Best way to get Radio 3?
 

In article .com,
wrote:
My options for getting Radio 3:
1. I could have a VHF aerial placed on the roof of my house, and
probably upgrade my tuner;
2. The digi-box that supplies cable TV also gives radio: connecting it
to my amplifier gives music that is at least not unpleasant. At the
moment the signal has a long and indirect route between digi-box and
amplifier, but this could be changed;
3. I could buy a new DAB tuner.

I've got FM, DAB and Freeview. Freeview is the best but may still require
a decent outside aerial. FM almost certainly will. DAB isn't too bad on R3
(but may well disappoint on other stations) but works well round here on
an internal aerial.

I'm also not sure how well cheaper Freeview boxes perform on their
analogue outputs.

FM can still be very good but generally requires a decent signal for the
best results, and not everyone can get this.

--
*Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Best way to get Radio 3?
 

On 2006-03-02, tony sayer wrote:
In ...
I read an article in one of the audio mags last week that argued the
case that actually, DVB-T (i.e. "Freeview") provides the cleanest,
highest-resolution radio around right now - even compared with FM.

Don't believe all the bollox thats writ by supposed Audio Jurnos:(

If it's the article I think it is (HiFi News, March issue), the author's
name might have been something like Jim Lesurf ...

If it was, the dynamic range comparisons graphs for real programme
material via the different routes were interesting and confirmed some
of my own rather cruder comparisons.

--
John Phillips

Best way to get Radio 3?
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

Snipped


No. The problem with FM is that it is more or less heavily processed -
dynamics are squashed - depending on the time of day. It is anything
but a clean feed.

For the best quality, satellite and Freeview are the way to go. They
both get a clean,non-compressed feed. DAB is not desperately bad on R3
- certainly better than FM.

d

Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

DAB, DTT and D-SAT feeds are or very soon will be processed as well as FM.
Radio 3 FM uses the Orban 8400, whilst the digital feeds either are or very
soon will be using the Orban 6200 processor. The reason I say "are or very
soon will be" is because of the works currently going on in the new London
Control Room at BH. I don't know exactly when the new processing will come
into service, but if not already, then soon.

Regarding whether digital delivery of Radio 3 is better/worse than FM is
personal matter. Are the artifacts of the FM system better or worse than the
artifacts of the MPEG2 delivery system at the sort of bit rates being used
for Radio 3 (192kBs at best)? In my own system, I use a Meridian 204 FM
tuner and a Sony VTX-D800U DVB receiver, and I prefer the FM sound. The FM
tuner has slightly more hiss than the DVB receiver, which essentially has
none, but the sound is more pleasant. I drive the tuner from a 6-element
antenna pointed a Tacolneston. At my age, the relative merits of a 15kHz as
compared with a 20kHz bandwidth are academic.

S.

Best way to get Radio 3?
 

In article , tony sayer

wrote:
In
I read an article in one of the audio mags last week that argued the
case that actually, DVB-T (i.e. "Freeview") provides the cleanest,
highest-resolution radio around right now - even compared with FM.

Don't believe all the bollox thats writ by supposed Audio Jurnos:(

ahem That rather depends on the "audio jurnos"... :-)

Also on the measured evidence upon which they may base their comments...
;-

Of course, you may find it's easier to find a 'decent [FM] tuner' than
a decent DVB-T box, and especially one with a digital output.

Freeview is "clean" there is no doubt about that, but it does have that
metallic artificial digital sound to it that I find very irritating.

Not in my experience. What it does have is a tendency to lack the audible
effects of level compression, background noise, and high-level nonlinear
distortion of FM. Although for obvious reasons, the sound quality will vary
a great deal from one broadcast channel/item to another.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Best way to get Radio 3?
 

In article , tony sayer

wrote:
In article , Don Pearce
writes


They both get a clean,non-compressed feed. DAB is not desperately bad
on R3 - certainly better than FM.

Beg to differ. Don't you notice the artefacts?.

On R3 in general, no I don't. What seems much more noticable to me is the
lack of level compression, noise, and high-level nonlinearity. Although the
results vary, so can only generalise about this. And I'd agree that the
sound on non-R3 stations can be pretty dire.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Best way to get Radio 3?
 

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 14:10:31 +0000, tony sayer wrote:




I guess it depends on what bothers you. I find even the tiniest bit of
dynamic compression immensely irritating - much more so than the little
glitches from satellite bitrates, which frankly I have to listen for.

I have also come to a similar conclusion. When I first started listening to
DTTV (and then DAB) I found the differences from FM quite noticable, and
initially disliked the results. However with continued listening I decided
that quite a lot of this was due to my being 'habituated' to the level
compression, noise, and high-level nonlinearity of FM.

Now, the sound on DAB R3 does seem 'confused' at times, but also a lot of
the time I now find it much clearer than on FM. Given a free choice and
repeated comparisons over many months I now find I tend to prefer DTTV or
DAB a lot of the time. Mainly I think as a result of the (relative) lack of
level compression, noise, and high-level nonlinearity. Note, though, that
this is for R3, not necessarily for other stations.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Best way to get Radio 3?
 

In article , John Phillips
wrote:
On 2006-03-02, tony sayer wrote:
In ...
I read an article in one of the audio mags last week that argued the
case that actually, DVB-T (i.e. "Freeview") provides the cleanest,
highest-resolution radio around right now - even compared with FM.

Don't believe all the bollox thats writ by supposed Audio Jurnos:(

If it's the article I think it is (HiFi News, March issue), the author's
name might have been something like Jim Lesurf ...

Who he? 8-]

If it was, the dynamic range comparisons graphs for real programme
material via the different routes were interesting and confirmed some of
my own rather cruder comparisons.

FWIW I did analyses of various examples of concerts and the plots in the
article are fairly representitive. The analysis/article was directed
specifically at 'proms' on BBC4TV and R3 as this was a very convenient set
of examples for comparison analysis.

Note that the article doesn't really deal with DAB. Just with DTTV and FM.

For obvious reasons, the results may well have been quite different for
other stations or items, or if DAB had been included.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Best way to get Radio 3?
 

In article , Serge Auckland
wrote:

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

Snipped


No. The problem with FM is that it is more or less heavily processed -
dynamics are squashed - depending on the time of day. It is anything
but a clean feed.

For the best quality, satellite and Freeview are the way to go. They
both get a clean,non-compressed feed. DAB is not desperately bad on R3
- certainly better than FM.

d

Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com

DAB, DTT and D-SAT feeds are or very soon will be processed as well as
FM. Radio 3 FM uses the Orban 8400, whilst the digital feeds either are
or very soon will be using the Orban 6200 processor. The reason I say
"are or very soon will be" is because of the works currently going on
in the new London Control Room at BH. I don't know exactly when the new
processing will come into service, but if not already, then soon.

Can you say who at the BBC has said that the level compression *will* be
applied to R3 on DTTV and DAB, and what reasons were given? Have they also
said this will ignore DRC on DAB?

Regarding whether digital delivery of Radio 3 is better/worse than FM is
personal matter. Are the artifacts of the FM system better or worse
than the artifacts of the MPEG2 delivery system at the sort of bit
rates being used for Radio 3 (192kBs at best)? In my own system, I use
a Meridian 204 FM tuner and a Sony VTX-D800U DVB receiver, and I
prefer the FM sound.

So did I on initial comparisons between FM and DTTV. However after some
weeks I started to feel that the reason was that:

1) I was simply 'acclimatised' to the sound on FM

2) started to suspect that the 'warmth' on FM was due to a combination of
peak-compression (so enhancing the sustain part of notes) and the high
levels of nonlinearity for HF peaks from the RX.

Hence I found that my preference started to change, and now is quite
different to my initial reactions to DTTV.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Best way to get Radio 3?
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Serge Auckland
wrote:


All methods of delivery are, or will be very shortly, processed during
the day.

Can you say what your source for the above is? Perhaps give a reference to
it? So far, my experience is that R3 DAB/DTTV tends not to be level
compressed during the day in the same way as R3 FM.

Also, since DAB includes the ability to provide user-optional DRC, do you
have reason to think the BBC will *not* make any level-compression a 'user
option' if they apply it to R3 FM?

Slainte,

Jim

Jim,

Before I retired, I was the guy selling Orban in the UK. That's where the
information comes from, my dealings with the Corporation on supplying
processing for the new London Control Room. It is my understanding that all
R3 outlets will be processed eventually. You may well be right that
currently DAB/DTTV are not processed. They weren't, but may well be soon
when the new kit is operational. As to DRC, I have never heard any mention
of DRC within the BBC, so can't say if they will ever use it.

Processing is a hot subject within all radio broadcasters, BBC and
commercial. They guard their processor settings jealously, and are most
reluctant ever to talk about it publicly.

S.

Best way to get Radio 3?
 

I
I guess it depends on what bothers you. I find even the tiniest bit of
dynamic compression immensely irritating - much more so than the
little glitches from satellite bitrates, which frankly I have to
listen for.

Its not glitches its that horrible metallic sound get s tiring to listen
to after a while..

They
both get a clean,non-compressed feed. DAB is not desperately bad on R3
- certainly better than FM.

Beg to differ. Don't you notice the artefacts?. Not that I've anything
at all against digital transmission but if they do use an outdated codec
and chuck away information then what do you expect?.

Ever heard German or French radio via sat?...


I would dearly love UK DAB to be simply turned off, and relaunched
with real, up-to-date codecs, together with the assumption that all
future radios will be soft, so updates over the air are the norm.

I think.. That we can agree on that!.....

--
Tony Sayer