Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
You never need to trust an engineer - unless you fly...... :-)

Or cross a bridge... or go into a tall building... or... :-)

Thinking of the 'Millenium Bridge' in London, Andy may have a point
about some of the dodgier engineers........... :-)

But it looks good and glows in the dark...

--
*Caution: I drive like you do.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

In article .com, Andre Jute
wrote:
If you think I've misunderstood something you posted, then it would be more
helpful to explain it than to accuse me of being a "liar" or taking a
"negative and obstructive view". I simply take views based on what I read.

In particular, if I've grasped the wrong indended meaning of your words,
please correct my misunderstanding and tell me what you really mean to imply
with the words "a different class of person, one of culture rather than a
technician" (your words, verbatim), and what exactly is a "jumped-up techie"
(your words, verbatim, again)?

Rod.

Here is the text Stewart snipped from my letter in order to hide his
dishonesty from you. Nothing further needs to be said. --Andre Jute

******
2. When someone does write out the qualifications, you snip dishonestly
to make your preconceived points. For instance, to establish your claim
above that "you [Jute] have difficulty with the concept of somebody
with technical knowledge also being competent to understand art, or
'culture'", from my very first reply to your silly allegation you
snipped my direct statement to the contrary: "Oh, by the way, not only
didn't I say what you accuse me of saying...*** I said exactly the
opposite***... that I know many cultured engineers, in this same
thread, in messages which appeared on the newsgroup hours before you
wrote your cramped, ill-informed, slanted, wrongheaded reply." Then you
repeatedly snip my iterated refutations of your claim while hammering
on about your misinterpretation of my straightforward words. That is
deliberate, iterative dishonesty.

There, I haven't snipped it this time, but you still haven't answered my pefectly
simple question: what did you mean to imply with the words "a different class of
person, one of culture rather than a technician", and what exactly is a
"jumped-up techie"?

I don't doubt that you know many "cultured engineers", but calling me a "jumped
up techie", refusing to explain what you mean by this despite several requests,
and then calling me wrongheaded, biased, deliberatley dishonest, and several
other not very complememtary things when I am simply trying to get you to explain
your own words doesn't answer the question.

Rod.

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
You never need to trust an engineer - unless you fly...... :-)

Or cross a bridge... or go into a tall building... or... :-)

Thinking of the 'Millenium Bridge' in London, Andy may have a point
about some of the dodgier engineers........... :-)

But it looks good and glows in the dark...




It's got 300Bs on it...??!!

:-)

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:59:15 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"John Phillips" wrote


snip pricky stuff


It is difficult to generalize but most of the successful engineers I
know are also highly cultured people. Indeed, lunch today will be with
an engineering manager friend who plays the clarinet and I look forward
to discussing the programming of a forthcoming concert in which he will
perform. I find that good engineers often have a broader appreciation
of culture than those who claim the title "cultured" for themselves.


This phrase 'good engineers' bothers me....

(Implies there engineers who are *not* good - where do the they go then??)

They design wobbly footbridges - and valve amps....... :-)



OK either one of those activities is better than.......

;-)

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Feb 2006 09:59:10 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote


I suspect you are right about the 'Class A' thing and am hoping to
grab
a
Class A SS amp for reasonable money in a couple of says time to check
it
out
for myself and compare it with the Class A valve amps I already have.

I mostly use a Class A Krell amplifier - it sounds just like my
low-bias Class AB Audiolab amplifier.................


There is *no question* that my Class A valve amps sound better than my AB
valve amps...

Sure there's a question - ever try a blind level-matched comparison?


Hundreds of 'em...



Perhaps it's your speakers?

They are a tough load, but highly transparent - very good at sorting
the men from the boys in the amplifier department.


An 'efriend' of mine uses Apogees with only valve amps - see 'Konrad' on the
ukra pages...



The smaller and lower-powered the better. There is a suspicion held by
more ultrafidelista than just the microwatters that higher power in
itself interferes with desirable delicacy in one's sound.

Those are the words of Fruitius Loopius, but I happen to agree. I am a lot
more comfortable with the idea that there isn't too much *constriction*
going on in the amp/speaker arrangement....

There is if you constrict the amp to less than ten watts!

That's because they are idiots who think SET amps sound good, so they
make up these fairy stories about proper amplifiers in order to
ascribe some magical property to their pathetic flea-power crap.

:-)

It's the word 'pathetic' that says most here - FWIW, no-one much can stand
the 'loudness' of my 8 watt 300B SET at half volume here.....

Depends on the speakers, don't it?


Yep.

Serge was measuring mine at (I think) 101 dB peaks at about 2m with the
volume at the 10 o'clock mark (ish), IIRC...???



I can crank my Krell flat out without causing listener fatigue - they
don't realise how loud it is until they try to talk above the music.


Bin there, dun that. Can do it again any time...


Now *that* has always been a good test of a clean system for me. Maybe
it's your speakers? :-)

OK, I know that's fightin' talk, pilgrim!


Not really, I've got no problem with your approach, if that's the way you
want to do it. (At least you don't use slurry pumps...) But mark my words -
high sensitivity speakers are on their way back, leaving the slurry pumps
for AV use...



The
term 'ultrafidelista' is of course just more of your pretentious
twaddle.

Yes, he means 'ultrafidelitians' I suspect.... ;-)

Who ever knows *what* the heal the idiot Jute really means? There's
always about three hundred lines of purple prose, with a dozen words
of content (if you're lucky).


I see his posts as a string of missed opportunities and exercises in
self-alienation....


Doesn't include me, btw - I'm not hung up on 'fidelity', I'm a *consumer*
who is more interested in the sound than the signal...

Quite right, too!


There you go then! ;-)

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On 14 Feb 2006 03:30:55 -0800, "Andy Evans"
wrote:

Keith wrote: My problem (or saving grace) is that I accomodate the
change in sound from different items of audio gear very quickly, which
is why I so elicit the opinions of others when the opportunity presents
- I'm interested in what they think, I don't need then to tell me what
I like.......

I hope Keith won't mind my referring to this as typical of higher
Factor A, showing "openness, flexibility, attention to people, ability
to co-operate, adaptability and an easy-going nature". In other posts
I've referred at some length to low Factor A and its association with
engineers as a group.

And it's a fine illustration of how actual high fidelity sound is low
on the list of priorities, getting all empathetic is much more
important. You see, a high factor A doesn't really bring 'openness and
flexibility', just a desperate need to 'fit in', regardless of the
reality of the situation.


Me fit in???

Me??

Ooh, I don't think so.....

;-)

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote


Yes, I'm very hip to the 'Zen' of flea-power amps moving serious air with
large, sensitive speakers, myself.

The idea of an arc-welder driving a pair of ironing boards is a bit like a
V8 motorcar being driven with the handbrake permanently on, in my
book......

Isn't that very *American* - needing 200 watts to do 55 mph....??? :-)

Ah, but my ironing boards are lifting bodies, and can do Mach 5!


Must have fekkin' long wires on 'em then!


Your approach is more like a Sinclair C5, lots of squawking but no
real progress................... :-)


:-)

Not everybody's cuppertee, that's for sure - Serge didn't like it much, but
he's far too polite to say so!! :-)

Please contribute generously to moral fibre for Jute
 

On 15 Feb 2006 05:03:40 -0800, "Andre Jute" wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On 13 Feb 2006 11:00:11 -0800, "Andre Jute" wrote:

Jem Raid wrote:
Make a gainclone

I did, while I waited months and months for Stewart Pinkerton to design
and build a silicon homage to my KISS 300B which was calling KISASS.
Unfortunately, Pinko's design turned out so stinko that even he refused
to build it.

Firstly, KISASS is not a homage to anything, it's simply a superior SS
alternative to a minimalist SET design - but not a 'good' amplifier by
any reasonable standard, which is why I didn't build it. Secondly, you
never built KISS, so get off your high horse.

Perhaps we should take up a collection on UKRA to buy you spectacles,
Pinkostinko. Photos of versions of my T39 KISS Amp have been sitting on
the net for years. Here's a photo that has been sitting there since
around a fortnight before you thought of your wretched KISASS travesty,
say 15 months:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/t39kiss001.jpg
None so blind as those who don't want to see, eh, Pinko?

Interesting that this doesn't appear anywhere in the KISS part of your
'fiultra' website - but no doubt it will by tomorrow, and you'll claim
that it's been there for years................................

Of course, if you really didn't know of these photographs, it is a dire
commentary on your universal unpopularity that, even as you repeatedly
for more than a year now made a fool of yourself by claiming I didn't
build an amplifier that everyone else knows I have built over and over
and over in various incarnations, no one told you where to find the
photographs. I feel sorry for you, Pinko.

Perhaps it's more telling that you have not until now produced this
magic rabbit from your hat, and that no one has ever supported you in
the intervening period. My 'unpopularity' is as nothing compared with
the contempt in which you are held on the audio newsgroups......

Furthermore, don't you claim to be an engineer, more particulary an
electronics engineer? How is it that an "electronics engineer" cannot
see instantly that another amp repeatedly discussed *with reference to
the photographs* on RAT while you hung around like a bad smell, my T68
"Minus Zero" potato amp, is in fact only the T39 KISS Amp with the 300B
removed and the 417A used as power tubes?

You describe it as 'a development mule for The KISS Amp 300B driver
stage', but there's never been any indication that you actually
completed a KISS - for whatever that would be worth, crippled child
that it is. My KISASS suffers many of the same problems of course, but
is intrinsically more linear - quieter, if you will.

Or do you call yourself an electronics engineer because your mommie
said you could? Postman Pinko, mommie's little "engineer". Lovel-ly!

Actually, I call myself an engineer because several major engineering
corporations have put it in my job title. Should you find yourself on
the wrong end of a Tigerfish torpedo, an M1 Abrams main battle tank, a
Bradley fighting vehicle, or a Harrier jump jet, you'll find some of
my engineering making your life very interesting....................

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:05:12 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
.. .
On 14 Feb 2006 03:30:55 -0800, "Andy Evans"
wrote:

Keith wrote: My problem (or saving grace) is that I accomodate the
change in sound from different items of audio gear very quickly, which
is why I so elicit the opinions of others when the opportunity presents
- I'm interested in what they think, I don't need then to tell me what
I like.......

I hope Keith won't mind my referring to this as typical of higher
Factor A, showing "openness, flexibility, attention to people, ability
to co-operate, adaptability and an easy-going nature". In other posts
I've referred at some length to low Factor A and its association with
engineers as a group.

And it's a fine illustration of how actual high fidelity sound is low
on the list of priorities, getting all empathetic is much more
important. You see, a high factor A doesn't really bring 'openness and
flexibility', just a desperate need to 'fit in', regardless of the
reality of the situation.


Me fit in???

Me??

Ooh, I don't think so.....

;-)

You don't strike me as one of Andy's 'high factor A' guys...... :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Please send your surplus decency to Stewart Pinkerton -- and pray for his ASS
 

Anyone with a shred decency, publicly faced with photographic proof
that for over a year he has falsely been calling someone a liar, would
apologize. Stewart Pinkerton instead launches into further unproven,
unprovable allegations. Stewart Pinkerton is lying scum beyond
redemption.

Pinkerton's despicable "designs" don't get built. He twisted this way
and that way as he tried not to publish a schematic for his wretched
KISASS "design", and -- seeing the way its incompetence was savaged
merely from the description -- who can blame him?

My designs get built. And are used and enjoyed. Here for your enjoyment
is The KISS Amp 300B "Ultrafi" proto again, the one the lying scumbag
Pinkerton claims was never built:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/t39kiss001.jpg

So when will you be building your KISASS, Pinkerton? Go on, sport, we
can do with a good laugh.

Andre Jute
Charisma is the art of inducing apoplexy in losers merely by existing

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On 15 Feb 2006 05:03:40 -0800, "Andre Jute" wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On 13 Feb 2006 11:00:11 -0800, "Andre Jute" wrote:

Jem Raid wrote:
Make a gainclone

I did, while I waited months and months for Stewart Pinkerton to design
and build a silicon homage to my KISS 300B which was calling KISASS.
Unfortunately, Pinko's design turned out so stinko that even he refused
to build it.

Firstly, KISASS is not a homage to anything, it's simply a superior SS
alternative to a minimalist SET design - but not a 'good' amplifier by
any reasonable standard, which is why I didn't build it. Secondly, you
never built KISS, so get off your high horse.

Perhaps we should take up a collection on UKRA to buy you spectacles,
Pinkostinko. Photos of versions of my T39 KISS Amp have been sitting on
the net for years. Here's a photo that has been sitting there since
around a fortnight before you thought of your wretched KISASS travesty,
say 15 months:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/t39kiss001.jpg
None so blind as those who don't want to see, eh, Pinko?

Interesting that this doesn't appear anywhere in the KISS part of your
'fiultra' website - but no doubt it will by tomorrow, and you'll claim
that it's been there for years................................

Of course, if you really didn't know of these photographs, it is a dire
commentary on your universal unpopularity that, even as you repeatedly
for more than a year now made a fool of yourself by claiming I didn't
build an amplifier that everyone else knows I have built over and over
and over in various incarnations, no one told you where to find the
photographs. I feel sorry for you, Pinko.

Perhaps it's more telling that you have not until now produced this
magic rabbit from your hat, and that no one has ever supported you in
the intervening period. My 'unpopularity' is as nothing compared with
the contempt in which you are held on the audio newsgroups......

Furthermore, don't you claim to be an engineer, more particulary an
electronics engineer? How is it that an "electronics engineer" cannot
see instantly that another amp repeatedly discussed *with reference to
the photographs* on RAT while you hung around like a bad smell, my T68
"Minus Zero" potato amp, is in fact only the T39 KISS Amp with the 300B
removed and the 417A used as power tubes?

You describe it as 'a development mule for The KISS Amp 300B driver
stage', but there's never been any indication that you actually
completed a KISS - for whatever that would be worth, crippled child
that it is. My KISASS suffers many of the same problems of course, but
is intrinsically more linear - quieter, if you will.

Or do you call yourself an electronics engineer because your mommie
said you could? Postman Pinko, mommie's little "engineer". Lovel-ly!

Actually, I call myself an engineer because several major engineering
corporations have put it in my job title. Should you find yourself on
the wrong end of a Tigerfish torpedo, an M1 Abrams main battle tank, a
Bradley fighting vehicle, or a Harrier jump jet, you'll find some of
my engineering making your life very interesting....................

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote


Yes, I'm very hip to the 'Zen' of flea-power amps moving serious air with
large, sensitive speakers, myself.

The idea of an arc-welder driving a pair of ironing boards is a bit like
a
V8 motorcar being driven with the handbrake permanently on, in my
book......

Isn't that very *American* - needing 200 watts to do 55 mph....??? :-)

Ah, but my ironing boards are lifting bodies, and can do Mach 5!


Must have fekkin' long wires on 'em then!


Your approach is more like a Sinclair C5, lots of squawking but no
real progress................... :-)


:-)

Not everybody's cuppertee, that's for sure - Serge didn't like it much,
but he's far too polite to say so!! :-)


I've avoided commenting on my visit to Keith's for a few days, firstly so I
could think about what I'd heard, and secondly, so I could get my ears
recalibrated on my own system!

Keith uses a selection of single ended and PP amps into his single drive
unit Jericho horns. First impressions were not good, except that they did go
loud (very) on flea-power. I measured peaks of well over 100dB on a watt or
two of power. As I was faced with unfamiliar 'speakers and amplification, I
tried to separate the two. I thought that some conventional PP ultralinear
with overall feedback amps, would show up mostly what the 'speakers were
doing, as the amps were probably fairly neutral. The bass was quite nice,
extended and smooth, but higher up, I just couldn't get to grips with it. It
all sounded far too squawky, crunchy, as I called it at one point, as if
music was being shouted at me. This is relative of course, to what I am used
to, which to me sounds smooth and natural. Keith said that the sound of his
'speakers using the PP amps what what he was trying to get away from, the
SETs being much more like what he's now looking for. To me the SETs were
even more extreme, I really couldn't enjoy them at all, whereas the PP amps
were at least tolerable. The best of the SETS was the oldest one Keith
built, and, if I remeber correctly, about 3 watts a side.

One other strange factor was that we couldn't get the 'speakers to provide a
solid central image. I suspect that the room they were in was too small, and
consequently the 'speakers were too close to the side walls.

As a reality check, we listened to a pair of large Ruarks in another room
attached to the AV system and driven from a normal Sony AV amp. Here, to
me, sanity was restored. They sounded much more like what I am used to.
Rather liked them, Keith doesn't much. - Fine for the TV.....

Returning home, and relistening to my own system more critically than I have
done for a while, I think I understand what Keith is trying to achieve. I
think that "good" conventional systems all follow the low distortion, low
coloration route, and consequently are beginning to sound the same. Even
with 'speakers, which do still sound different, the differences are much
smaller than they once were, as all manufacturers are trying for accuracy.
Keith obviously wants something that sounds very different, and that's what
he's achieved. I can't say I like it, but it obviously gives him pleasure,
and to his credit, he's done most of the work himself rather than just
buying black boxes.


S.

Please send your surplus decency to Stewart Pinkerton -- and pray for his ASS
 

In article .com,
Andre Jute wrote:
My designs get built. And are used and enjoyed. Here for your enjoyment
is The KISS Amp 300B "Ultrafi" proto again, the one the lying scumbag
Pinkerton claims was never built:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/t39kiss001.jpg

Crikey. Hope the H&S people don't see that.

--
*Real women don't have hot flashes, they have power surges.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

In article , Serge Auckland
wrote:

[big snip as I can't comment on the 'sound' of Keith's system for the
obvious reason - never heard it! :-) }

One other strange factor was that we couldn't get the 'speakers to
provide a solid central image. I suspect that the room they were in was
too small, and consequently the 'speakers were too close to the side
walls.

FWIW my experience is that both the room and the radiation patterns of the
speakers are crucial for getting a really 'solid and central' image from
mono, and a clear image elsewhere. If the speakers aren't well
pair-matched, that might be the limit, but my experience is that you need a
fairly 'symmetric' room in terms of acoustic and layout for an optimum
image.

[snip]

Returning home, and relistening to my own system more critically than I
have done for a while, I think I understand what Keith is trying to
achieve. I think that "good" conventional systems all follow the low
distortion, low coloration route, and consequently are beginning to
sound the same.

I would have put that slightly differently. They tend to produce a similar
sound to one another *when playing the same recording/broadcast*. However I
find that another feature of such systems is they make (to my ears) the
*differences* between different recordings/broadcasts easier to hear. Thus
I take this as a sign you are hearing the recording/broadcast.

Even with 'speakers, which do still sound different, the differences are
much smaller than they once were, as all manufacturers are trying for
accuracy. Keith obviously wants something that sounds very different,
and that's what he's achieved. I can't say I like it, but it obviously
gives him pleasure, and to his credit, he's done most of the work
himself rather than just buying black boxes.

Yes. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Serge Auckland" wrote

Not everybody's cuppertee, that's for sure - Serge didn't like it much,
but he's far too polite to say so!! :-)


I've avoided commenting on my visit to Keith's for a few days, firstly so
I could think about what I'd heard, and secondly, so I could get my ears
recalibrated on my own system!

Keith uses a selection of single ended and PP amps into his single drive
unit Jericho horns. First impressions were not good, except that they did
go loud (very) on flea-power. I measured peaks of well over 100dB on a
watt or two of power. As I was faced with unfamiliar 'speakers and
amplification, I tried to separate the two. I thought that some
conventional PP ultralinear with overall feedback amps, would show up
mostly what the 'speakers were doing, as the amps were probably fairly
neutral. The bass was quite nice, extended and smooth, but higher up, I
just couldn't get to grips with it. It all sounded far too squawky,
crunchy, as I called it at one point, as if music was being shouted at me.
This is relative of course, to what I am used to, which to me sounds
smooth and natural. Keith said that the sound of his 'speakers using the
PP amps what what he was trying to get away from, the SETs being much more
like what he's now looking for. To me the SETs were even more extreme, I
really couldn't enjoy them at all, whereas the PP amps were at least
tolerable. The best of the SETS was the oldest one Keith built, and, if I
remeber correctly, about 3 watts a side.

One other strange factor was that we couldn't get the 'speakers to provide
a solid central image. I suspect that the room they were in was too small,
and consequently the 'speakers were too close to the side walls.

As a reality check, we listened to a pair of large Ruarks in another room
attached to the AV system and driven from a normal Sony AV amp. Here, to
me, sanity was restored. They sounded much more like what I am used to.
Rather liked them, Keith doesn't much. - Fine for the TV.....

Returning home, and relistening to my own system more critically than I
have done for a while, I think I understand what Keith is trying to
achieve. I think that "good" conventional systems all follow the low
distortion, low coloration route, and consequently are beginning to sound
the same. Even with 'speakers, which do still sound different, the
differences are much smaller than they once were, as all manufacturers are
trying for accuracy. Keith obviously wants something that sounds very
different, and that's what he's achieved. I can't say I like it, but it
obviously gives him pleasure, and to his credit, he's done most of the
work himself rather than just buying black boxes.



Hi Serge. That's all pretty fair comment. I would only add in that it was a
fairly trying day for me with Moira at home having to handle a work crisis
on the phone and also query that I thought you actually picked the 'pretty
boy' Chinese 300B amp as the best 'SET' overall...???

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

Your remark about the imaging is interesting - I also think the speakers are
too big for the room and have to say the smaller speakers (Buschhorns and
Needles) both create a pin-sharp central image much more easily.

The example which showed this best was the brief few moments we spent on the
computer setup:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...er%20Setup.JPG

....where the voices come straight from the monitor, despite the somewhat
extreme speaker placement! (If had known you weren't 'anti MP3' I would have
picked out a couple of better 256K examples.)

Interestingly, while I don't think the imaging is anything like best myself,
no less than 3 others who have heard it can find nothing particularly wrong
with it...!!?? (I have asked and if they can't see it, I don't point it
out!! ;-)

Needless to say, I don't find the Fostex drivers too 'crunchy' myself - as
you say, it's relative and I'm used to them. In fact, I find 'normal'
speakers quite 'flubbery' now. Might be worth mentioning the FE206Es are not
the *design* drivers for the Jericho boxes - I have fitted them temporarily
to get a general idea. I would like to try Lowthers in them, but I suspect
they would be even further away from your ideal!!

Reminds me I promised you a link:

http://www.plasmatweeter.de/jericho.htm

Btw, since your visit I have fitted the V15/II to the Aiwa deck and can now
tell you there are *two* music stands falling over in the Lark Ascending
recording!!

Your final comment was also interesting - I hafta say, another little
*fruissance* for me is when I play an LP on this kit (and the music is
*particularly* fine - we never got near it on the day) and I realise I have
built/constructed 75% of the equipment in use at that time!! (Better
demonstration examples here might have been Laurie Anderson's 'Mr
Heartbreak' or 'Strange Angels'...??)

Anyway, an enjoyable (if difficult) day which was very interesting to me -
first time I have had a 'non positive' response to the triode/horn thing
(which is still in the early days with cheapo amps and half-arsed speakers
yet) and my door is still open (by appointment) to anyone else who is
curious!!

(The distinct possibility of a full-on 'Keith's kit is utter ****e' being
reported here does not deter me!! :-))

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:05:12 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
. ..
On 14 Feb 2006 03:30:55 -0800, "Andy Evans"
wrote:

Keith wrote: My problem (or saving grace) is that I accomodate the
change in sound from different items of audio gear very quickly, which
is why I so elicit the opinions of others when the opportunity presents
- I'm interested in what they think, I don't need then to tell me what
I like.......

I hope Keith won't mind my referring to this as typical of higher
Factor A, showing "openness, flexibility, attention to people, ability
to co-operate, adaptability and an easy-going nature". In other posts
I've referred at some length to low Factor A and its association with
engineers as a group.

And it's a fine illustration of how actual high fidelity sound is low
on the list of priorities, getting all empathetic is much more
important. You see, a high factor A doesn't really bring 'openness and
flexibility', just a desperate need to 'fit in', regardless of the
reality of the situation.


Me fit in???

Me??

Ooh, I don't think so.....

;-)

You don't strike me as one of Andy's 'high factor A' guys...... :-)



No, more 'Max Factor', me.....

(Not too much though - just a little blusher and eye-liner and lip gloss on
special occasions... :-)

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

Serge Auckland wrote:

I've avoided commenting on my visit to Keith's for a few days, firstly so I
could think about what I'd heard, and secondly, so I could get my ears
recalibrated on my own system!

...The bass was quite nice,
extended and smooth, but higher up, I just couldn't get to grips with it. It
all sounded far too squawky, crunchy, as I called it at one point, as if
music was being shouted at me. This is relative of course, to what I am used
to, which to me sounds smooth and natural.

I wonder what the frequency response is like. Some articles about the
Fostex drivers
in Voigt pipes mentioned a hump in the treble and suggested a parallel coil
and capacitor (and possibly a resistor) to flatten the response.

--
Eiron

There's something scary about stupidity made coherent - Tom Stoppard.

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Serge Auckland" wrote

Not everybody's cuppertee, that's for sure - Serge didn't like it much,
but he's far too polite to say so!! :-)


I've avoided commenting on my visit to Keith's for a few days, firstly so
I could think about what I'd heard, and secondly, so I could get my ears
recalibrated on my own system!

Keith uses a selection of single ended and PP amps into his single drive
unit Jericho horns. First impressions were not good, except that they did
go loud (very) on flea-power. I measured peaks of well over 100dB on a
watt or two of power. As I was faced with unfamiliar 'speakers and
amplification, I tried to separate the two. I thought that some
conventional PP ultralinear with overall feedback amps, would show up
mostly what the 'speakers were doing, as the amps were probably fairly
neutral. The bass was quite nice, extended and smooth, but higher up, I
just couldn't get to grips with it. It all sounded far too squawky,
crunchy, as I called it at one point, as if music was being shouted at
me. This is relative of course, to what I am used to, which to me sounds
smooth and natural. Keith said that the sound of his 'speakers using the
PP amps what what he was trying to get away from, the SETs being much
more like what he's now looking for. To me the SETs were even more
extreme, I really couldn't enjoy them at all, whereas the PP amps were at
least tolerable. The best of the SETS was the oldest one Keith built,
and, if I remeber correctly, about 3 watts a side.

One other strange factor was that we couldn't get the 'speakers to
provide a solid central image. I suspect that the room they were in was
too small, and consequently the 'speakers were too close to the side
walls.

As a reality check, we listened to a pair of large Ruarks in another room
attached to the AV system and driven from a normal Sony AV amp. Here, to
me, sanity was restored. They sounded much more like what I am used to.
Rather liked them, Keith doesn't much. - Fine for the TV.....

Returning home, and relistening to my own system more critically than I
have done for a while, I think I understand what Keith is trying to
achieve. I think that "good" conventional systems all follow the low
distortion, low coloration route, and consequently are beginning to sound
the same. Even with 'speakers, which do still sound different, the
differences are much smaller than they once were, as all manufacturers
are trying for accuracy. Keith obviously wants something that sounds very
different, and that's what he's achieved. I can't say I like it, but it
obviously gives him pleasure, and to his credit, he's done most of the
work himself rather than just buying black boxes.



Hi Serge. That's all pretty fair comment. I would only add in that it was
a fairly trying day for me with Moira at home having to handle a work
crisis on the phone and also query that I thought you actually picked the
'pretty boy' Chinese 300B amp as the best 'SET' overall...???

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/jaau...aaudio300b.htm

Now you mention it, you may be right. Heard too many SETs that day.


Your remark about the imaging is interesting - I also think the speakers
are too big for the room and have to say the smaller speakers (Buschhorns
and Needles) both create a pin-sharp central image much more easily.

You may want to try them in the main room one day when Moira's out.

The example which showed this best was the brief few moments we spent on
the computer setup:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show...er%20Setup.JPG

...where the voices come straight from the monitor, despite the somewhat
extreme speaker placement! (If had known you weren't 'anti MP3' I would
have picked out a couple of better 256K examples.)

Interestingly, while I don't think the imaging is anything like best
myself, no less than 3 others who have heard it can find nothing
particularly wrong with it...!!?? (I have asked and if they can't see it,
I don't point it out!! ;-)

Depends what you're used to, some people just don't care about localisation,
they have other priorities, others are perfectly happy with a diffuse image,
they actually prefer it.

Needless to say, I don't find the Fostex drivers too 'crunchy' myself - as
you say, it's relative and I'm used to them. In fact, I find 'normal'
speakers quite 'flubbery' now. Might be worth mentioning the FE206Es are
not the *design* drivers for the Jericho boxes - I have fitted them
temporarily to get a general idea. I would like to try Lowthers in them,
but I suspect they would be even further away from your ideal!!

Reminds me I promised you a link:

http://www.plasmatweeter.de/jericho.htm

Interesting link. Have you put in the equaliser and impedance matching
network recommended? It would be worth doing as it will smooth out the
frequency response for all amplifiers, especially SETs with their fairly
high output impedance.


Btw, since your visit I have fitted the V15/II to the Aiwa deck and can
now tell you there are *two* music stands falling over in the Lark
Ascending recording!!

Your final comment was also interesting - I hafta say, another little
*fruissance* for me is when I play an LP on this kit (and the music is
*particularly* fine - we never got near it on the day) and I realise I
have built/constructed 75% of the equipment in use at that time!! (Better
demonstration examples here might have been Laurie Anderson's 'Mr
Heartbreak' or 'Strange Angels'...??)

Anyway, an enjoyable (if difficult) day which was very interesting to me -
first time I have had a 'non positive' response to the triode/horn thing
(which is still in the early days with cheapo amps and half-arsed speakers
yet) and my door is still open (by appointment) to anyone else who is
curious!!

Thanks again for the day, and hope Moira doesn't feel too bad about it.

S.

Please send your surplus decency to Stewart Pinkerton -- and pray for his ASS
 

On 16 Feb 2006 03:08:50 -0800, "Andre Jute" wrote:

Anyone with a shred decency, publicly faced with photographic proof
that for over a year he has falsely been calling someone a liar, would
apologize. Stewart Pinkerton instead launches into further unproven,
unprovable allegations. Stewart Pinkerton is lying scum beyond
redemption.

No such proof has been offered, just another of your smoke and mirror
deceptions.

Pinkerton's despicable "designs" don't get built.

Sure they do - just not KISASS.

He twisted this way
and that way as he tried not to publish a schematic for his wretched
KISASS "design", and -- seeing the way its incompetence was savaged
merely from the description -- who can blame him?

More lies from Jute - but what else can one expect?

My designs get built. And are used and enjoyed. Here for your enjoyment
is The KISS Amp 300B "Ultrafi" proto again, the one the lying scumbag
Pinkerton claims was never built:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/t39kiss001.jpg

So when will you be building your KISASS, Pinkerton? Go on, sport, we
can do with a good laugh.

I won't be. Why would I? It's nearly as crippled as KISS.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Serge Auckland" wrote


Your remark about the imaging is interesting - I also think the speakers
are too big for the room and have to say the smaller speakers (Buschhorns
and Needles) both create a pin-sharp central image much more easily.

You may want to try them in the main room one day when Moira's out.


We might have done that if we had had the place to ourselves.



Depends what you're used to, some people just don't care about
localisation, they have other priorities, others are perfectly happy with
a diffuse image, they actually prefer it.


Sure, but it won't do me ultimately - *image* and clarity are my priorities.
You (one) can adapt/adapt to tone one way or another, but you can't fake
detail you can't hear and you can't settle for less 'soundstage' and imaging
than you already know can be had from any given recording!!


Reminds me I promised you a link:

http://www.plasmatweeter.de/jericho.htm

Interesting link. Have you put in the equaliser and impedance matching
network recommended? It would be worth doing as it will smooth out the
frequency response for all amplifiers, especially SETs with their fairly
high output impedance.


Yes, I thinks so too - I read on the Net somewhere the 206s are not supposed
to need it but, in view of your findings and comments, I think it would be
well worthwhile and must be tried. In any case, I suspect I will fit the
'correct' FE208 Sigmas at some stage....

(Don't suppose you fancy knocking me up a Maplins's parts list do you? It
ain't laziness - my failing is I don't know the components well enough to be
sure of getting the right thing!! :-)



Thanks again for the day, and hope Moira doesn't feel too bad about it.


No, Moira was fine - she was hoping for a bit of a break/quiet day which is
why I said to her not to even bother to go into Cambridge, but it didn't
happen!! I hope it didn't spoil things to much for you. I enjoyed it and I
suspect I will get more from the day that you will - such get-togethers are
*never* a waste of time, I find!

Perhaps it has saved you squandering money on a Chinky SET (or two)....!!

:-)

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Serge Auckland wrote:

I've avoided commenting on my visit to Keith's for a few days, firstly so
I could think about what I'd heard, and secondly, so I could get my ears
recalibrated on my own system!

...The bass was quite nice, extended and smooth, but higher up, I just
couldn't get to grips with it. It all sounded far too squawky, crunchy,
as I called it at one point, as if music was being shouted at me. This is
relative of course, to what I am used to, which to me sounds smooth and
natural.

I wonder what the frequency response is like. Some articles about the
Fostex drivers
in Voigt pipes mentioned a hump in the treble and suggested a parallel
coil
and capacitor (and possibly a resistor) to flatten the response.



There is a interesting little correction network here (scroll down):

http://www.plasmatweeter.de/jericho.htm

...which I hadn't bothered with (yet) as I saw somewhere the FE206Es don't
need it....???

Serge's observations and comments have made me think they probably do.....

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

Hi,

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message

You don't strike me as one of Andy's 'high factor A' guys...... :-)

No, more 'Max Factor', me.....

I had you down as more "Warp Factor" than "Max Factor". Just goes
to show...

Regards,

Glenn.

Do amplifiers sound different?uad
 

"Glenn Booth" wrote in message
...
Hi,

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message

You don't strike me as one of Andy's 'high factor A' guys...... :-)

No, more 'Max Factor', me.....

I had you down as more "Warp Factor" than "Max Factor". Just goes
to show...


:-P