Mark Levinson - are they good or just over rated
 

"David Houpt"


How about some laser lights shining around on the ceiling while the music
plays?


** Now we all know were this ADS ****ed , bedroom ****** is coming from
.......





..... Phil

Mark Levinson - are they good or just over rated
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Serge Auckland" wrote



I think you've put your finger on the reason for the current state of
"high-end" that seems to be all about architectural, sculptural,
aesthetic (choose your own term) appeal. It has nothing to do with
sound quality which is, as I think many of us agree, already of a
very high order. Consequently, what now distinguishes the high-end
from the "normal" stuff is the machined-out-of-solid casework,
turntables that could easily hold up the Parthenon, 'speakers that
could *be* the Parthenon and so on. It's moved on from a quest for
audio "perfection" to something that enhances the decor, becomes a
talking point with visitors, or is just pleasing to look at. Much
like a statue, painting or any other objet d'art.

I tend to regard it as "jewellery for boys". :-)


Absolutely, but is it really such a bad thing?

Yes - if the innocent or gullable are mislead into thinking you *have* to
pay for the above to obtain good quality results for the sound.



How innocent or gullible can you be to actually *have* the money to throw
down on 'high-end bling'? (Different story if someone sold a
kidney/child/their only house to buy it - then the sooner they are removed
from the gene pool, the better!!) But I maintain that if anyone perceives
(or is persuaded to perceive) a 'better sound' from expensive (ridiculously
expensive, if you like) kit and *they can afford it* where's the harm? Said
it a million times before - not everyone seeks 'cheap' or even 'good VFM' -
even with stuff like casual footware, the 'badge' is all for some types....

I for one don't think the dissappearance of the 'high end' in any commodity
is a good thing - as I stated earlier, standards are are raised only by the
high end and, from what I can see of it, 'cheap only' usually brings down a
commercial organisation that can't achieve the necessary, unassailable
'critical mass' like that of Walmart and Tesco, who can 'pile it high and
sell it cheap'...!! (Witness the occasional disappearance of 'home
electronics' high street chains and Internet dotcoms...)

'Expensive only' is a different ballgame and can/does work in many areas,
but mostly for very well-established brands in the various *luxury item*
categories - it can be a short road to ruin for organisations that don't
realise *positive cashflow* needs to be as regular as the need to eat....

(Note also the topic is about expensive brands, not 'snake oil' products as
such....)



I'd certainly recommend people to buy equipment whose looks, features, and
durability are of a high order - if they are minded to agree that those
aspects are important to them. However the concern is for those who only
'known' what they have read by scanning a few magazines who go into a shop
and are mislead into parting with a lot of cash under the delusion that
these things are required for good sound.


There's probably more of that goes on at the low-midfi end of the market
than with the truly expensive stuff - this month's '5 star product' kinda
thing....??

Mark Levinson - are they good or just over rated
 

"David Houpt" wrote in message
. uk...
any changes in the future are likely to be of an 'upward' nature
to kit that has a degree of 'aesthetic appeal', some twinkly bits and
mebbe a few nice, blue LEDs....

:-)

Hi Keith

How about some laser lights shining around on the ceiling while the music
plays?

David



I could do better than that, now my room is Screen 2 in our 'Home
Multiplex' - I could get some footage of those wax/oil transparencies from
the 60s and project it on the wall!!

:-)

Mark Levinson - are they good or just over rated
 

I just realised that Phil's posts make far more sense if you picture the
old South Park bus driver while reading them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms._Veronica_Crabtree


:-)

--
Nick

that's great but I always think of Les Pattersons younger brother who
is more slobby and can't get any.

Mark Levinson - are they good or just over rated
 

Tim wrote:
I just realised that Phil's posts make far more sense if you picture the
old South Park bus driver while reading them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ms._Veronica_Crabtree


:-)

--
Nick


that's great but I always think of Les Pattersons younger brother who
is more slobby and can't get any.


It was the screaming that made it for me (that and the bird that lives
in her hair).

--
Nick

Mark Levinson - are they good or just over rated
 

In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
[snip]

Yes - if the innocent or gullable are mislead into thinking you *have*
to pay for the above to obtain good quality results for the sound.



How innocent or gullible can you be to actually *have* the money to
throw down on 'high-end bling'? (Different story if someone sold a
kidney/child/their only house to buy it - then the sooner they are
removed from the gene pool, the better!!)

Sad to say, the reality is that most of the people who go into a shop to
buy an audio system (and most of those who regularly read the relevant
consumer mags) have almost no real understanding of either the physics or
the engineering involved. They also are unlikely to have any knowledge of
the relevant physiology, psychology of perception, or how to carry out a
comparison in order to get meaningful results.

This does not stop them having the money. Nor does it prevent them from
enjoying listening to music. Indeed, they might know a great deal about
music.

Even sadder to say, this means that they make choices on the basis of
ignorance and misinformation which easily misleads them. The mags often
don't give them reliable information which relates to their case. And the
man in the shop may know no more than them about the above, so cheerfully
misleads them. So it is often presented as 'mysteries man cannot
understand' why one item might be judged different to another. Ignorance
presented as a way of life.


But I maintain that if anyone perceives (or is persuaded to perceive) a
'better sound' from expensive (ridiculously expensive, if you like) kit
and *they can afford it* where's the harm? Said it a million times
before - not everyone seeks 'cheap' or even 'good VFM' - even with stuff
like casual footware, the 'badge' is all for some types....

Sure. But is that the same is taking money from people on the basis of
exploiting their ignorance?

If someone goes into the shop and says that they *don't* want the best
sound for their money, or to only to spend sufficient to get a decent
sound, fair enough, fleece them. But how many people say this?

I for one don't think the dissappearance of the 'high end' in any
commodity is a good thing

Alas, "high end" is a meaningless term in this context as it confuses
"fancy price", "neat appearance", etc, with "better sonic results".

The problem being that this relies on exploiting the ignorance of the
purchaser and misleading them into sending money, thinking they are getting
something for the extra cash which they may not.

But this isn't just about the fabled "high end". It is also about people in
situations like the one recounted by Bob Latham recently. They go into the
shop and are involved in a 'comparison' which may actually be worthless or
misleading. This may mean they buy one item, when something else might have
actually been 'better' (in terms of their *own* judgement) in actual use,
for much the same price, even for modestly priced items.

I can't see the above as being a good thing to put people through. It isn't
something I'd be happy to defend or excuse away.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Mark Levinson - are they good or just over rated
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
[snip]

Yes - if the innocent or gullable are mislead into thinking you *have*
to pay for the above to obtain good quality results for the sound.



How innocent or gullible can you be to actually *have* the money to
throw down on 'high-end bling'? (Different story if someone sold a
kidney/child/their only house to buy it - then the sooner they are
removed from the gene pool, the better!!)

Sad to say, the reality is that most of the people who go into a shop to
buy an audio system (and most of those who regularly read the relevant
consumer mags) have almost no real understanding of either the physics or
the engineering involved. They also are unlikely to have any knowledge of
the relevant physiology, psychology of perception, or how to carry out a
comparison in order to get meaningful results.


I know - *disgusting* isn't it? :-)



This does not stop them having the money. Nor does it prevent them from
enjoying listening to music. Indeed, they might know a great deal about
music.


Oops....



Even sadder to say, this means that they make choices on the basis of
ignorance and misinformation which easily misleads them. The mags often
don't give them reliable information which relates to their case. And the
man in the shop may know no more than them about the above, so cheerfully
misleads them. So it is often presented as 'mysteries man cannot
understand' why one item might be judged different to another. Ignorance
presented as a way of life.


Sure, but so what if it's smiles all round...??




But I maintain that if anyone perceives (or is persuaded to perceive) a
'better sound' from expensive (ridiculously expensive, if you like) kit
and *they can afford it* where's the harm? Said it a million times
before - not everyone seeks 'cheap' or even 'good VFM' - even with stuff
like casual footware, the 'badge' is all for some types....

Sure. But is that the same is taking money from people on the basis of
exploiting their ignorance?


Indirectly yes, I would say - the groundwork to set up the 'badge' as the
desired item will have been done some time in the past, but there's all
sorts of exploitation goes on, it's not uncommon and I don't think it's
always negative - I bet there's *dozens* of nuclear physicists cheerfully
getting ripped off by dodgy washing-machine repairmen every single day!!



If someone goes into the shop and says that they *don't* want the best
sound for their money, or to only to spend sufficient to get a decent
sound, fair enough, fleece them. But how many people say this?


Huh? It's OK to fleece people who say they only want a cheap but decent
sound?

I have overheard plenty of people say they 'don't want to go overboard' and
that they would be happy if the sound is 'merely OK' (my words) - I've also
heard a cheap, secondhand turntable described by the shop owner as
'perfectly OK if you just want to make a bit of noise'. Not everybody is up
there in La La Land wanting the 'being there' experience from hifi kit -
quite a few realise that 'you only get what you pay for' and don't expect
the very best for shirt buttons!



I for one don't think the dissappearance of the 'high end' in any
commodity is a good thing

Alas, "high end" is a meaningless term in this context as it confuses
"fancy price", "neat appearance", etc, with "better sonic results".


No James, it confuses nothing - it *encompasses* all those things! Most
sensible *ordinary people* have a pretty good idea of which way's up and are
well aware of the '****take possibilities' in most things, I find....

In my book, ignorant isn't somebody being sold a pup, it's when people buy a
pup *knowing* it's a pup!! Fake clothing and watches spring immediately to
mind, as opposed to *unknowingly* buying 'counterfeit goods' which are
indistinguishable from the originals, like certain car parts for instance!!


The problem being that this relies on exploiting the ignorance of the
purchaser and misleading them into sending money, thinking they are
getting
something for the extra cash which they may not.


I don't really think all high-end gear is sold like that, but perhaps I
should shut up - I don't own any 'high-end' gear, I don't want any and so
I'll never buy any.....

Mark Levinson - are they good or just over rated
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
[snip]
Yes - if the innocent or gullable are mislead into thinking you *have*
to pay for the above to obtain good quality results for the sound.

snip

The problem being that this [supply of 'high end' hifi] relies on exploiting the ignorance of the
purchaser and misleading them into sending money, thinking they are getting
something for the extra cash which they may not.


But they *are* getting something extra for the cash?! They're getting
status, myth-worship, and the aesthetic. More tangibly they could well
be getting higher quality components (from case to switches to
electronics) and controversially (but don't discount it) better sound.
It's just a product of marketing followed by competitive materialism
with a whiff of tangible benefit. 'Ignorant' is a bit strong IMO.

I do believe that people, on the whole, *know* this is going on.

Rob

Mark Levinson - are they good or just over rated
 

In article , Rob
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
[snip]
Yes - if the innocent or gullable are mislead into thinking you
*have* to pay for the above to obtain good quality results for the
sound.

snip

The problem being that this [supply of 'high end' hifi] relies on
exploiting the ignorance of the purchaser and misleading them into
sending money, thinking they are getting something for the extra cash
which they may not.


But they *are* getting something extra for the cash?! They're getting
status, myth-worship, and the aesthetic.

But is this what "they" actually wanted/expected for the money? And
by "they" do you mean everyone?

More tangibly they could well be getting higher quality components (from
case to switches to electronics) and

Question as above.


controversially (but don't discount it) better sound.

s/controversially/allegedly/ :-)

But are they? It would often be difficult for anyone to know on the
basis of the magazine 'reviews', the sale methods in the shops, and the
decisions they make on that basis.

It's just a product of marketing followed by competitive materialism
with a whiff of tangible benefit. 'Ignorant' is a bit strong IMO.

'Ignorant' means that one doesn't have the necessary/relevant information.
This is either the case, or it is not. It seems to me blatently obvious
that this is likely to be the case in the situations being discussed.

I do believe that people, on the whole, *know* this is going on.

I have serious doubts about that "on the whole". If so, why would so
much unsubstantated/incorrect/vacuous nonsense appear in the magazines,
and some people then keep saying things which show they take it seriously?

The concern here is that having read such material, they may assume the
'information' gives them a well-informed basis for decisions, when it
reality it does nothing of the kind.

Why would people take seriously 'comparisons' in a shop that may well
be meaningless, and purchase on that basis? The problem here is the
same as the above.

I agree that many people who go into a audio shop are aware they don't know
much about how the items work. They may also suspect that the salepeople
are ignorant or biassed. But on what basis do they then decide? Amd how do
they spot when the salespeople are using methods which would easily
mislead? They may or may not be aware of their ignorance, but the basis may
still be that ignorance - exploited by the methods used in the magazines
and shops.

I would argue that many buy magazines, or consult a dealer, with the wish
to get reliable information and advice. OK, some people will also buy mags
as 'jewellery catalogues' and just to see pictures of wildly expensive
items they will never own, see, or hear. But is this the reason people buy
such magazines, or consult a dealer, before choosing what they actually buy
and take home?

I wish I had your/Keith's blythe confidence that this didn't matter.
However my own experience over the years does not lead me to share your
views, I'm afraid.

This does not mean that the equipment they all take home is 'bad' or
sounds awful. Just that they can be easily mislead or exploited, and
might well have got something they'd have preferred if given more
reliable information and advice - possibly at a lower cost, or
possibly more capable for what they paid, according to their own
preferences.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Mark Levinson - are they good or just over rated
 

"Rob" wrote in message
...
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
[snip]
Yes - if the innocent or gullable are mislead into thinking you *have*
to pay for the above to obtain good quality results for the sound.

snip

The problem being that this [supply of 'high end' hifi] relies on
exploiting the ignorance of the
purchaser and misleading them into sending money, thinking they are
getting
something for the extra cash which they may not.


But they *are* getting something extra for the cash?! They're getting
status, myth-worship, and the aesthetic. More tangibly they could well be
getting higher quality components (from case to switches to electronics)
and controversially (but don't discount it) better sound. It's just a
product of marketing followed by competitive materialism with a whiff of
tangible benefit. 'Ignorant' is a bit strong IMO.

I do believe that people, on the whole, *know* this is going on.


The difficulty is trying to explain that a lot of people get their pleasure
from a lot of different things when it comes to stuff like hifi, which is
why I occasionally advise 'buy summat you can't really afford' - nothing
worse than getting a quick, easy and cheap solution to anything, it *never*
satisfies the demon within...