophiles
pontificate weightily about public address horns and sound
reinforcement horns and mickey mouse high frequency horns to fill out
the top end of multicone boxes. This is a hi-fi conference. Those
aren't hi-fi horns.


OK, we haven't seen that in ukra...

Not 'hifi horns'? - Neither are foghorns, ships 'whistles', the triple-tones
found on classic English sports cars (even the dualtones on trains) or all
those shiny things you see in orchestras but they all make a lovely sound!!
:-)

(Tubas are particularly nice...!! :-)


A hi-fi horn is a point-source, full-range speaker. The least expensive
possibly good ones are made with Fostex drivers,


Actually the Visaton drivers are a third of the price of Fostex and give a
bassier, more 'rounded sound' - if conceding a little 'classiness' and
finesse/delicacy...


the guaranteed good
ones are made with Lowther drivers,


My eyes are fixed firmly in that direction - the chin is lifted, the lips
are pursed, the brow is furrowed....


those with extra drool-factor are
custom-made to order by Tannoy and deservedly called Royal Westminster.
Even at the bottom, Fostex end, horns are not for the impecunious; good
hi-fi horns start a long way up the speaker price range. Poor
audiophiles can get a taste of point source speakers in tapered
quarterwave pipes, also called Voigt pipes after their inventor, the
original Lowther designer Paul Voigt. (Note the absent h.)


Yes indeed they can - I already done Needles and Buschhorns and I'm now on a
pair of Jerichos:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/titl...20speakers.htm

Others are puddling along in the same general direction and we chatter - see
this extract from an email I received earlier this evening:

"Keith,

As you can see, the Castles have gone - soon to power up the DVD-TV setup in
the other room...

I am now a total convert to Full Range speakers - they are absolutely
superb..."

and here are his beauties (not finished yet:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Dougie1.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Dougie2.jpg



What a good horn is good for in hi-fi is precisely what good panels are
good for in hi-fi, a stunning midrange and very clean bass and treble.


Yes.


The owners of panels and horns are almost always big fans of vocals and
small instrumental ensembles.


Yes, but not exclusively so - this week's standout 'rediscoveries' have been
Mingus' 'Tijuana Moods' and PF's 'Ummagumma'...

(It's the *clarity*...!!)


I have both Quad ESL63 electrostats and
Lowther Fidelio horns in the same room often visited by professional
musicians and can vouch for the authority of each quieting conversation
instantly.


:-)


It is not that they are not good for large-scale music as
well, but that horns and panels bring you especially close to
individual musicians in smaller groups or performing solo.

It is a fallacy that you cannot get deep bass on panels or horns.


:-)

I know that, you know that... ;-)

(The 'Foghorn' reference above should give a leetle clue as to what *is*
possible....)


In
either case all that is required for deep bass is space and money.


A folded 15 foot horn'll go as low as you could ever want, I'm reliably
informed....



We, the lucky owners, don't care about the opinions of underprivileged
"engineers".


We don't neither...


We live in bliss already. That is what hi-fi is about:
hedonism.


I must be doing summat wrong then - it's harder work than 'working for a
living'...!! ;-)

Keith G wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...
Yo, Keith, this might interest you and your friends as well. You are
invited because at our recent Chinese theme party you were so well
behaved... And we discovered a lotta tubies hiding out among the
ukrainians. AJ


Lumme, it's been a while since I had an 'invite'...!! :-)

(I ironed a shirt, but I can't find me cufflinks....)


Andre Jute wrote:
In horns, as in everything in life, you get what you pay for.


Hah! Who told you that - Jim Carfrae?



Nowhere is this better illustrated than in the current thread "Horns
are bad", in which some apparently underprivileged audiophiles
pontificate weightily about public address horns and sound
reinforcement horns and mickey mouse high frequency horns to fill out
the top end of multicone boxes. This is a hi-fi conference. Those
aren't hi-fi horns.

OK, we haven't seen that in ukra...

Lucky you. It was a troll to start with and has now degenerated into a
bunfight about which transistor amp sounds worse than a piece of
straight wire.

Not 'hifi horns'? - Neither are foghorns, ships 'whistles', the triple-tones
found on classic English sports cars (even the dualtones on trains) or all
those shiny things you see in orchestras but they all make a lovely sound!!
:-)

(Tubas are particularly nice...!! :-)

A hi-fi horn is a point-source, full-range speaker.

The least expensive
possibly good ones are made with Fostex drivers,


Actually the Visaton drivers are a third of the price of Fostex and give a
bassier, more 'rounded sound' - if conceding a little 'classiness' and
finesse/delicacy...

I think that once a DIY loudspeaker goes over a couple of hundred quid
-- which is several times that in high-street value -- refinement
becomes of the essence.

the guaranteed good
ones are made with Lowther drivers,


My eyes are fixed firmly in that direction - the chin is lifted, the lips
are pursed, the brow is furrowed....

Never mind the stiff upper lip and pulling the tummy in, Keith. Sit
down before you ask the price! I know, I know, the sound will please
long after the price is forgotten, as that noted audiophile Henry Royce
said, but a coupla Christmasses ago I stuck an allen key through a
Lowther foam surround while hurrying to finish a speaker, and I'm still
smarting from the price of a replacement pair...

those with extra drool-factor are
custom-made to order by Tannoy and deservedly called Royal Westminster.
Even at the bottom, Fostex end, horns are not for the impecunious; good
hi-fi horns start a long way up the speaker price range. Poor
audiophiles can get a taste of point source speakers in tapered
quarterwave pipes, also called Voigt pipes after their inventor, the
original Lowther designer Paul Voigt. (Note the absent h.)


Yes indeed they can - I already done Needles and Buschhorns and I'm now on a
pair of Jerichos:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/titl...20speakers.htm

Others are puddling along in the same general direction and we chatter - see
this extract from an email I received earlier this evening:

"Keith,

As you can see, the Castles have gone - soon to power up the DVD-TV setup in
the other room...

I am now a total convert to Full Range speakers - they are absolutely
superb..."

and here are his beauties (not finished yet:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Dougie1.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Dougie2.jpg

Ooh, I am impressed. My speakers hardly ever reach the stage of being
painted before they go to a good home.

What a good horn is good for in hi-fi is precisely what good panels are
good for in hi-fi, a stunning midrange and very clean bass and treble.


Yes.


The owners of panels and horns are almost always big fans of vocals and
small instrumental ensembles.


Yes, but not exclusively so - this week's standout 'rediscoveries' have been
Mingus' 'Tijuana Moods' and PF's 'Ummagumma'...

(It's the *clarity*...!!)


I have both Quad ESL63 electrostats and
Lowther Fidelio horns in the same room often visited by professional
musicians and can vouch for the authority of each quieting conversation
instantly.


:-)


It is not that they are not good for large-scale music as
well, but that horns and panels bring you especially close to
individual musicians in smaller groups or performing solo.

It is a fallacy that you cannot get deep bass on panels or horns.

:-)

I know that, you know that... ;-)

(The 'Foghorn' reference above should give a leetle clue as to what *is*
possible....)


In
either case all that is required for deep bass is space and money.


A folded 15 foot horn'll go as low as you could ever want, I'm reliably
informed....

Herself might have something to say about you digging up the floor to
install it... Here's a smaller version:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...20T91HWAF3.jpg
and here
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/JUTE%20ON%20AMPS.htm
you will find amps to drive it that you can build for almost as little
as your Chinese amps cost.

We, the lucky owners, don't care about the opinions of underprivileged
"engineers".


We don't neither...


We live in bliss already. That is what hi-fi is about:
hedonism.


I must be doing summat wrong then - it's harder work than 'working for a
living'...!! ;-)

You reward will be in another world. -- Bill Deeds to a journalist
foolish enough to ask for a raise.

Andre Jute
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/
"wonderfully well written and reasoned information
for the tube audio constructor"
John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare
"an unbelievably comprehensive web site
containing vital gems of wisdom"
Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review

"Andre Jute" wrote

I think that once a DIY loudspeaker goes over a couple of hundred quid
-- which is several times that in high-street value -- refinement
becomes of the essence.


Yes, agreed.



the guaranteed good
ones are made with Lowther drivers,


My eyes are fixed firmly in that direction - the chin is lifted, the lips
are pursed, the brow is furrowed....

Never mind the stiff upper lip and pulling the tummy in, Keith. Sit
down before you ask the price!


I'm only too well aware of the price - the ones I have in mind look like
costing 1,500 UKP a pair!!

(We'll see...!! ;-)


I know, I know, the sound will please
long after the price is forgotten, as that noted audiophile Henry Royce
said, but a coupla Christmasses ago I stuck an allen key through a
Lowther foam surround while hurrying to finish a speaker, and I'm still
smarting from the price of a replacement pair...


Replacement pair? Was that *entirely* not fixable...???

(Even if it meant sending the damaged driver off?)

Did it affect the sound much?



and here are his beauties (not finished yet:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Dougie1.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/Dougie2.jpg

Ooh, I am impressed. My speakers hardly ever reach the stage of being
painted before they go to a good home.


Sorry if I mislead you, I haven't built those - they were built by someone
(Dougie) I have been chatting to. I left this bit out...

"Many thanks for the encouragement..."

....purely out of modesty! :-)



A folded 15 foot horn'll go as low as you could ever want, I'm reliably
informed....

Herself might have something to say about you digging up the floor to
install it... Here's a smaller version:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...20T91HWAF3.jpg
and here
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/JUTE%20ON%20AMPS.htm
you will find amps to drive it that you can build for almost as little
as your Chinese amps cost.



Excellent stuff, but I am only just in from my workshop (garage) from these:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/L1070449.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/L1070450.JPG


.....a few minutes ago (for a cup o' tea) and will be back out there
shortly....

(There is a fair bit more to go in and the buggers are weighing a ton
already. That's mostly 21mm ply....:-)

They will sing sometime next week - I eschew 'machine noise' at the
weekends, so I won't get them finished (raw state) for a few days yet. I
already have the amp to drive them (pro temps) - my 2A3 LW SET...

Incidentally, I don't have time to go into it right now but I believe the
only/best by far amp for these horns is a SET - I wonder how many people who
dismiss them so readily have never heard them thus.....



I must be doing summat wrong then - it's harder work than 'working for a
living'...!! ;-)

You reward will be in another world. -- Bill Deeds to a journalist
foolish enough to ask for a raise.


Sounds like a Spiderman quote to me.....

Keith G wrote:
"Andre Jute" wrote

the guaranteed good
ones are made with Lowther drivers,

My eyes are fixed firmly in that direction - the chin is lifted, the lips
are pursed, the brow is furrowed....

Never mind the stiff upper lip and pulling the tummy in, Keith. Sit
down before you ask the price!

I'm only too well aware of the price - the ones I have in mind look like
costing 1,500 UKP a pair!!

(We'll see...!! ;-)


I know, I know, the sound will please
long after the price is forgotten, as that noted audiophile Henry Royce
said, but a coupla Christmasses ago I stuck an allen key through a
Lowther foam surround while hurrying to finish a speaker, and I'm still
smarting from the price of a replacement pair...


Replacement pair? Was that *entirely* not fixable...???

Lowthers have a long break-in period and settle over the years, so you
don't replace one, you replace the pair. This particular pair had
further been treated with Enemoser's Lack, which itself has a break-in
period that can stretch a bit. So replacing one would make the sound a
bit off-balance.

As for fixing it, the hole was too big. The foam surround on Lowthers
weaken after twenty years or so, and one wants to take very great care
of it then, because the oldest Lowthers are the most desirable. This
wasn't so much a small allen-key sized hole as the foam crumbling.
Lowther used to recone and refoam drivers, I believe, but that was
before my time. Now they offer a new for old exchange scheme.

(Even if it meant sending the damaged driver off?)

Did it affect the sound much?

Playing the broken speaker accidentally ripped a bigger hole in it.

I haven't made the exchange yet because I am loath to let the treated,
well-settled driver go. I'm thinking of going exclusively mono, not
because of this incident but because much of the time I have my
speakers arranged to be a single source, ESL behind each other for
instance. Generally speaking, the only time I listen in stereo is when
I use ESL like big headphones, one each side of my chair. That also
works with horns (in widish rooms) but my favourite horn use is as a
corner horn, one horn at a time. That may not suit everyone's music but
it suits me fine.

A folded 15 foot horn'll go as low as you could ever want, I'm reliably
informed....

Herself might have something to say about you digging up the floor to
install it... Here's a smaller version:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/K...20T91HWAF3.jpg
and here
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/JUTE%20ON%20AMPS.htm
you will find amps to drive it that you can build for almost as little
as your Chinese amps cost.

Excellent stuff, but I am only just in from my workshop (garage) from these:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/L1070449.JPG

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/L1070450.JPG

....a few minutes ago (for a cup o' tea) and will be back out there
shortly....

(There is a fair bit more to go in and the buggers are weighing a ton
already. That's mostly 21mm ply....:-)

And when you finish varnishing those, you'll be due a break you could
spend in Ireland varnishing mi... I mean having a holiday.

They will sing sometime next week - I eschew 'machine noise' at the
weekends, so I won't get them finished (raw state) for a few days yet. I
already have the amp to drive them (pro temps) - my 2A3 LW SET...

Incidentally, I don't have time to go into it right now but I believe the
only/best by far amp for these horns is a SET - I wonder how many people who
dismiss them so readily have never heard them thus.....

I don't care about the sneerers and jeerers. Most of them formed their
opinion without ever listening to a SETH chain. Some of them are so
underprivileged that when one says "horns" they automatically think
"PA". Ugh!

Andre Jute

"Andre Jute" wrote in message
oups.com...

A hi-fi horn is a point-source, full-range speaker. The least expensive
possibly good ones are made with Fostex drivers, the guaranteed good
ones are made with Lowther drivers, those with extra drool-factor are
custom-made to order by Tannoy and deservedly called Royal Westminster.

http://www.audiophile.com.au/tnny_sp..._wstmnstr.html

Ironically the Royal Westminster is a 2-way speaker with vestigial horn
loading of its direct-radiator lower range direct radiator driver. It's not
really a full-range horn. It's a horn mid-tweeter mated to a driver that is
a direct radiator over much of its active range.

"Andre Jute" wrote

Replacement pair? Was that *entirely* not fixable...???

Lowthers have a long break-in period and settle over the years, so you
don't replace one, you replace the pair. This particular pair had
further been treated with Enemoser's Lack, which itself has a break-in
period that can stretch a bit. So replacing one would make the sound a
bit off-balance.


OK but you could run a replacement on its own endlessly to catch it up a bit
by playing the radio through it and shutting the door on it?



As for fixing it, the hole was too big. The foam surround on Lowthers
weaken after twenty years or so, and one wants to take very great care
of it then, because the oldest Lowthers are the most desirable. This
wasn't so much a small allen-key sized hole as the foam crumbling.
Lowther used to recone and refoam drivers, I believe, but that was
before my time. Now they offer a new for old exchange scheme.


Hmm, that's never totally appealing, is it?



(Even if it meant sending the damaged driver off?)

Did it affect the sound much?

Playing the broken speaker accidentally ripped a bigger hole in it.


Ok, it was stuffed then....


I haven't made the exchange yet because I am loath to let the treated,
well-settled driver go. I'm thinking of going exclusively mono, not
because of this incident but because much of the time I have my
speakers arranged to be a single source, ESL behind each other for
instance. Generally speaking, the only time I listen in stereo is when
I use ESL like big headphones, one each side of my chair. That also
works with horns (in widish rooms) but my favourite horn use is as a
corner horn, one horn at a time. That may not suit everyone's music but
it suits me fine.


Which is fair enough.



And when you finish varnishing those, you'll be due a break you could
spend in Ireland varnishing mi... I mean having a holiday.


I can't stand varnished ply, I'm painting mine with emulsion paint - it's
possible to get a really 'velvety' finish with 2 or 3 coats and a rub of
sandpaper in between coats. (The Jerichos will be black - looks good with
the Fostex 'banana yellow!!) Later they can be glossed, lacquered, sprayed
or whatever. (I also don't like veneers at the moment - I don't have any
rubber gloves and I don't want to catch a veneerial disease...)


I don't care about the sneerers and jeerers. Most of them formed their
opinion without ever listening to a SETH chain. Some of them are so
underprivileged that when one says "horns" they automatically think
"PA". Ugh!


I also couldn't give a FF, I'm listening to a Radio 3 choral concert atm -
never mind the oustanding quality of the voices and piano (tone/timbre) the
'spatiality' in the *applause* is worth listening to alone! No escaping
steam, no 'heavy rainfall' - just *clapping*! It is easy to single out a
number of individuals and picture the relative distances. Best of all
though, the sound is no more related to the speakers than it is to a pair of
pictures on the facing wall - it's almost like someone could carry them out
of the room and the 'soundscape' would be unaffected...!!

But enough of this, it's always difficult to describe 'sound' without coming
across like a **** - there are those who *know* what I'm referring to and
those who never will.....

Keith G wrote:

"Andre Jute" wrote

Replacement pair? Was that *entirely* not fixable...???

Lowthers have a long break-in period and settle over the years, so you
don't replace one, you replace the pair. This particular pair had
further been treated with Enemoser's Lack, which itself has a break-in
period that can stretch a bit. So replacing one would make the sound a
bit off-balance.

OK but you could run a replacement on its own endlessly to catch it up a bit
by playing the radio through it and shutting the door on it?


As for fixing it, the hole was too big. The foam surround on Lowthers
weaken after twenty years or so, and one wants to take very great care
of it then, because the oldest Lowthers are the most desirable. This
wasn't so much a small allen-key sized hole as the foam crumbling.
Lowther used to recone and refoam drivers, I believe, but that was
before my time. Now they offer a new for old exchange scheme.

Hmm, that's never totally appealing, is it?


(Even if it meant sending the damaged driver off?)

Did it affect the sound much?

Playing the broken speaker accidentally ripped a bigger hole in it.

Ok, it was stuffed then....


I haven't made the exchange yet because I am loath to let the treated,
well-settled driver go. I'm thinking of going exclusively mono, not
because of this incident but because much of the time I have my
speakers arranged to be a single source, ESL behind each other for
instance. Generally speaking, the only time I listen in stereo is when
I use ESL like big headphones, one each side of my chair. That also
works with horns (in widish rooms) but my favourite horn use is as a
corner horn, one horn at a time. That may not suit everyone's music but
it suits me fine.

Which is fair enough.

And when you finish varnishing those, you'll be due a break you could
spend in Ireland varnishing mi... I mean having a holiday.

I can't stand varnished ply, I'm painting mine with emulsion paint - it's
possible to get a really 'velvety' finish with 2 or 3 coats and a rub of
sandpaper in between coats. (The Jerichos will be black - looks good with
the Fostex 'banana yellow!!) Later they can be glossed, lacquered, sprayed
or whatever. (I also don't like veneers at the moment - I don't have any
rubber gloves and I don't want to catch a veneerial disease...)

I don't care about the sneerers and jeerers. Most of them formed their
opinion without ever listening to a SETH chain. Some of them are so
underprivileged that when one says "horns" they automatically think
"PA". Ugh!

I also couldn't give a FF, I'm listening to a Radio 3 choral concert atm -
never mind the oustanding quality of the voices and piano (tone/timbre) the
'spatiality' in the *applause* is worth listening to alone! No escaping
steam, no 'heavy rainfall' - just *clapping*! It is easy to single out a
number of individuals and picture the relative distances. Best of all
though, the sound is no more related to the speakers than it is to a pair of
pictures on the facing wall - it's almost like someone could carry them out
of the room and the 'soundscape' would be unaffected...!!

But enough of this, it's always difficult to describe 'sound' without coming
across like a **** - there are those who *know* what I'm referring to and
those who never will.....

Point taken about the sound of applause, that's very on the mark afaiac.

We'll let you off this time, but next time if you talk about the sound of one
armed audience members clapping, beware, although if they
all kick the seats together it might sound interesting.

Patrick Turner.

"Keith G" wrote in
:

They will sing sometime next week

A good time to return the Dynavox me-thinks :-)

--
Cessna172

"Keith G" wrote in
:

But enough of this, it's always difficult to describe 'sound' without
coming across like a **** - there are those who *know* what I'm
referring to and those who never will.....


Your description is well understood and the sound yearned for!

--
Cessna172