A couple of years ago I heard a Arcam integrated amp set up with my
pioneer cd deck and speakers. The sound was great to my ears. Now two
years on I cannot remember which arcam amp I heard and was thinking of
buying one on ebay and then having a visit to Wilmslow audio for a
test. Cannot remember which speakers they were matched too either.
Any thoughts on an ebay purchase and which Arcam amp please.

wrote in message
oups.com...
A couple of years ago I heard a Arcam integrated amp set up with my
pioneer cd deck and speakers. The sound was great to my ears. Now two
years on I cannot remember which arcam amp I heard and was thinking of
buying one on ebay and then having a visit to Wilmslow audio for a
test. Cannot remember which speakers they were matched too either.
Any thoughts on an ebay purchase and which Arcam amp please.



Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my 'SS
revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!!
(Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units better!!) I
am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good Phono
Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down? I'll know later, when I
get it hooked up but I'm busy atm - I've just bought a job lot of '100'
records (I stopped counting at 150!!) from an 'audiophile' and there are
some absolute gems (MFSL stuff &c.) in them - very bargainaceous, so far!!

eBay? It's like everything else - OK if you keep your wits about you and
don't go paying a 1,000 quid for a chocolate bar which *might* have a ticket
to a TV show in it!! I've just taken delivery of a pair of Tannoy 609s
which cost a good bit *less* than a pair of 609 stands (only) in an entirely
different auction and, feck me if the speakers haven't come with the stands
**included**!! (With all the fixings + solid brass banana plug adaptors!!

Wot a nice surprise!! ;-)

(Buggered up now, I wuz going to rip the dual concs out for homebrew, but
they look far too good to do that and now there's the stands as well, I
reckon I'm stuffed!! :-)

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
A couple of years ago I heard a Arcam integrated amp set up with my
pioneer cd deck and speakers. The sound was great to my ears. Now two
years on I cannot remember which arcam amp I heard and was thinking of
buying one on ebay and then having a visit to Wilmslow audio for a
test. Cannot remember which speakers they were matched too either.
Any thoughts on an ebay purchase and which Arcam amp please.



Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my 'SS
revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!!
(Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units better!!)
I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good
Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down?

**Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your Denon
fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with a pretty
face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE, then THAT is
a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp, with an
excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a lover of
MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual, with all the
recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an absolute gem. In
fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old stalwarts (Yamaha T2,
Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And they don't cost the Earth
either.

So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really
nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

In article , Trevor Wilson
writes

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
A couple of years ago I heard a Arcam integrated amp set up with my
pioneer cd deck and speakers. The sound was great to my ears. Now two
years on I cannot remember which arcam amp I heard and was thinking of
buying one on ebay and then having a visit to Wilmslow audio for a
test. Cannot remember which speakers they were matched too either.
Any thoughts on an ebay purchase and which Arcam amp please.



Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my 'SS
revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!!
(Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units better!!)
I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good
Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down?

**Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your Denon
fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with a pretty
face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE, then THAT is
a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp, with an
excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a lover of
MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual, with all the
recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an absolute gem. In
fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old stalwarts (Yamaha T2,
Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And they don't cost the Earth
either.

Quite right that, in fact a Denon tuner complete with the right external
aerial is an excellent source of audio.

However I find these days over here in the UK that a satellite receiver brings
in the best of Europe too!.

Do they have much in the way of sat signal sources over there in AU ?......

So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really
nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp.


Or even a S/H Audiolab)

--
Tony Sayer

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .

"Keith G" wrote


Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my
'SS revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood
Horns!! (Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units
better!!) I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a
particularly good Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that
down?

**Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your
Denon fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with a
pretty face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE,
then THAT is a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp,
with an excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a
lover of MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual,
with all the recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an
absolute gem. In fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old stalwarts
(Yamaha T2, Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And they don't
cost the Earth either.

So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really
nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp.



OK Trevor, thanks for that - most interesing, but 'few more'..? Bugger, the
1500AE is over *double* what I paid for the 655!!

My curiosity here was to compare the Denon with the Argos POS I have been
using (having compared CDPs) and I have reduced this stack:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/cdpcompare.JPG

To this:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/denonstack.JPG

(See how the 'spares' are created!!?? :-)

And I tell you summat - listening askance, with my back turned and eyes shut
at midnight on a foggy day and somebody else working the throttle, I
couldn't tell 'em apart!! The '30W' Argos amp weighs 5.3 kg and costs 60
quid, the '50W' Denon weighs 7.0 kg and costs 250 quid (list)!! (Where do
they get these bloody power output figures from? - I got an 8 watt 300B SET
that will blow *both* of them into the weeds!!)

Go figure (as they say)...!!

(OK, The Denon sits at 50% volume while the Argos amp is at 90% into the
stubborn little horns....)

Incidentally, I can see why SS users might not like horns - there is a
tendancy to a little 'honkiness' with them that you don't get with
valves...??!! But, contrary to what one or two here would have you believe,
us 'valvies' are not so bigotted - I love these amps and for a few weeks in
every year, it's nice to run an SS amp and soft top car!! (Well, the days of
me having a nice little soft top in the barn are long gone, but I can still
afford an SS amp or two!! :-)

Here's my last bit of Show N Tell for the day - the kid (my oldest) in this
car is 30 now!!

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/softtop.JPG

Now back to earth with a bump - I gotta go and make a start on the fascia
boards and guttering now!! :-(

(If I don't play the 'Decrepit Old Fart' card and we get someone in.....!!
;-)

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor Wilson
writes

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
A couple of years ago I heard a Arcam integrated amp set up with my
pioneer cd deck and speakers. The sound was great to my ears. Now two
years on I cannot remember which arcam amp I heard and was thinking of
buying one on ebay and then having a visit to Wilmslow audio for a
test. Cannot remember which speakers they were matched too either.
Any thoughts on an ebay purchase and which Arcam amp please.



Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my
'SS
revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!!
(Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units
better!!)
I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good
Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down?

**Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your
Denon
fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with a
pretty
face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE, then THAT
is
a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp, with an
excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a lover of
MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual, with all
the
recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an absolute gem.
In
fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old stalwarts (Yamaha T2,
Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And they don't cost the
Earth
either.

Quite right that, in fact a Denon tuner complete with the right external
aerial is an excellent source of audio.

However I find these days over here in the UK that a satellite receiver
brings
in the best of Europe too!.

Do they have much in the way of sat signal sources over there in AU
?......

**Maybe, but I really don't know. Trouble is, Australia is so damned big and
the population so small, that it doesn't pay to aim too many stellites over
the place.


So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really
nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp.


Or even a S/H Audiolab)

**Not so fond the old ones, myself. A bit hard on my ears.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .

"Keith G" wrote


Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my
'SS revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood
Horns!! (Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units
better!!) I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a
particularly good Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that
down?

**Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your
Denon fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with
a pretty face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE,
then THAT is a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp,
with an excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a
lover of MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual,
with all the recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an
absolute gem. In fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old
stalwarts (Yamaha T2, Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And
they don't cost the Earth either.

So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really
nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp.



OK Trevor, thanks for that - most interesing, but 'few more'..? Bugger,
the 1500AE is over *double* what I paid for the 655!!

**It's well worth it. In fact, you might find yourself selling off some of
your glass things to pay for it. It is a very good amp.


My curiosity here was to compare the Denon with the Argos POS I have been
using (having compared CDPs) and I have reduced this stack:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/cdpcompare.JPG

To this:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/denonstack.JPG

(See how the 'spares' are created!!?? :-)

And I tell you summat - listening askance, with my back turned and eyes
shut at midnight on a foggy day and somebody else working the throttle, I
couldn't tell 'em apart!! The '30W' Argos amp weighs 5.3 kg and costs 60
quid, the '50W' Denon weighs 7.0 kg and costs 250 quid (list)!! (Where do
they get these bloody power output figures from? - I got an 8 watt 300B
SET that will blow *both* of them into the weeds!!)

**Yeah, sure.


Go figure (as they say)...!!

(OK, The Denon sits at 50% volume while the Argos amp is at 90% into the
stubborn little horns....)

Incidentally, I can see why SS users might not like horns - there is a
tendancy to a little 'honkiness' with them that you don't get with
valves...??!! But, contrary to what one or two here would have you
believe, us 'valvies' are not so bigotted - I love these amps and for a
few weeks in every year, it's nice to run an SS amp and soft top car!!
(Well, the days of me having a nice little soft top in the barn are long
gone, but I can still afford an SS amp or two!! :-)

**Then choose a decent SS amp.


Here's my last bit of Show N Tell for the day - the kid (my oldest) in
this car is 30 now!!

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/softtop.JPG

**Oh dear. I was hoping for a Morgan, at least. MGs are so passe'. They
always sounded better than they went. Back in the day, one of my mates owned
and MGB and the other a Datsun Princess. The Datsun could easily pull 120MPH
and the MG, well...... Not so fast. Let's not even get started on oil leaks.
Did Pommy car builders ever manage to build oil seals which, well, sealed?
And this is from one who has owned four Escorts. Not one of them could keep
the oil where it belonged.


Now back to earth with a bump - I gotta go and make a start on the fascia
boards and guttering now!! :-(

**Don't get me started. I just moved to a new home and we now live the most
beautiful part of Sydney. Lots of trees (and possums, Magpies, Cockatoos, et
al). The gutters glog every fime mins or so. Since it is a two story place
and I don't espically enjoy crawling around the roof 5 Metres off the
ground, I got a quote for this fancy new non-clog guttering (it really is
very clever stuff).

http://www.easyflow.com.au/

Better than clever, actually. It's brilliant. FIFTEEN GRAND!!!! Yikes! Nice
product, but jeez. Maybe I'll keep climbing ladders for a bit longer.


(If I don't play the 'Decrepit Old Fart' card and we get someone in.....!!
;-)

**I just got back from the masseuse. Lifting 40kg amps again......


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Trevor Wilson wrote:
"Keith G" wrote in message
...
"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .
"Keith G" wrote

Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my
'SS revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood
Horns!! (Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units
better!!) I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a
particularly good Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that
down?
**Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your
Denon fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with
a pretty face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE,
then THAT is a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp,
with an excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a
lover of MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual,
with all the recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an
absolute gem. In fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old
stalwarts (Yamaha T2, Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And
they don't cost the Earth either.

So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really
nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp.


OK Trevor, thanks for that - most interesing, but 'few more'..? Bugger,
the 1500AE is over *double* what I paid for the 655!!

**It's well worth it. In fact, you might find yourself selling off some of
your glass things to pay for it. It is a very good amp.


I don't follow this, and remain pretty confused about the whole SS
pantomime. Apart from build quality (that 7-odd kg has to go somewhere)
what has that amp got that improves the way it amplifies, and hence sound?

On the one hand, I gather from technical people on this ng that all amps
which 1) drive a 2 ohm load at 3 times the maximum 8 ohm power (100W 8
ohm, 300W 2 ohm at 1% THD for 3 seconds for example); *and* 2) are
properly designed and manufactured (nearly all of the big name stuff
nowadays), will sound identical. I doubt any Denon achieves (1) btw.

On the other hand, it's not hard to find plenty of reviews and anecdotes
that suggest amplifiers at a given spec do sound different.

Curious - is there any defining factor in your opinion?!

My curiosity here was to compare the Denon with the Argos POS I have been
using (having compared CDPs) and I have reduced this stack:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/cdpcompare.JPG

To this:

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/denonstack.JPG

(See how the 'spares' are created!!?? :-)

And I tell you summat - listening askance, with my back turned and eyes
shut at midnight on a foggy day and somebody else working the throttle, I
couldn't tell 'em apart!! The '30W' Argos amp weighs 5.3 kg and costs 60
quid, the '50W' Denon weighs 7.0 kg and costs 250 quid (list)!! (Where do
they get these bloody power output figures from? - I got an 8 watt 300B
SET that will blow *both* of them into the weeds!!)

**Yeah, sure.


Well, possibly! Comparing a 100W valve amp and a 140W SS - the valve amp
is simply louder.

Go figure (as they say)...!!

(OK, The Denon sits at 50% volume while the Argos amp is at 90% into the
stubborn little horns....)

Incidentally, I can see why SS users might not like horns - there is a
tendancy to a little 'honkiness' with them that you don't get with
valves...??!! But, contrary to what one or two here would have you
believe, us 'valvies' are not so bigotted - I love these amps and for a
few weeks in every year, it's nice to run an SS amp and soft top car!!
(Well, the days of me having a nice little soft top in the barn are long
gone, but I can still afford an SS amp or two!! :-)

**Then choose a decent SS amp.

Here's my last bit of Show N Tell for the day - the kid (my oldest) in
this car is 30 now!!

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/softtop.JPG

**Oh dear. I was hoping for a Morgan, at least. MGs are so passe'. They
always sounded better than they went. Back in the day, one of my mates owned
and MGB and the other a Datsun Princess. The Datsun could easily pull 120MPH
and the MG, well...... Not so fast. Let's not even get started on oil leaks.
Did Pommy car builders ever manage to build oil seals which, well, sealed?
And this is from one who has owned four Escorts. Not one of them could keep
the oil where it belonged.

Now back to earth with a bump - I gotta go and make a start on the fascia
boards and guttering now!! :-(

**Don't get me started. I just moved to a new home and we now live the most
beautiful part of Sydney. Lots of trees (and possums, Magpies, Cockatoos, et
al). The gutters glog every fime mins or so. Since it is a two story place
and I don't espically enjoy crawling around the roof 5 Metres off the
ground, I got a quote for this fancy new non-clog guttering (it really is
very clever stuff).

http://www.easyflow.com.au/

Better than clever, actually. It's brilliant. FIFTEEN GRAND!!!! Yikes! Nice
product, but jeez. Maybe I'll keep climbing ladders for a bit longer.


Leaf blockage?

Rob

In article , Trevor Wilson
writes

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Trevor Wilson
writes

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...
A couple of years ago I heard a Arcam integrated amp set up with my
pioneer cd deck and speakers. The sound was great to my ears. Now two
years on I cannot remember which arcam amp I heard and was thinking of
buying one on ebay and then having a visit to Wilmslow audio for a
test. Cannot remember which speakers they were matched too either.
Any thoughts on an ebay purchase and which Arcam amp please.



Arcam? No idea - I've just bought a brand new Denon PMA-655R amp in my
'SS
revisited' quest for best sound from the smaller of the Firewood Horns!!
(Bloody SS seems to grip the smaller, less sensitive drive units
better!!)
I am under the impresion that it's an OK amp with a particularly good
Phono Stage - anyone care to confirm or shoot that down?

**Personally, I would spend the same Bucks (Squid) on a Rotel, as your
Denon
fairly 'screams' in the HF. IOW: It's just another Asian amp, with a
pretty
face. Now, if you'd dropped a few more Squid for the PMA1500AE, then THAT
is
a whole 'nuther cricket match. It is a very bloody good amp, with an
excellent phono stage. And I'm here to tell you that I am not a lover of
MOSFET amps, but the PMA1500AE is pretty damned good. As usual, with all
the
recent generation Denon tuners, it's matching partner is an absolute gem.
In
fact, the new Denon tuners make some of the old stalwarts (Yamaha T2,
Tandberg, et al) sound pretty damned ordinary. And they don't cost the
Earth
either.

Quite right that, in fact a Denon tuner complete with the right external
aerial is an excellent source of audio.

However I find these days over here in the UK that a satellite receiver
brings
in the best of Europe too!.

Do they have much in the way of sat signal sources over there in AU
?......

**Maybe, but I really don't know. Trouble is, Australia is so damned big and
the population so small, that it doesn't pay to aim too many stellites over
the place.

Humm Thought that something like that for covering very large areas
would be ideal..



So, in short, you should have spent a few more Squid for something really
nice, instead of another (ho-hum) Asian amp.


Or even a S/H Audiolab)

**Not so fond the old ones, myself. A bit hard on my ears.

Possibly a shade too accurate for some tastes......


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au




--
Tony Sayer

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
.. .

"Keith G" wrote


OK Trevor, thanks for that - most interesing, but 'few more'..? Bugger,
the 1500AE is over *double* what I paid for the 655!!

**It's well worth it. In fact, you might find yourself selling off some of
your glass things to pay for it. It is a very good amp.


What will it give me that I don't already have with the 655?


And I tell you summat - listening askance, with my back turned and eyes
shut at midnight on a foggy day and somebody else working the throttle, I
couldn't tell 'em apart!! The '30W' Argos amp weighs 5.3 kg and costs 60
quid, the '50W' Denon weighs 7.0 kg and costs 250 quid (list)!! (Where do
they get these bloody power output figures from? - I got an 8 watt 300B
SET that will blow *both* of them into the weeds!!)

**Yeah, sure.


Believe it/don't believe it - it matters not a jot to I....

(That's polite for 'who gives a ****?' - I've had a number of people here
who have been amazed at the sound levels from the SETs, including one or two
from here!! ;-)




Go figure (as they say)...!!

(OK, The Denon sits at 50% volume while the Argos amp is at 90% into the
stubborn little horns....)

Incidentally, I can see why SS users might not like horns - there is a
tendancy to a little 'honkiness' with them that you don't get with
valves...??!! But, contrary to what one or two here would have you
believe, us 'valvies' are not so bigotted - I love these amps and for a
few weeks in every year, it's nice to run an SS amp and soft top car!!
(Well, the days of me having a nice little soft top in the barn are long
gone, but I can still afford an SS amp or two!! :-)

**Then choose a decent SS amp.


What amps are not 'decent' - you saying the Denon 655 isn't? How about the
Argos amp? Ever heard either one...??

No, I thought not.....




Here's my last bit of Show N Tell for the day - the kid (my oldest) in
this car is 30 now!!

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/softtop.JPG

**Oh dear. I was hoping for a Morgan, at least. MGs are so passe'.


Sure, that was 15 years or more ago.....


They
always sounded better than they went.


Yep. That one was 1.5 litres in a kiddicart - far too much power for the
wooden brakes it had!!


Back in the day, one of my mates owned
and MGB and the other a Datsun Princess. The Datsun could easily pull
120MPH


Yeah, sure....


and the MG, well...... Not so fast. Let's not even get started on oil
leaks. Did Pommy car builders ever manage to build oil seals which, well,
sealed? And this is from one who has owned four Escorts. Not one of them
could keep the oil where it belonged.


Oil leaks (within reason) are like surface noise (within reason) on vinyl -
bothers the crap out of some people, others not at all....



http://www.easyflow.com.au/

Better than clever, actually. It's brilliant. FIFTEEN GRAND!!!! Yikes!
Nice product, but jeez. Maybe I'll keep climbing ladders for a bit longer.


Keep it real. In the UK you can get a 'squashed' plastic mesh tube (creates
an oval cross section) for *coppers* which will do the same job....