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http://krakow.msnbc.msn.com:80/archi...29/338888.aspx

"There's a good reason for this. In addition to what people remember as the
bad things that LPs provide (scratches, clicks and pops) vinyl discs have
lots of good things going for them. LPs contain close to 100-percent of the
uncompressed music information as originally recorded. CDs contain only
about half of that recorded information. And compressed music files are
left with only a small percentage of the information that's on a CD."

With all due respect to Gary Krakow, he seems to be flaunting his ignorance
of the relevant technologies. I understand that Gary wrote for Stereophile
once upon a time. I don't think that even John Atkinson would tolerate this
kind of technical error, heavy vinylista advertising in Stereophile
notwithstanding.

Information theory (which Gary is obviously appealing to when he says "music
information") states that information can be quantified, based on the
product of bandwidth and dynamic range.

For example, an analog or digital channel with 6 dB more dynamic range is
capable of passing twice as much information. An analog or digital channel
with twice the bandwidth is capable of passing twice as much information.

Applying the most generous weighting factors will allow the claim that the
LP format is capable of about 75 dB dynamic range. In the real world,
disappointing dynamic ranges of even 45 dB are not unheard of when vinyl is
in play.

The CD format is capable of more like 95 dB dynamic range, even when judged
by a stiffer standard - unweighted noise. The clear advantage goes to the
CD format, and by a factor of 10 or more.

BTW, my analysis ignores the fact that LPs are prone to many scratches,
clicks, and pops while CDs are not. Krakow goes further than most
vinylistas in the direction of truth by admitting that these exist.
Scratches, clicks and pops do more than just distract you from the music,
they detract from dynamic range. A good scratch or pop may be louder than
the music, possibly leading to the mind-bending concept of negative dynamic
range.

Therefore, by the most pro-LP-biased of technical evaluations, the music
information leader is as always the CD format, and by a factor of at least
10. This means that if the LP format had far more bandwidth than the CD
format (which as a practical matter it does not) the LP format would need to
have 10 times more bandwidth than the CD format to break even.

It would be a different world if journalists who pretend to be technical
experts by dispensing technical advice had useful amounts of basic audio
engineering training.

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On Aug 30, 9:46 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Much obvious, but essentially meaningless stuff.

And those who like vinyl will continue to like it. And those who do
not will continue in their ways as well.

Nothing will change and nothing will be learned other than a
monumental waste of bandwidth will transpire if this thread gets legs.
Which it should not IMHO. Even the likes of the "commander" and Bret
should recognize that much and stay under their various rocks.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

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In article om, Peter Wieck wrote:
On Aug 30, 9:46 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Much obvious, but essentially meaningless stuff.

And those who like vinyl will continue to like it. And those who do
not will continue in their ways as well.


Not necessarily.

greg

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"Peter Wieck" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Aug 30, 9:46 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Much obvious, but essentially meaningless stuff.

And those who like vinyl will continue to like it. And those who do
not will continue in their ways as well.


Says it all and I will not add to this thread again other than to say,
having been cornered into the position of 'Sole Defender Of Vinyl' in
UKRA in the recent past, all I ever sought was that a *small few* should
not have had it banned as an 'inadmissible audio topic' - no-one ever
said it was *compulsory*....

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Uuf Duh! As we say in Minnesota, well, northern Minnesota, anywho ...

It is wonderful to see you monkeys raping other peoples' hobby
horses :) Such Elan! Perspicacity!

Meters can measure stuff very accurately, occasionally, if not every
last picosecond ... several were over before meters were even thunked
up, theoretically. Without meters, how can we know???

I listened to big, floor standing AM radio for years well below the
noise floor. Negative dynamic range? Sure, kids. OK, the ocassional
fake gun shot may have breached the surface, briefly ... unless there
was coincident events in the noise mix ;)

Noise is not meaningful, hence the term: noise.

Signal to Noise Ratio and Noise to Signal Ratio are both measureable,
but, if you are listening to the Lone Ranger and Tonto planning to
outwit those Bad Guys, friends, nobody gives a RAT's ass, you should
pardon ...

I remember the Lone Ranger. I know there was noise, but, frankly, I
forgot it. You guys never have any fun.

Just keep pulling it.

Happy Ears!
Al

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In article om,
Peter Wieck wrote:

On Aug 30, 9:46 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Much obvious, but essentially meaningless stuff.

And those who like vinyl will continue to like it. And those who do
not will continue in their ways as well.

Nothing will change and nothing will be learned other than a
monumental waste of bandwidth will transpire if this thread gets legs.
Which it should not IMHO. Even the likes of the "commander" and Bret
should recognize that much and stay under their various rocks.

I like them both, the LP has the edge in the information carrying
capacity of the jacket, while the CD has the edge in convenience.


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/

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On Aug 30, 1:38 pm, John Byrns wrote:

I like them both, the LP has the edge in the information carrying
capacity of the jacket, while the CD has the edge in convenience.

Exactly. It is permitted to "like them both". And even analog tape,
both via the ubiquitous A77 and even ~~SHUDDER~~ cassette or 8-Track.
I do own the mandatory A77, of course. A road-deck as it happens. It
even gets used on occasion. Also a few cassette decks, but never and
no 8-Tracks.

One would think that the sole-and-entire purpose of the hobby is to
have fun with it. Those that perforce must make a living at it, and
those who believe that they are God's Gift to the hobby and its
bleeding edge will see things differently of course. Writing for
myself, I am happy to putter about with what crosses my path, learning
a little as I go and spending a good deal of time being pleasantly
surprised at what I hear and what I do. And I can rest in the certain
knowledge that *nothing* I do will be cause for earth-shattering
revelations... the pressure is 'off' in other words.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Kutztown Space 338

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In article . com,
Peter Wieck wrote:

On Aug 30, 1:38 pm, John Byrns wrote:

I like them both, the LP has the edge in the information carrying
capacity of the jacket, while the CD has the edge in convenience.

Exactly. It is permitted to "like them both".

I certainly agree. I personally like them both.

Here we go again!
 

In article , John Byrns wrote:
In article om,
Peter Wieck wrote:

On Aug 30, 9:46 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Much obvious, but essentially meaningless stuff.

And those who like vinyl will continue to like it. And those who do
not will continue in their ways as well.

Nothing will change and nothing will be learned other than a
monumental waste of bandwidth will transpire if this thread gets legs.
Which it should not IMHO. Even the likes of the "commander" and Bret
should recognize that much and stay under their various rocks.

I like them both, the LP has the edge in the information carrying
capacity of the jacket, while the CD has the edge in convenience.

I thought there would be a lot of collectors of old jackets, but I have not
seen anything to my knowledge, except that I still have a stack of records,
and of course they are in the jackets.

greg

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On Aug 30, 12:59 pm, Peter Wieck wrote:
On Aug 30, 1:38 pm, John Byrns wrote:

I like them both, the LP has the edge in the information carrying
capacity of the jacket, while the CD has the edge in convenience.

Exactly. It is permitted to "like them both". And even analog tape,
both via the ubiquitous A77 and even ~~SHUDDER~~ cassette or 8-Track.
I do own the mandatory A77, of course. A road-deck as it happens. It
even gets used on occasion. Also a few cassette decks, but never and
no 8-Tracks.
I agree 8 Tracks are dog****. But, while the Revox was one of the
better consumer decks, why not ante up for a real one-an AG440 Ampex
maybe? Or even a 351.