how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article l, jaap
wrote:
Serge Auckland schreef:


Personally I never liked the 'digital' sound with its harsh highs and
unnatural dynamics. But OK, tastes differ (we say over here).



Digital has no "sound". CD is a transparent carrier, in that whatever
goes in comes out, to the limits of the 16 bit 44.1 system, which
comfortably exceeds the human ability to hear. You may not like what
is being done with CDs (I also hate today's Mastering, it's all bout
loudness, not quality) but that's nothing to do with the carrier,
which is transparent to well past the limits of human hearing.

Sorry, I do not agree with you. Sound is affected by everything it comes
in contact with. The surrounding, electronic parts, the hairs in your
ears, noise, air temperature and more. Talk with a musician and stop
believing technicians have a complete picture of nature.


Interesting to see that people still fall for the line of argument. :-)

I've lost count of how many times people have dragged out that argument as
if it supported the beliefs they have that amps/cables/caps/etc all sound
'different'.

Actually, you can also easily use the same argument that "everything has
an effect or makes some tiny difference" *against* your belief. :-)

The reality, though, seems to be that when people conduct appropriately run
listening comparisons, the claimed 'differences' fail to show up. The only
exceptions tend to be for reasons the people you patronise as 'technicians'
can generally explain and deal with.

If you know of some examples where such tests have given assessable evidence
for what you claim, please give a reference as I'd be interested.



Please do a simple test exchanging capacitors in the PS of your audio
equipment or in your speaker crossovers. It might or might not be
measurable but one can hear definitely the change of coloration. Unless
you don't listen to music of course :)

I have in the past repeatedly done what you suggest. The results where than
when I tried the results on people, no-one could tell the difference if
they'd not been told what I'd done. i.e. the sounds gave them no audible
signs.

One of the problems with Digital audio is that only part of the actual
information is recorded.

This is, of course, also true for 'analogue audio'. :-)

Again, in reality though, it will depend on what 'information' was
present in what was to be recorded, and what 'information' would
have have actually had a percievable affect. All real-world systems
have a finite ability to convey or respond to information.


Right now I am listening through a 1.5 watt amplifier giving me more
than enough decibells to feed the 4x6 meter room. Hardrock or orchestra,
no problem. The problem is with the loudspeakers, not having made
serious progress since 1960.

If you think speakers haven't made any progress since 1960 I'd suggest you
get out more. :-) Try, for example, listening to a pair of ESL63's. :-)

Or is your definition of 'progress' based on the unstated requirement that
the speaker has to have an efficiency of well over 100dB/W? ;-

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article l, jaap
wrote:


Don don't be offended, I won't either. The logic behind colorations
associated with cables and capacitors are explicable by electrical
properties.

Such 'explanations' have been given on many occasions. The snag is as Don
and other have pointed out. No-one we know of have ever shown they can
*hear* the claimed differences when they take part in a suitable
comparison. Lots of claims, though.

The 'differences' seem to evaporate once people have to decide based only
on the sound, and they have no other clues.

I can hear the difference between five or six cables, even
more capacitors (I have hundreds to play with and I do!) and so can you
(I presume). Never heard from James Randi but when we meet I'll buy you
a drink, as many as you need to forget your equipment and hard obtained
knowledge. Then we have a (blind) test listening to beautiful music.

I look forward to you subjecting your faith to the test. :-)

IIUC You can contact Randi via the web. Please let us know how you get on.
I for one will be interested since I've repeatedly in the past done
comparisons and found that none of those tested could hear what you claim.
(Given some fairly basic requiremnents like the components having similar
capacitances, etc.)

Come to think of it, since you claim that amps years ago were 'better' than
those nowdays, i guess my old tests should be more impressive to you as I
did them some years ago, and used 'analog' sources. ;-

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article l,
jaap wrote:
My opinion is based on human hearing and not on the momentary
technological approach from a-musical tecchies. I got to this opinion
speaking with fellow musiclovers, who share a passion for the best
obtainable. Most got tube amps under 5W per channel, some built their
own, often accomplished by single driver speakers.

Then they're certainly not interested in 'the best obtainable'. They just
prefer the colouration and distortions such a system *adds* to any signal.
In any tests comparing live to recorded such a system will come well down
the list. A sort of Picasso versus photograph thing.

--
*How come you never hear about gruntled employees? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article l,
jaap wrote:
What's your standard of performance? Reading a 100Mhz scope?
My standard is about music with as little as possible interference,
whatever technology, cosmetics, cyphers, brand or anything.

Ah - the usual argument. You're a music lover so therefore know everything
about judging sound reproduction. I can get pleasure out of listing to a
good performance on a mechanical phonograph. But don't try and fool myself
it's the best available.

--
*Strip mining prevents forest fires.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article l,
jaap wrote:
Another example: TV sets. It's only for a couple of years manufacturers
are paying attention to better sound reproduction. Many of us are having
terrible reproduction quality and still enjoy the moving pictures.

Cost and size precludes equipping TV sets with even half reasonable
speakers. That this hasn't occurred to you says much. Those interested in
decent quality from TV sound will have used the line level feed provided
from most TVs for about 30 years to feed an external sound system. Indeed
I used to modify sets to provide an isolated audio output in the days of
'live' chassis sets. But that requires some engineering knowledge rather
than the 'musician' approach.

--
*Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article l,
jaap wrote:
I shouldn't think many of us on this group use the sound system
supplied with a TV.

In my circle there's no one who has the tellie linked to his or her
hifi. I did on some occasions watching war movies because of the
impressive explosion sounds. Only got the pets and the wife upset :)

Says much about your circle, then. Good audio isn't just about sitting
down to listen to music. Some want it for other things too.

--
*All men are idiots, and I married their King.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article l, jaap
wrote:


I got to this opinion speaking with fellow musiclovers, who share a
passion for the best obtainable. Most got tube amps under 5W per
channel, some built their own, often accomplished by single driver
speakers.

Ah, so 'the best' means soft clipping to alter the sounds in ways you
prefer. I see.


How often do you drive your amps into clipping?

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article l, jaap
wrote:


I might be wrong but is 'HiFi' not invented as a marketing trick?

Was it? Can you give the evidence you have for that?

I have assumed that - in English - it meant 'High Fidelity'. With an
amplifier this means that for audio signals the output is an
accurately
scaled version of the input. Hence the term 'amplifier'. :-)

I
recall a hip 1958 ad from Philips for that years new models table
radios
:)

Your evidence that Philips invented the term for this ad is?...

What's your standard of performance? Reading a 100Mhz scope? My
standard
is about music with as little as possible interference, whatever
technology, cosmetics, cyphers, brand or anything.

Mine also. Hence the above definitions of 'High Fidelity' and
'amplifier'.



On amp/one design somewhere in the world renders all other amps 'lower
fidelity' - how come it hasn't surfaced yet?

(Or do you know which one it is/was and are keeping it to yourself..??
:-)

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article l,
jaap wrote:
One of the problems with Digital audio is that only part of the actual
information is recorded.

And this differs from any analogue recording in which way?

For most people this 'sound' is good enough (as
most consumers don't want to pay for higher quality).

Now what are you discussing? Consumer audio as bought in a cheap package
from a chain store or the best on the market? Or would you compare a
Trabant to a Rolls Royce? After all they can both carry you from A to B.

Have you ever
compared a recording on a Telefunken M10 to your favorite CD or DVD?

As it happens I have compared both analogue and digital masters to the
consumer end product and in 99% of cases none is identical. This is
because the domestic product goes through an additional stage called
mastering. Which is designed to 'enhance' the master to make it more
commercial.

What is far more revealing is to compare the analogue master to the LP
produced from it. No argument there - they sound totally different...

--
*They call it PMS because Mad Cow Disease was already taken.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
I run two parallel systems: 100 SS Watts into 82 (84?) dB speakers and 8
or 9 valve Watts into high 90s speaker - the valve setup blows the other
one away on the *loudness* front!!

Define loudness as you mean it.

--
*The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article l,
jaap wrote:
I fully agree equipment needs to be measured. Foolish thing is, we
(scientifically) have an incomplete picture of audio. It seems there's
no need for so we settle for 'as good as it gets' with digital junk.
Differences that can't be measured do not exist because they can't be
measured. That's why so many 'voodoo' accessories are for sale.

Since you are obviously a vinyl lover, can you explain why on most of my
large collection of LPs there is a very noticeable change in audio quality
between the start and end of the LP?

--
*Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article l,
jaap wrote:
Don don't be offended, I won't either. The logic behind colorations
associated with cables and capacitors are explicable by electrical
properties. I can hear the difference between five or six cables, even
more capacitors (I have hundreds to play with and I do!) and so can you
(I presume). Never heard from James Randi but when we meet I'll buy you
a drink, as many as you need to forget your equipment and hard obtained
knowledge. Then we have a (blind) test listening to beautiful music.

Then if you can truly hear these differences a fortune - and the esteem of
millions - awaits you. Unfortunately, you have to *prove* you can here
that difference in an accepted scientific way. Snake oil salesmen
throughout the ages have made money by claiming such things without proof.

Best regards from the home of the worlds largest audio equipment
producing company ever.

Philips? Not exactly renown for top end audio equipment. Apart from the
co-development of the CD far more interested in the mass market than
quality.

--
*When you've seen one shopping centre you've seen a mall*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article l,
jaap wrote:
I fully agree equipment needs to be measured. Foolish thing is, we
(scientifically) have an incomplete picture of audio. It seems
there's
no need for so we settle for 'as good as it gets' with digital junk.
Differences that can't be measured do not exist because they can't be
measured. That's why so many 'voodoo' accessories are for sale.

Since you are obviously a vinyl lover, can you explain why on most of
my
large collection of LPs there is a very noticeable change in audio
quality
between the start and end of the LP?


Sure, you've obviously got *no idea* how to set up a
turntable/tonearm/cartridge.....




--
*Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article l,
jaap wrote:
Don don't be offended, I won't either. The logic behind colorations
associated with cables and capacitors are explicable by electrical
properties. I can hear the difference between five or six cables, even
more capacitors (I have hundreds to play with and I do!) and so can you
(I presume). Never heard from James Randi but when we meet I'll buy you
a drink, as many as you need to forget your equipment and hard obtained
knowledge. Then we have a (blind) test listening to beautiful music.

Then if you can truly hear these differences a fortune - and the esteem of
millions - awaits you. Unfortunately, you have to *prove* you can here
that difference in an accepted scientific way. Snake oil salesmen
throughout the ages have made money by claiming such things without proof.

Best regards from the home of the worlds largest audio equipment
producing company ever.

Philips? Not exactly renown for top end audio equipment. Apart from the
co-development of the CD far more interested in the mass market than
quality.

Dave, have you already forgotten DCC?

S.

--
http://audiopages.googlepages.com

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
I run two parallel systems: 100 SS Watts into 82 (84?) dB speakers
and 8
or 9 valve Watts into high 90s speaker - the valve setup blows the
other
one away on the *loudness* front!!

Define loudness as you mean it.


OK, as I mean it: All my sources are routed through an SS control amp
which has two 'pre outs' - one goes to a valve power amp with a volume
control on my Lowthers, the other goes to an SS power amp (no volume
control on the inputs I'm using) on multiway TLs. To match any given
'sound level' at the same distance (loudness) I have to *turn down* the
volume control on the valve amp - say about a third of the way from full
volume. IOW, with both power amps at max volume (no attenuation),
switching from the SS to the valves (even only 9 Watts' worth) results
in a tremendous increase in loudness from the valves/horns.

Does that do it for you??




--
*The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote


What is far more revealing is to compare the analogue master to the LP
produced from it. No argument there - they sound totally different...


What has the taste of roast beef got to do with the taste of dead cow?



--
*They call it PMS because Mad Cow Disease was already taken.


Ooh!! Another one! Have you turned up the 'relevancy settings' or
summat??



Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Since you are obviously a vinyl lover, can you explain why on most of
my
large collection of LPs there is a very noticeable change in audio
quality
between the start and end of the LP?


Sure, you've obviously got *no idea* how to set up a
turntable/tonearm/cartridge.....

I was probably setting up quality arms and cartridges in the days you
bopped to your Dansette. And if you've not noticed an LP quality
deteriorating as it nears the end it says much about your ears and or
equipment.

--
*OK, so what's the speed of dark? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article ,
Serge Auckland wrote:
Philips? Not exactly renown for top end audio equipment. Apart from the
co-development of the CD far more interested in the mass market than
quality.

Dave, have you already forgotten DCC?

Hardly - since I've got one somewhere. But Philips were more about
inventing a standard to get the royalties from it than actually making the
highest quality equipment to use that standard. Compact Cassette being a
prime example - they actually tried to prevent improvements to the format.

--
*I brake for no apparent reason.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Define loudness as you mean it.


OK, as I mean it: All my sources are routed through an SS control amp
which has two 'pre outs' - one goes to a valve power amp with a volume
control on my Lowthers, the other goes to an SS power amp (no volume
control on the inputs I'm using) on multiway TLs. To match any given
'sound level' at the same distance (loudness) I have to *turn down* the
volume control on the valve amp - say about a third of the way from full
volume. IOW, with both power amps at max volume (no attenuation),
switching from the SS to the valves (even only 9 Watts' worth) results
in a tremendous increase in loudness from the valves/horns.

Does that do it for you??

Heh heh. It just shows your complete lack of understanding of basic
electronics.

Bet you look at car speedos too to see which is the fastest...

--
*The most wasted day of all is one in which we have not laughed.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
--
*They call it PMS because Mad Cow Disease was already taken.


Ooh!! Another one! Have you turned up the 'relevancy settings' or
summat??



Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


I had hoped with your new Vista operating system that you boasted about
earlier you might have learned how to use the software...

--
*Born free - taxed to death *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Since you are obviously a vinyl lover, can you explain why on most
of
my
large collection of LPs there is a very noticeable change in audio
quality
between the start and end of the LP?


Sure, you've obviously got *no idea* how to set up a
turntable/tonearm/cartridge.....

I was probably setting up quality arms and cartridges in the days you
bopped to your Dansette.


Supposition and conjecture as always (your SOP) - I never owned a
Dansette...

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Define loudness as you mean it.


OK, as I mean it: All my sources are routed through an SS control amp
which has two 'pre outs' - one goes to a valve power amp with a
volume
control on my Lowthers, the other goes to an SS power amp (no volume
control on the inputs I'm using) on multiway TLs. To match any given
'sound level' at the same distance (loudness) I have to *turn down*
the
volume control on the valve amp - say about a third of the way from
full
volume. IOW, with both power amps at max volume (no attenuation),
switching from the SS to the valves (even only 9 Watts' worth)
results
in a tremendous increase in loudness from the valves/horns.

Does that do it for you??

Heh heh. It just shows your complete lack of understanding of basic
electronics.


You asked me to describe (compative) loudness as I meant it - I did. You
want to twist that (incorrectly, as ever) into me not knowing the
'electronics' involved, be my guest...

(In any case, I have often stated that my knowledge of electronics is at
the 'it's a capacitor if has the phrase "not a resistor" stamped on it'
level and yet I am able to build or repair electronics equipment, if and
when I want....??)

Get a life (or a job) Plowie.....



Bet you look at car speedos too to see which is the fastest...


I thought Speedos were swimming trunks...??



--
*The most wasted day of all is one in which we have not laughed.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
--
*They call it PMS because Mad Cow Disease was already taken.


Ooh!! Another one! Have you turned up the 'relevancy settings' or
summat??



Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


I had hoped with your new Vista operating system that you boasted
about
earlier you might have learned how to use the software...


That'll be the day....




--
*Born free - taxed to death *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Sure, you've obviously got *no idea* how to set up a
turntable/tonearm/cartridge.....

I was probably setting up quality arms and cartridges in the days you
bopped to your Dansette.


Supposition and conjecture as always (your SOP) - I never owned a
Dansette...

Merely countering your conjecture that I have no idea about setting up an
arm/cartridge combination with another, dear Keith.

But answer the main point. Are you stating you have never heard a
difference in quality between the start and end of an LP - on the most
perfectly set up record player?

--
*Sleep with a photographer and watch things develop

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
(In any case, I have often stated that my knowledge of electronics is at
the 'it's a capacitor if has the phrase "not a resistor" stamped on it'
level and yet I am able to build or repair electronics equipment, if and
when I want....??)

Good grief.

--
*Oh, what a tangled website we weave when first we practice *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Sure, you've obviously got *no idea* how to set up a
turntable/tonearm/cartridge.....

I was probably setting up quality arms and cartridges in the days
you
bopped to your Dansette.


Supposition and conjecture as always (your SOP) - I never owned a
Dansette...

Merely countering your conjecture that I have no idea about setting up
an
arm/cartridge combination with another, dear Keith.


No, you have provided enough evidence on this group to make that a
certainty...



But answer the main point.


Say 'please'....



Are you stating you have never heard a
difference in quality between the start and end of an LP - on the most
perfectly set up record player?

--
*Sleep with a photographer and watch things develop

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
(In any case, I have often stated that my knowledge of electronics is
at
the 'it's a capacitor if has the phrase "not a resistor" stamped on
it'
level and yet I am able to build or repair electronics equipment, if
and
when I want....??)

Good grief.



My amps work (better than some made by *experts* it would appear) and so
do my repairs...

Deal with it....





--
*Oh, what a tangled website we weave when first we practice *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Bob Latham" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Since you are obviously a vinyl lover, can you explain why on most of
my
large collection of LPs there is a very noticeable change in audio
quality between the start and end of the LP?

Have you done a double blind test? You need to get the same track
pressed
at 2 or 3 places on different discs at the same amplitude and then
double
blind listen.

Okay, I know it happens in theory but I never noticed when I listened
for
it.



Neither has Plowie - he's just bull****ting...

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Sure, you've obviously got *no idea* how to set up a
turntable/tonearm/cartridge.....

I was probably setting up quality arms and cartridges in the days
you
bopped to your Dansette.


Supposition and conjecture as always (your SOP) - I never owned a
Dansette...

Merely countering your conjecture that I have no idea about setting up
an arm/cartridge combination with another, dear Keith.


No, you have provided enough evidence on this group to make that a
certainty...

Have I? Examples? Or does the fact I hear distortion on LPs that you
obviously don't lead you to think it's my player that's at fault?



But answer the main point.


Say 'please'....

Certainly not.


Are you stating you have never heard a difference in quality between
the start and end of an LP - on the most perfectly set up record
player?

Your lack of reply speaks volumes.

--
*Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
(In any case, I have often stated that my knowledge of electronics is
at
the 'it's a capacitor if has the phrase "not a resistor" stamped on
it'
level and yet I am able to build or repair electronics equipment, if
and
when I want....??)

Good grief.



My amps work (better than some made by *experts* it would appear) and so
do my repairs...

I'd need a definition of 'work' too. By your definition of loudness it
might provide a few laughs too.

Although how you manage to repair anything without being able to identify
component values defeats me.

Deal with it....

I only hope you're not repairing things for others. Too many fires around
already.

--
*I don't work here. I'm a consultant

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article ,
Bob Latham wrote:
Since you are obviously a vinyl lover, can you explain why on most of
my large collection of LPs there is a very noticeable change in audio
quality between the start and end of the LP?

Have you done a double blind test? You need to get the same track pressed
at 2 or 3 places on different discs at the same amplitude and then double
blind listen.

Why would you need a double blind test on a 'feature' that is so obvious?

Okay, I know it happens in theory but I never noticed when I listened for
it.

Perhaps you do need to listen for it.

--
*There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

On 2007-05-14, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article l, jaap
wrote:
I got to this opinion speaking with fellow musiclovers, who share a
passion for the best obtainable. Most got tube amps under 5W per
channel, some built their own, often accomplished by single driver
speakers.

Ah, so 'the best' means soft clipping to alter the sounds in ways you
prefer. I see. ...

As usual, it depends on details. For 5W (+7 dBW) driving rather
sensitive (but available) conventional speakers of 94 dBA/W sensitivity
you get unclipped peaks up to 101 dBA at 1 metre and maybe 95 dBA at
the listening position.

This still isn't enough for reproducing big orchestral (let alone rock
concert) peak levels as experienced in positions close to the front of
a concert hall. However for more sedate orchestral music it's possibly
enough. Of course occasional soft clipping may be acceptable to
some ears.

Then if you go for horns the peak levels can be much better. However, I
don't know about the sound of horns personally, having never heard a pair.

(My own philosphy is to avoid cliping as much as possible: My target is
at least 110 dBA capability at 1 metre before clipping - about 104 dBA
at the listening position - which is possibly still not quite enough
for Wagner but I'm sure the neighbours appreciate that).

--
John Phillips

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Sure, you've obviously got *no idea* how to set up a
turntable/tonearm/cartridge.....

I was probably setting up quality arms and cartridges in the
days
you
bopped to your Dansette.


Supposition and conjecture as always (your SOP) - I never owned a
Dansette...

Merely countering your conjecture that I have no idea about setting
up
an arm/cartridge combination with another, dear Keith.


No, you have provided enough evidence on this group to make that a
certainty...

Have I? Examples? Or does the fact I hear distortion on LPs that you
obviously don't lead you to think it's my player that's at fault?


You're the one who's *digging*....




But answer the main point.


Say 'please'....

Certainly not.


Fine..

rest disregarded

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
(In any case, I have often stated that my knowledge of electronics
is
at
the 'it's a capacitor if has the phrase "not a resistor" stamped
on
it'
level and yet I am able to build or repair electronics equipment,
if
and
when I want....??)

Good grief.



My amps work (better than some made by *experts* it would appear) and
so
do my repairs...

I'd need a definition of 'work' too. By your definition of loudness it
might provide a few laughs too.


Get 'em while you can, Plowie - I'm nearly completely transferred to the
Nuvistor laptop. I can't see me hanging around in here once this machine
is retired - too damn tiresome on a laptop screen, not to mention the
****ty little keyboard...



Although how you manage to repair anything without being able to
identify
component values defeats me.

Deal with it....

I only hope you're not repairing things for others. Too many fires
around
already.


That remark shows how poorly you comprehend my posts and renders further
discussion with you *absolutely pointless*!!

(Which, of course, is no surprise given that you are absolutely
pointless yourself....)

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"jaap" wrote in message
ll.nl

Just an opinion: history shows that despite 'progress'
amplification quality diminishes every decade. Don't
believe you can't do without this new class. A good
system dating from 1960 or 1970 or 1980 will beat any
plastic rubbish -whatever class- dating from 2007.

Interesting opinion, but what is it based on?

Sighted evaluation, no doubt.

Modern systems are louder, distort less, have wider bandwidth
and less noise than 1960s or 1970s systems, but haven't
improved to any great extent since the '80s. However,
they certainly haven't diminished.

Loudspeaker price/performance has definately improved in the past 20 years.
Absolute performance has improved as well.

The other day I demonstrated a nice turntable setup to
someone who had listened solely to digital audio. She
was surprised by the reality coming from old gear,
despite S/N THD and whatever cyphers modern stuff tries
to sell to the public.

Urban legend or the result of imposition on an unqualified listener.

Of course old gear is capable of sounding good, but so
is modern gear, and for relatively much less money,
size, power consumption and improved reliability.

Digital done well provide sound quality that goes where analog never even
pretended to go.

My opinion is based on human hearing and not on the
momentary technological approach from a-musical tecchies.

It's based on sentimentality and prejudice.

I got to this opinion speaking with fellow musiclovers,
who share a passion for the best obtainable.

Music lovers who have a passion for the best possible have a passion for the
best music obtainable, not the hippest retro-technology possible.

Most got
tube amps under 5W per channel, some built their own,
often accomplished by single driver speakers.

No way this sort of ilk can re-create realistic, broadband sounds

Modern equipment is expensive compared to good used
quality parts.

Nonsense.

The latter will probably outlast the
former by decades because of the poor quality parts used
these days.

No doubt there is cheap throw-away gear on the market. But there is some
incredibly good stuff kicking around as well.

Agreed, ancient low budget equipment belongs on the
scrapyard.

Agreed.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Keith G" wrote in message

"jaap" wrote

As for the orchestra which is in need of 10 or more
watts to be reproduced correctly, this is again a (1970)
sales story. Right now I am listening through a 1.5 watt
amplifier giving me more than enough decibells to feed
the 4x6 meter room. Hardrock or orchestra, no problem.
The problem is with the loudspeakers, not having made
serious progress since 1960.

I run two parallel systems: 100 SS Watts into 82 (84?) dB
speakers and 8 or 9 valve Watts into high 90s speaker -
the valve setup blows the other one away on the
*loudness* front!!

No prejudice there.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
(In any case, I have often stated that my knowledge of electronics
is at the 'it's a capacitor if has the phrase "not a resistor"
stamped on it' level and yet I am able to build or repair
electronics equipment, if and when I want....??)

Good grief.



My amps work (better than some made by *experts* it would appear) and
so do my repairs...

I'd need a definition of 'work' too. By your definition of loudness it
might provide a few laughs too.


Get 'em while you can, Plowie - I'm nearly completely transferred to the
Nuvistor laptop. I can't see me hanging around in here once this
machine is retired - too damn tiresome on a laptop screen, not to
mention the ****ty little keyboard...

I'm sure this means something to you. Unfortunately not to me.



Although how you manage to repair anything without being able to
identify component values defeats me.

Deal with it....

I only hope you're not repairing things for others. Too many fires
around already.


That remark shows how poorly you comprehend my posts and renders further
discussion with you *absolutely pointless*!!

Do you ever read what you write? I'd suggest you try again - it's at the
top of this post. If you can't tell a resistor from a capacitor you should
stick to low voltage battery operated equipment. Valve equipment fiddled
with by the totally unskilled can be a fire risk.

--
*How do you tell when you run out of invisible ink? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


I own a Marantz Model 18 Receiver, dating from 1968. It originally cost
US$1,200.00 and was the most power receiver on the planet, back then. For
it's time, it was quite a sophisticated product, employing full
complementary silicon outputs, relay protection system and other nifty
stuff. It was critically appraised by reviewers at the time and when I
purchased mine (ca: 1977) I was stunned at how much better it sounded
than many contemporary amplifiers of similar (60 Watts) or even more
power. Just for yuks, I recently compared it to a more modern Marantz
amplifier (cost around AUS$1,000.00). No comparison. The modern amp was
somewhat better sounding. And, allowing for inflation, the modern amp was
MUCH less expensive. Don't even get me started on loudspeakers. The
technology for designing speakers has improved in leaps and bounds over
the last 40 years.



S'funny, we keep getting told how 'good amps' don't have a sound....???

**Because that is a fact. The ideal amplifier has no 'sound' of it's own. No
amplifier is ideal.


Speaker improvements? Try getting hold of a pair of cheap, 30 year old
Tannoys/Rogers/Quads/KEFs, just for starters....

**I have. Except for the Quads, they're shockers. Every single one. And, WRT
the modern Quads, the old ones have severe limitations.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote


I own a Marantz Model 18 Receiver, dating from 1968. It originally cost
US$1,200.00 and was the most power receiver on the planet, back then. For
it's time, it was quite a sophisticated product, employing full
complementary silicon outputs, relay protection system and other nifty
stuff. It was critically appraised by reviewers at the time and when I
purchased mine (ca: 1977) I was stunned at how much better it sounded
than many contemporary amplifiers of similar (60 Watts) or even more
power. Just for yuks, I recently compared it to a more modern Marantz
amplifier (cost around AUS$1,000.00). No comparison. The modern amp was
somewhat better sounding. And, allowing for inflation, the modern amp was
MUCH less expensive. Don't even get me started on loudspeakers. The
technology for designing speakers has improved in leaps and bounds over
the last 40 years.



S'funny, we keep getting told how 'good amps' don't have a sound....???

Speaker improvements? Try getting hold of a pair of cheap, 30 year old
Tannoys/Rogers/Quads/KEFs, just for starters....

**Actually, 30 years is too tight a limitation. I did say 40 years. I say
this, because I modded a pair of B&W DM7-II speakers a few years back. After
replacing the old caps and inductors, they sounded very good indeed. They
employed many of the characteristics valued in modern speakers. They STILL
sound bloody good.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

how good are class D amplifiers?
 

"jaap" wrote in message
ll.nl...
Serge Auckland wrote:
jaap wrote:
honestguvnor schreef:
On May 11, 10:07 pm, max graff wrote:
I know that class A is the best in amplification however attaining
that level at higher wattage is only hypothetical.

This is not a wise statement. I am sure you will find quite a few
readers prepared to bet you cannot hear the difference between a
reasonable class A amplifier and a reasonable class AB driving a
reasonable loudspeaker.

I want to know what and how good is the supposed class D
amplification.

This is a good question (assuming "digital" amplifier of whatever
class and audibly neutral under normal conditions) . I do not know the
answer and given the absence of any reliable consumer audio
publications and the absence of reasonable specifications from the
manufacturers it is not obvious to me where to look for an answer.

Obviously one could perform experiments oneself but that would imply a
pretty awesome loss of basic technical knowledge about the performance
of consumer audio in these broadband www days.

Anyone?


Just an opinion: history shows that despite 'progress' amplification
quality diminishes every decade. Don't believe you can't do without this
new class. A good system dating from 1960 or 1970 or 1980 will beat any
plastic rubbish -whatever class- dating from 2007.

Interesting opinion, but what is it based on? Modern systems are louder,
distort less, have wider bandwidth and less noise than 1960s or 1970s
systems, but haven't improved to any great extent since the '80s.
However, they certainly haven't diminished.



The other day I demonstrated a nice turntable setup to someone who had
listened solely to digital audio. She was surprised by the reality
coming from old gear, despite S/N THD and whatever cyphers modern stuff
tries to sell to the public.

Of course old gear is capable of sounding good, but so is modern gear,
and for relatively much less money, size, power consumption and improved
reliability.

S.

Hi Serge,

My opinion is based on human hearing and not on the momentary
technological approach from a-musical tecchies. I got to this opinion
speaking with fellow musiclovers, who share a passion for the best
obtainable. Most got tube amps under 5W per channel, some built their own,
often accomplished by single driver speakers.

**There is little anyone can do for seriously deluded individuals. Single
driver speakers (outside electrostatics) are utterly appalling.


Modern equipment is expensive compared to good used quality parts.

**You're not comparing apples with apples. Compare new with new. Modern
equipment offers better performance, better reliability, for the same cost
(inflation adjusted).

The
latter will probably outlast the former by decades because of the poor
quality parts used these days.

**Complete ********. Dollar for Dollar, modern components are much better
than older parts. Just examine a modern plastic potentiometer and compare it
to a carbon type. Same deal with capacitors, resistors and transistors. The
ONLY products which are inferior are valves (Chinese) and output
transformers, since the guys who used to build these things are dead.

Agreed, ancient low budget equipment belongs on the scrapyard.

**Complete ********. As service manager for Marantz Australia, during the
1970s, I was privy to some disturbing reliability reports. Products built
using early plastic pack output devices (ca: 1973-5) were suffering failure
rates approaching 100% during the three year warranty period. Modern plastic
pack devices now approach the reliability figures of hermetically sealed
steel cases devices.


--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com