"John Phillips" wrote in message
...
On 2006-07-09, Jay Kaner wrote:
I am very happy with my hi-fi. The thing is, it sounds a whole lot
better
in the early hours of the morning (2-6am) than it does the rest of the
time.

Am i right in thinking this has something to do with the mains supply?
It
seems logical that it sounds at its best when the electricity supply is
at
it's lowest demand.

If there is some real difference - and human beings are quite good at
hearing things differently depending on mood, stress levels etc. so you
should be careful - then it's something of a leap to conclude that it's
the mains supply.

You will find a few sceptics in here and I'm afraid I am one of them.

If it has, would buying mains conditioners/cables help make it sound as
good
as it does at those times, the other times of the day?

If it's really a mains problem then the issue is what is the specific
problem?

- RF interference?
- Mains spikes?
- Under/over voltage?
- Harmonic distortion of the mains waveform?

A good designer of audio kit will have dealt with the effects of all of
those issues in the PSU of his kit and in the PSU rejection ratio of the
electronics. Amp designers such as Bryston and Plinius issue specific
advice that either you don't need mains conditioning for their products
or that you should not use series mains conditioners at all [1] [2].

Even if you have to protect poorly designed kit then different power
conditioners do different things. Simple series filter conditioners
(e.g. http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nuukspot/...nditioner.html)
remove spikes and RF interference.

If you need to deal with voltage variations (and the audio designer should
have dealt with +/- 15% tolerance for UK mains) or waveform distorions
then you need an entirely different and more expensive beast.

I would appreciate any advice.

My advice is to be skeptical of mains conditioners and special mains
leads. Almost all installations will not need any mains conditioning.
I suspect that most of those that do just need inexpensive spike
suppression (but you didn't mention clicks).

If you really do need mains conditioning then you need to investigate
precisely what you are protecting the kit from to determine what you
need.


[1] http://www.pliniusaudio.com/questions/index.asp: "We have found that
any mains conditioner, or filter, that acts in series with the mains
(and most work this way) will starve the amplifier and negatively
affect the sound. Try plugging the amplifier directly into the
wall socket."

[2] Bryson 4BSST manual: "Power line conditioners will not improve the
SST amplifier performance, in fact most of the time they restrict
the flow of current to the amplifier, reducing performance at higher
output levels"



You *are* Jim Lesurf and I claim my 5 pounds.....

;-)

John Phillips wrote:


If it's really a mains problem then the issue is what is the specific
problem?

- RF interference?
- Mains spikes?
- Under/over voltage?
- Harmonic distortion of the mains waveform?

One you have missed out (though it could be covered by the last) is DC
on the mains, I have found that that can alter during the day, and could
have an effect, if only causing any torroid in the supply to saturate.

Having said that, I have dreadfull mains where I am (ceramics factory up
the lane), and my mains is far from a sine wave. I have measured
(mainly) odd harmonics in it, of up to 1% all the way past 10k

As to if it effects the sound, I dont know, I dont think so, but it does
make some of my TX's buzz more than I like sometimes.

The OP, could get a cheap mains tester from someone like Rapid, and
check if the supply is measurably different at night.

--
Nick

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"John Phillips" wrote in message
...


My advice is to be skeptical of mains conditioners and special mains
leads. Almost all installations will not need any mains conditioning.
I suspect that most of those that do just need inexpensive spike
suppression (but you didn't mention clicks).



You *are* Jim Lesurf and I claim my 5 pounds.....

;-)

Oh no he isn't. :-) Can the 5 pounds be sent to me, now? :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

On 2006-07-10, Keith G wrote:

"John Phillips" wrote in message
...
...

You *are* Jim Lesurf and I claim my 5 pounds.....

;-)

I take that as a compliment.

I don't know if Jim will see it the same way, though ...

--
John Phillips

On 2006-07-10, Nick Gorham wrote:
John Phillips wrote:
If it's really a mains problem then the issue is what is the specific
problem?

- RF interference?
- Mains spikes?
- Under/over voltage?
- Harmonic distortion of the mains waveform?

One you have missed out (though it could be covered by the last) is DC
on the mains, I have found that that can alter during the day, and could
have an effect, if only causing any torroid in the supply to saturate.

Yes. Good point.

Having said that, I have dreadfull mains where I am (ceramics factory up
the lane), and my mains is far from a sine wave. I have measured
(mainly) odd harmonics in it, of up to 1% all the way past 10k

The trouble is that if you do need a good mains sine wave then I think
the only obvious solution (not that I'm well acquainted with the matter)
is to rectify and carefully invert. That's not a cheap solution.

As to if it effects the sound, I dont know, I dont think so, but it does
make some of my TX's buzz more than I like sometimes.

I imagine it will offset the transformer's magnetic cycle and reduce
its rating but I would need to ask an expert to be sure. I wonder if
there's a DC spec. for the UK mains?

The OP, could get a cheap mains tester from someone like Rapid, and
check if the supply is measurably different at night.

Yes. The trouble is that things sold as "mains contitioners" to the
hi-fi-buying public these days are by no means all the same. Until you
know what you need to deal with you can't tell what to do about it.

And again, I think good audio kit should deal with normal mains
aberrations so I suspect most people buying a "mains conditioner" are
getting no real advantage.

--
John Phillips

"John Phillips"
Nick Gorham


One you have missed out (though it could be covered by the last) is DC
on the mains, I have found that that can alter during the day, and could
have an effect, if only causing any torroid in the supply to saturate.

( snip interlude)

I imagine it will offset the transformer's magnetic cycle and reduce
its rating but I would need to ask an expert to be sure. I wonder if
there's a DC spec. for the UK mains?


** Having a " DC offset " on the AC supply implies the + and - peak
voltages of the supply waveform are not exactly the same. So, when tested
with an DC meter it shows a reading of a few volts.

Such differences are not uncommon and DO have the same effect on the primary
and core of a transformer as an actual DC voltage of the same value.
Toroidal core mains transformers are particularly sensitive to any DC
component and tend to magnetically saturate early on one half cycle of the
supply voltage and also make a humming noise.

I have been able to raise the off load primary current of a 300VA toroidal
from a few mA to near its full VA rating by simple operating a 1600 watt hot
air gun # at half power setting from the same power outlet.

At half setting, a diode in the gun causes load current to be drawn from
one half cycle and not the other and that does the trick.


( # Black and Decker, made in England)





........ Phil

"John Phillips" wrote in message
...
On 2006-07-10, Keith G wrote:

"John Phillips" wrote in message
...
...

You *are* Jim Lesurf and I claim my 5 pounds.....

;-)

I take that as a compliment.

I don't know if Jim will see it the same way, though ...



I don't see why not - it was an excellent reply.

I can see Mr Kaner's point though, music *does* sound particularly exquisite
in the wee smalls (the only time for proper Jazz in my book!) and, assuming
his kit/'software' remains unchanged, the only factor which might be altered
is the 'external' one - ie the lecky coming in. But I would add that, as an
habitual 'you're playing too loud' artist myself, if he is listening at
subdued levels and there are less 'daytime distractions' they both might
help to focus his attention to the music....??

In article , John Phillips
wrote:
On 2006-07-10, Keith G wrote:

"John Phillips" wrote in message
...
...

You *are* Jim Lesurf and I claim my 5 pounds.....

;-)

I take that as a compliment.

Well, I take it as a compliment that you say so. :-)

I don't know if Jim will see it the same way, though ...

I agreed with what you wrote about power conditioning, etc. Didn't
contribute as it seemed like the relevant points had been covered.

We may now have to wonder who gets 5 pounds, though... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"John Phillips" wrote in message
...


My advice is to be skeptical of mains conditioners and special mains
leads. Almost all installations will not need any mains conditioning.
I suspect that most of those that do just need inexpensive spike
suppression (but you didn't mention clicks).



You *are* Jim Lesurf and I claim my 5 pounds.....

;-)

Oh no he isn't. :-) Can the 5 pounds be sent to me, now? :-)



No, you've blown it! (He won't send the money now!! :-)

My advice is to be skeptical of mains conditioners and special mains
leads. Almost all installations will not need any mains conditioning.


I'm in a London flat and you can well imagine the layers of crud flying
about everywhere. I use a big industrial double toroid mains
conditioner - serious kit, not Russ Andrews - and it does improve the
sound.