"Ian Iveson" wrote in message
. uk...
Stewart Pinkerton

But it's not all about the money - many DIYers are looking to beat
commercial stuff in terms of ultimate performance/specification and are
well
aware they would definitely *not* be beating commercial producers on a
cost
basis if their own labour was priced into the equation....!!??

Still true in absolute terms. DIY satisfaction has a lot of clout, but
in the real world, home-built full-range speakers can in no way
compete with good commercial equivalents. All else is wishful
thinking.

Now you've gone too far. DIYers may not be able to produce an equivalent
speaker as cheaply as a commercial one, but every commercial speaker can
be improved. DIY for economy is mostly dead everywhere, not just in
electronics. Unless you include kits. DIY now is about quality and style.


And difference (choice) - the only commercial fullrange speakers I can think
of offhand are the Zu Druids for about 2.5K!! (After that it's Jim Carfrae's
'homebrew horns' at up to about 18K a pair!! ;-)

"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote


But it's not all about the money - many DIYers are looking to beat
commercial stuff in terms of ultimate performance/specification and are
well
aware they would definitely *not* be beating commercial producers on a
cost
basis if their own labour was priced into the equation....!!??

Still true in absolute terms. DIY satisfaction has a lot of clout, but
in the real world, home-built full-range speakers can in no way
compete with good commercial equivalents. All else is wishful
thinking.


No, give at least some of us credit for having the honesty to pack an idea
in if we thought we were ****ing in the breeze!

When my mate Pat (the ****) came round to hear my Pinkies for the first time
his *immediate* reaction was 'Woah! You'd have to spend a lot of money to
that kind of sound!"

As I said to Don just now - I cut a pair of (£500) JM-Labs in the other day
to *double check*, my Pinkies (sorry!! ;-) beat the crap out of them with
the possible exception of a crisper bass, but the comparative overall
'flatness' of the sound was unbearable! (That was on a sandamp - put them on
valves and the 'firewood horns' really shine!! ;-)

Incidentally, the name 'fullrange' is one of convenience - nobody I know
considers them to have the same bass extension as some of the bigger/better
mutliway speakers. Treble is another story - I've yet to encounter 'normal'
speakers with the extent and sweetness of treble that you get with Fostex
drivers, at least!!

On Mon, 22 May 2006 14:28:25 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 May 2006 11:58:24 GMT, "Ian Iveson"
wrote:

Now you've gone too far. DIYers may not be able to produce an equivalent
speaker
as cheaply as a commercial one, but every commercial speaker can be
improved.
DIY for economy is mostly dead everywhere, not just in electronics. Unless
you
include kits. DIY now is about quality and style.

No, commercial speakers *have* been improved. That is the point They
are the product of careful initial design, then redesign and tweaking
both in anechoic chambers and real listening rooms. That is a luxury
most don't have for diy. They build one set, then live with the
result. The chances of a happy result of being better than the
commercial equivalent are vanishingly close to zero.


Absolutely not the case.

DIY speaker builders almost invariably build more than one pair of
speakers - I know diddley doo about it all, but even I'm on my fifth pair!
(Two of which are/have been for other people!) Also, I believe many DIYers
will spend quite a bit of time tweaking a a pair of speakers after they have
been built, before they consider them *finished*.

Where DIY speaker builders differ from a commercial enterprise is that they
tend to tweak (different drivers and other components in the case of
speakers with crossovers) in the actual room they are going to use the
speakers in and using kit they already own. My own speakers already sound
better than a number of commercial pairs I have here, which have never
suited the room! I double-checked this only a day or two ago - my Pinkies
are *consummately* better in my room than a pair of very respectable JM-Labs
floorstanders (and a pair of even more respectable Ruarks) I have here.

Until you hit the 'sky's the limit' for price (Wilson &c.?) all speakers are
built to a price and it's common knowledge that 70/80 % of the costs of a
pair of speakers (before marketting and advertising &c. are added in) go
into the cabinet. A DIYer has the option to spend the money on the *sound
quality* - where it counts.

All this proclaiming that DIY can't beat commercial is just so much dogma -
any DIYer with sufficient skill/talent/expertise/resources and *funds* can
match the commercial sector in just about any field if he chooses to. Most
commercial enterprises had small, domestic beginnings from what I can see of
it, anyway!!



But your new builds haven't been evolutions, have they. You haven't
assessed a speaker, done some sums and thought "I think the horn may
work better if it is three inches longer", then built and evaluated.
What you have built is several different designs. That isn't
development.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
[big snip]


That's all very interesting but a little way wide of the point - forget
expensive, 'laser cut' options, my curiosity here is that in an amp
costing only 60 quid (and which includes 6 inputs, headphone socket,
phono stage as well as all the necessary ADC/DAC circuitry, power
supply &c.) there is a very useful *digital* (ie cheap) way of
controlling volume/treble/bass/balance/muting/'loudness' with some of
the major functions (not all) available on the (included) remote
control.

Yes, I'd agree. I was just pointing out that some people have an aversion
to anything 'digital', and that a 'digital attenuator' may have flaws, so
should assessed with due care. But the silicon for one is cheap, and
should
be able to give good results if well done.


*Stop press*

I have detected a little artifact in the sound from the Argos stuff this
morning - not audible in normal use (even right up to the speaker), but when
playing back *recordings* and trying to record them with a little mic
there's a little 'whumpa whumpa whumpa' going on at about once every second
(or so) at quite a low level....???

It's here at about 600K:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/wumpa.mp3


Although the mic is a bit suspect I think I have also heard it when playing
back recordings from my PVR but I couldn't replicate it just now....???

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 May 2006 14:28:25 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:


"Don Pearce" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 22 May 2006 11:58:24 GMT, "Ian Iveson"
wrote:

Now you've gone too far. DIYers may not be able to produce an equivalent
speaker
as cheaply as a commercial one, but every commercial speaker can be
improved.
DIY for economy is mostly dead everywhere, not just in electronics.
Unless
you
include kits. DIY now is about quality and style.

No, commercial speakers *have* been improved. That is the point They
are the product of careful initial design, then redesign and tweaking
both in anechoic chambers and real listening rooms. That is a luxury
most don't have for diy. They build one set, then live with the
result. The chances of a happy result of being better than the
commercial equivalent are vanishingly close to zero.


Absolutely not the case.

DIY speaker builders almost invariably build more than one pair of
speakers - I know diddley doo about it all, but even I'm on my fifth pair!
(Two of which are/have been for other people!) Also, I believe many DIYers
will spend quite a bit of time tweaking a a pair of speakers after they
have
been built, before they consider them *finished*.

Where DIY speaker builders differ from a commercial enterprise is that
they
tend to tweak (different drivers and other components in the case of
speakers with crossovers) in the actual room they are going to use the
speakers in and using kit they already own. My own speakers already sound
better than a number of commercial pairs I have here, which have never
suited the room! I double-checked this only a day or two ago - my Pinkies
are *consummately* better in my room than a pair of very respectable
JM-Labs
floorstanders (and a pair of even more respectable Ruarks) I have here.

Until you hit the 'sky's the limit' for price (Wilson &c.?) all speakers
are
built to a price and it's common knowledge that 70/80 % of the costs of a
pair of speakers (before marketting and advertising &c. are added in) go
into the cabinet. A DIYer has the option to spend the money on the *sound
quality* - where it counts.

All this proclaiming that DIY can't beat commercial is just so much
dogma -
any DIYer with sufficient skill/talent/expertise/resources and *funds* can
match the commercial sector in just about any field if he chooses to. Most
commercial enterprises had small, domestic beginnings from what I can see
of
it, anyway!!



But your new builds haven't been evolutions, have they. You haven't
assessed a speaker, done some sums and thought "I think the horn may
work better if it is three inches longer", then built and evaluated.
What you have built is several different designs. That isn't
development.


Hmm, I'm not talking about *designing & developing* - I'm really only
talking about *building*.

Most DIYers build an established and proven design - some will tweak, some
won't. Some will go on to design completely new stuff themselves - that's
how it goes and is one of the reasons DIYing is a Good Thing.

Myself, I have constructed the various 'established design' cabinets (quite
accurately) and have experimented with different drivers (Fostex and
Visaton) and played about with stuffing and bits of carpet (as you do), but
I don't have the knowledge (or will or time or money) to get into
*designing* per se!! Having said that, I have *extended* the design on the
last pair (on a 'suck it and see' basis) and appear to be getting away with
it!! :-)

It's too easy to dismiss DIY activity as folly in the face of modern
commercial offerings and I'd be the first to admit that there's some good
stuff at very reasonable prices out there, but consider this analogy - Mr
Kipling makes exceedingly good cakes (says so on the packet) but, if you
are/were lucky, yer auld mum could beat him hands down every time!! (When my
mum signed off steak and kidney pudding vanished *forever* from the face of
the planet, AFAIAC!!)

It's a mistake to think most DIYers are dozy chancers like me - there's a
great deal deal of real experience and expertise out there and which seems
to be freely shared and passed around. Even my numpty efforts attract a post
or three every week - along the lines of this one (received yesterday):


"Hi keith, a really nice friendly website.

Congratulations. I've ordered a pair of tangband 317s with a view to
making some needles myself. However I'm completely new to speaker
building so your descriptions are very welcome. You imply that some
places will cut to size ? Could you literally come away with a kit of
parts ? Failing that it looks like the minimum tools I'd need would be
a circular saw & router."


(OK, I've put him right on the circular saw and router....!! ;-)

Telling people like this 'don't bother, it ain't worth it' does nothing to
further the cause or the quest for Audio Nirvana. *Even if* someone's
speakers were actually crap in reality but they liked and *preferred* them,
then their efforts would have been worthwhile. If my own efforts were/had
been crap, trust me, the 'listeners' I've had round here would have damn
soon told me so!! (You know how it is!! ;-)

On Mon, 22 May 2006 15:11:47 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

*Stop press*

I have detected a little artifact in the sound from the Argos stuff this
morning - not audible in normal use (even right up to the speaker), but when
playing back *recordings* and trying to record them with a little mic
there's a little 'whumpa whumpa whumpa' going on at about once every second
(or so) at quite a low level....???

It's here at about 600K:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/wumpa.mp3

Exactly once per second by the look of it. Does it have a clock, or
could this correspond to the update rate of the display?

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

On Mon, 22 May 2006 15:42:53 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

But your new builds haven't been evolutions, have they. You haven't
assessed a speaker, done some sums and thought "I think the horn may
work better if it is three inches longer", then built and evaluated.
What you have built is several different designs. That isn't
development.


Hmm, I'm not talking about *designing & developing* - I'm really only
talking about *building*.

Most DIYers build an established and proven design - some will tweak, some
won't. Some will go on to design completely new stuff themselves - that's
how it goes and is one of the reasons DIYing is a Good Thing.

Myself, I have constructed the various 'established design' cabinets (quite
accurately) and have experimented with different drivers (Fostex and
Visaton) and played about with stuffing and bits of carpet (as you do), but
I don't have the knowledge (or will or time or money) to get into
*designing* per se!! Having said that, I have *extended* the design on the
last pair (on a 'suck it and see' basis) and appear to be getting away with
it!! :-)

It's too easy to dismiss DIY activity as folly in the face of modern
commercial offerings and I'd be the first to admit that there's some good
stuff at very reasonable prices out there, but consider this analogy - Mr
Kipling makes exceedingly good cakes (says so on the packet) but, if you
are/were lucky, yer auld mum could beat him hands down every time!! (When my
mum signed off steak and kidney pudding vanished *forever* from the face of
the planet, AFAIAC!!)

It's a mistake to think most DIYers are dozy chancers like me - there's a
great deal deal of real experience and expertise out there and which seems
to be freely shared and passed around. Even my numpty efforts attract a post
or three every week - along the lines of this one (received yesterday):


"Hi keith, a really nice friendly website.

Congratulations. I've ordered a pair of tangband 317s with a view to
making some needles myself. However I'm completely new to speaker
building so your descriptions are very welcome. You imply that some
places will cut to size ? Could you literally come away with a kit of
parts ? Failing that it looks like the minimum tools I'd need would be
a circular saw & router."


(OK, I've put him right on the circular saw and router....!! ;-)

Telling people like this 'don't bother, it ain't worth it' does nothing to
further the cause or the quest for Audio Nirvana. *Even if* someone's
speakers were actually crap in reality but they liked and *preferred* them,
then their efforts would have been worthwhile. If my own efforts were/had
been crap, trust me, the 'listeners' I've had round here would have damn
soon told me so!! (You know how it is!! ;-)


All too well. For myself, I have taken what is probably the commonest
compromise path these days. I have professionally built speakers
(Sonus Faber Amators), and a home-built sub. There is no alternative
to home building for this sub because it is built into a concrete
under-stairs cupboard space. As such it has a huge internal volume and
works in effectively infinite baffle mode. This makes it very
non-boomy - musical in fact. It also goes very, very low in frequency.
It does need quite a few of those "expensive" watts, though ;-)

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 May 2006 15:11:47 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

*Stop press*

I have detected a little artifact in the sound from the Argos stuff this
morning - not audible in normal use (even right up to the speaker), but
when
playing back *recordings* and trying to record them with a little mic
there's a little 'whumpa whumpa whumpa' going on at about once every
second
(or so) at quite a low level....???

It's here at about 600K:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/wumpa.mp3

Exactly once per second by the look of it. Does it have a clock, or
could this correspond to the update rate of the display?


???

No idea! But it doesn't have a clock. I'm sure I've heard this noise on some
PVR playback and then when I tried to record 'open mic', otherwise I hadn't
noticed it!!

Here's another one - I have a Hauppage WinTV card in this machine and have
just tried to install the crappy software (WinTV2000!!??) that came with it.
I might have aerial issues (whenever not?) but is there any better software
available to use with this card before I start crawling about in the loft? I
was using ShowShifter on the old machine but seems to have gone tits up!!

On Mon, 22 May 2006 16:40:36 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote:

???

No idea! But it doesn't have a clock. I'm sure I've heard this noise on some
PVR playback and then when I tried to record 'open mic', otherwise I hadn't
noticed it!!


The open mic thing is bothering me a bit. The frequency does seem very
low to be picked up by a mic. Are you sure this isn't being generated
in the mic circuit side of things rather than the Argos box? Or with
the wick wound up, can you see the speaker cones jumping in time with
the sound?

Here's another one - I have a Hauppage WinTV card in this machine and have
just tried to install the crappy software (WinTV2000!!??) that came with it.
I might have aerial issues (whenever not?) but is there any better software
available to use with this card before I start crawling about in the loft? I
was using ShowShifter on the old machine but seems to have gone tits up!!




I bought one of those Hauppauge cards a while back - totally screwed
two PCs before I finally threw it where it belonged. It did work once
for about ten minutes, but never kept its channel list when I turned
off.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote


Telling people like this 'don't bother, it ain't worth it' does nothing to
further the cause or the quest for Audio Nirvana. *Even if* someone's
speakers were actually crap in reality but they liked and *preferred*
them,
then their efforts would have been worthwhile. If my own efforts were/had
been crap, trust me, the 'listeners' I've had round here would have damn
soon told me so!! (You know how it is!! ;-)


All too well. For myself, I have taken what is probably the commonest
compromise path these days. I have professionally built speakers
(Sonus Faber Amators), and a home-built sub. There is no alternative
to home building for this sub because it is built into a concrete
under-stairs cupboard space. As such it has a huge internal volume and
works in effectively infinite baffle mode. This makes it very
non-boomy - musical in fact. It also goes very, very low in frequency.
It does need quite a few of those "expensive" watts, though ;-)


I don't need a sub for music, but then I've never really had a decent one!!
(We don't even use one on the Cinema setup, the afore-mentioned Ruarks do a
pretty good job without one.)