Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent

someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?

Cheers

Max

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

On 16 Jan 2007 17:03:42 -0800, "max graff" wrote:

Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent

someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?


Yup. Start drinking decaf and take up gardening. It is all starting to
get to you - and not in a good way.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

max graff wrote:
Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent

someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?

Cheers

Max


I think this is another case of "different, so must be better". By that
I mean that changing the soft rubber feet for hard cones will couple the
turntable to the support, as there's no other form of isolation. This
will make the turntable behave differently to acoustic feedback, it will
make it more susceptible to feedback, as whatever the support is will be
storing energy, and passing it directly to the turntable which is now
intimately coupled to it. Previously, with the soft rubber feet, only
acoustic energy falling directly on the turntable (including of course
the cover) could give rise to feedback.

Consequently, the turntable system will now sound different, and in this
peculiar world many of us inhabit, any change is seen as an improvement.
If the turntable had genuinely sounded better with hard cones rather
than rubber feet, don't you suppose the manufacturer might have supplied
it that way?

S.

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

Serge Auckland wrote:
max graff wrote:

Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent


someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?

Cheers

Max


I think this is another case of "different, so must be better". By that
I mean that changing the soft rubber feet for hard cones will couple the
turntable to the support, as there's no other form of isolation. This
will make the turntable behave differently to acoustic feedback, it will
make it more susceptible to feedback, as whatever the support is will be
storing energy, and passing it directly to the turntable which is now
intimately coupled to it. Previously, with the soft rubber feet, only
acoustic energy falling directly on the turntable (including of course
the cover) could give rise to feedback.

Consequently, the turntable system will now sound different, and in this
peculiar world many of us inhabit, any change is seen as an improvement.
If the turntable had genuinely sounded better with hard cones rather
than rubber feet, don't you suppose the manufacturer might have supplied
it that way?

S.

I would have expected the manufacturer to have supplied the best
solution that would cover the worst case user. It may be that in this
case, a low level of isolation may be sufficient to prevent feedback.
And it may be that a different suspension could be a improvement.

My car seat has several adjustments to make it fit me, the same may be
true here.

But you can't know for certain without trying. There are several other
things you can stand a turntable on to see if they make a difference
without spending HiFi prices. Squash balls and wooden cabinet handles
are two you could try and see if you think there is a difference and if
you prefer it (avoiding the "better" word).

Making sure the table is level however is something you need to check
whatever you stand it on.

--
Nick

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

Nick Gorham wrote:
Serge Auckland wrote:
max graff wrote:

Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent


someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?

Cheers

Max


I think this is another case of "different, so must be better". By
that I mean that changing the soft rubber feet for hard cones will
couple the turntable to the support, as there's no other form of
isolation. This will make the turntable behave differently to acoustic
feedback, it will make it more susceptible to feedback, as whatever
the support is will be storing energy, and passing it directly to the
turntable which is now intimately coupled to it. Previously, with the
soft rubber feet, only acoustic energy falling directly on the
turntable (including of course the cover) could give rise to feedback.

Consequently, the turntable system will now sound different, and in
this peculiar world many of us inhabit, any change is seen as an
improvement.
If the turntable had genuinely sounded better with hard cones rather
than rubber feet, don't you suppose the manufacturer might have
supplied it that way?

S.

I would have expected the manufacturer to have supplied the best
solution that would cover the worst case user. It may be that in this
case, a low level of isolation may be sufficient to prevent feedback.
And it may be that a different suspension could be a improvement.

I agree that the manufacturer will supply the best solution that would
cover the worst case user. However, if in this case, a lower level of
isolation may be sufficient, I don't understand why changing to cones
(which have *no* isolation) could be an improvement. At best, there
would be no difference, at worse the lack of isolation will change the
sound. Then it goes back to my original thought that different=better.

My car seat has several adjustments to make it fit me, the same may be
true here.

No really, unless the manufacturer fitted adjustable hardness
suspension, which they didn't.

But you can't know for certain without trying. There are several other
things you can stand a turntable on to see if they make a difference
without spending HiFi prices. Squash balls and wooden cabinet handles
are two you could try and see if you think there is a difference and if
you prefer it (avoiding the "better" word).

Agree absolutely that the suspension makes a difference to the
propensity to feedback and hence coloration. However, as the
manufacturer has done their best to provide isolation in the form of
soft rubber feet, how is changing that an improvement? different=better
again? Your avoidance of the word "better" above is a bit of sophistry
given that if you prefer it, then, for you, it *is* better. My post was
an attempt to be objective, that all changes, *even if you prefer them*
are not necessarily better when evaluated objectively.


Making sure the table is level however is something you need to check
whatever you stand it on.

Hear Hear!

S.

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

Serge Auckland wrote:


Agree absolutely that the suspension makes a difference to the
propensity to feedback and hence coloration. However, as the
manufacturer has done their best to provide isolation in the form of
soft rubber feet, how is changing that an improvement? different=better
again? Your avoidance of the word "better" above is a bit of sophistry
given that if you prefer it, then, for you, it *is* better. My post was
an attempt to be objective, that all changes, *even if you prefer them*
are not necessarily better when evaluated objectively.


Well, I avoided the (subjective)better==(objective)better problem to try
and escape triggering the potential flame fest that often happens. But
to address your point, there is more going on in the mechanics of a
turntable than just isolation. If the table needs compliant mounting to
avoid feedback, then thats fine use it. However if the support is
sufficiently isolated to avoid that, then there can be advantages to
increasing the effective mass of the turntable by solid coupling, as
this can reduce the effect of motor induced vibration. Which in my
limited experence of Project turntables may be worthwhile as the motors
are often not as silent as could be hoped.

Again, YMMV, but the point is, it can vary, hence my suggestion to try
cheap solutions to see if the result it to the OP's liking.

--
Nick

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk


But to address your point, there
is more going on in the mechanics of a turntable than
just isolation. If the table needs compliant mounting to
avoid feedback, then thats fine use it. However if the
support is sufficiently isolated to avoid that, then
there can be advantages to increasing the effective mass
of the turntable by solid coupling, as this can reduce
the effect of motor induced vibration.

Here's a skill-testing question for you, Nick.

What are good ways to figure out which problem is most important to a given
vinyl rig?

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk



But to address your point, there
is more going on in the mechanics of a turntable than
just isolation. If the table needs compliant mounting to
avoid feedback, then thats fine use it. However if the
support is sufficiently isolated to avoid that, then
there can be advantages to increasing the effective mass
of the turntable by solid coupling, as this can reduce
the effect of motor induced vibration.


Here's a skill-testing question for you, Nick.

What are good ways to figure out which problem is most important to a given
vinyl rig?




Hmm, have to think on that one.

Just realised though, that increasing the effective mass of the
turntable can also increase its resistance to air and support born
vibration, so its not a either/or situation.

--
Nick

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk



But to address your point, there
is more going on in the mechanics of a turntable than
just isolation. If the table needs compliant mounting to
avoid feedback, then thats fine use it. However if the
support is sufficiently isolated to avoid that, then
there can be advantages to increasing the effective mass
of the turntable by solid coupling, as this can reduce
the effect of motor induced vibration.


Here's a skill-testing question for you, Nick.

What are good ways to figure out which problem is most important to a given
vinyl rig?




One thought would be to compare recording of the output of the table
both in the sound field of the loudspeakers and not. But that isn't
comparing the effect of reducing the mass. I guess, you would have to
make four recordings, and decide which of them was prefered.

--
Nick

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On 16 Jan 2007 17:03:42 -0800, "max graff" wrote:

Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent

someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?


Yup. Start drinking decaf and take up gardening. It is all starting to
get to you - and not in a good way.



I'm with you on this one, Don.....

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

Keith G wrote:
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

On 16 Jan 2007 17:03:42 -0800, "max graff" wrote:


Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent

someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?


Yup. Start drinking decaf and take up gardening. It is all starting to
get to you - and not in a good way.




I'm with you on this one, Don.....


Err, how long ago was it that you were posting pictures of slabs of
stone under DD turntables and considering removing the plinths?

--
Nick

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk...
Keith G wrote:
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...

On 16 Jan 2007 17:03:42 -0800, "max graff" wrote:


Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent

someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?


Yup. Start drinking decaf and take up gardening. It is all starting to
get to you - and not in a good way.




I'm with you on this one, Don.....


Err, how long ago was it that you were posting pictures of slabs of stone
under DD turntables and considering removing the plinths?



Nothing to do with it - the OP has described the worst scenario I can think
of for a TT (irrespective of drive) - rigid rack on a tiled floor (****ed if
he lives near the Underground, a railway or a busy main road, I would have
thought??) without any mention of isolation of any other 'transmitted
vibration absorption' mechanism.

My setup is massy and fairly well isolated - quite the opposite of the OP's
and my experiments were merely to determine that, having coupled extra mass
to a lightweight deck (alters inertia and resonance characteristics), soft
feet versus 'hard point' contact like spikes (OK, sponges and wooden balls
in my case - but, hey, at my age what do you expect?) had little or no
audible effect on the sound - as you witnessed yourself...

(Like the bugs in cheese - if I can't see it or hear it and it doesn't give
me the trots, then I'm not bothered about it...!! ;-)

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk



But to address your point, there
is more going on in the mechanics of a turntable than
just isolation. If the table needs compliant mounting to
avoid feedback, then thats fine use it. However if the
support is sufficiently isolated to avoid that, then
there can be advantages to increasing the effective mass
of the turntable by solid coupling, as this can reduce
the effect of motor induced vibration.


Here's a skill-testing question for you, Nick.

What are good ways to figure out which problem is most
important to a given vinyl rig?

One thought would be to compare recording of the output
of the table both in the sound field of the loudspeakers
and not.

One evaluates motor noise by listening, measuring or making a recording with
the motor turning and the stylus in a groove. The record need not be turning
(we are not evaluating platter bearing noise, for example). So slip off the
belt. The speakers should be well isolated from the player. IOW, listen with
headphones, and if measurements or a recording is used, simply disconnect
the speakers or otherwise turn them off.

One evaluates pickup of external vibration including feedback by similar
means. Only now the motor can be turned off.

If acoustic feedback is the issue, then turn up the gain slowly until a
steady tone is heard, and back off just a bit. Note how much gain it takes
to just barely sustain feedback. Make whatever changes you wish, and see if
the gain before feedback can be increased.

If vibration sensitivity is the issue, then devise a means for producing a
consistant source of vibration. I have evaluated resistance to footfalls by
pushing a padded weight off of a chair onto the floor. This can be a fairly
consistent kind of stimulus. Be careful to not inadevertantly mix a test of
resistance to feedback into the test.



But that isn't comparing the effect of reducing
the mass.



I guess, you would have to make four
recordings, and decide which of them was prefered.

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
et.uk




But to address your point, there
is more going on in the mechanics of a turntable than
just isolation. If the table needs compliant mounting to
avoid feedback, then thats fine use it. However if the
support is sufficiently isolated to avoid that, then
there can be advantages to increasing the effective mass
of the turntable by solid coupling, as this can reduce
the effect of motor induced vibration.


Here's a skill-testing question for you, Nick.

What are good ways to figure out which problem is most
important to a given vinyl rig?


One thought would be to compare recording of the output
of the table both in the sound field of the loudspeakers
and not.


One evaluates motor noise by listening, measuring or making a recording with
the motor turning and the stylus in a groove. The record need not be turning
(we are not evaluating platter bearing noise, for example). So slip off the
belt. The speakers should be well isolated from the player. IOW, listen with
headphones, and if measurements or a recording is used, simply disconnect
the speakers or otherwise turn them off.

Ok, but what about motor noise that is transmitted via the belt? or
(shock horror) there isn't a belt? :-)

--
Nick

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk



But to address your point, there
is more going on in the mechanics of a turntable than
just isolation. If the table needs compliant mounting to
avoid feedback, then thats fine use it. However if the
support is sufficiently isolated to avoid that, then
there can be advantages to increasing the effective mass
of the turntable by solid coupling, as this can reduce
the effect of motor induced vibration.

Here's a skill-testing question for you, Nick.

What are good ways to figure out which problem is most
important to a given vinyl rig?

One thought would be to compare recording of the output
of the table both in the sound field of the loudspeakers
and not.

One evaluates motor noise by listening, measuring or making a recording with
the motor turning and the stylus in a groove. The record need not be turning
(we are not evaluating platter bearing noise, for example). So slip off the
belt. The speakers should be well isolated from the player. IOW, listen with
headphones, and if measurements or a recording is used, simply disconnect
the speakers or otherwise turn them off.


And/or couple the stylus to the plinth by resting it on a block of wood
(for example) - a useful estimate of mechanical noise from non-suspended
decks in particular.

Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message


Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk




But to address your point, there
is more going on in the mechanics of a turntable than
just isolation. If the table needs compliant mounting
to avoid feedback, then thats fine use it. However if
the support is sufficiently isolated to avoid that,
then there can be advantages to increasing the
effective mass of the turntable by solid coupling, as
this can reduce the effect of motor induced vibration.


Here's a skill-testing question for you, Nick.

What are good ways to figure out which problem is most
important to a given vinyl rig?


One thought would be to compare recording of the output
of the table both in the sound field of the loudspeakers
and not.


One evaluates motor noise by listening, measuring or
making a recording with the motor turning and the stylus
in a groove. The record need not be turning (we are not
evaluating platter bearing noise, for example). So slip
off the belt. The speakers should be well isolated from
the player. IOW, listen with headphones, and if
measurements or a recording is used, simply disconnect
the speakers or otherwise turn them off.

Ok, but what about motor noise that is transmitted via
the belt?

Rarely an issue. That's one of the benefits of belts - they act like a giant
low pass filter.

or (shock horror) there isn't a belt? :-)

Generalized plan B - use a test record and live with all of the noises and
vibrations are part of your measurement.