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Testing capacitors
Hi,
Is it possible to test capacitors reliably without a capacitance meter? Marky P. |
Testing capacitors
"Marky P" wrote in message
... Hi, Is it possible to test capacitors reliably without a capacitance meter? If you want to test capacitors reliably you need an ESR (Effective series resistance) meter, not a capacitance one. Otherwise testing by substitution is your best bet. David. |
Testing capacitors
In article ,
Marky P wrote: Is it possible to test capacitors reliably without a capacitance meter? A 'capacitance meter' doesn't really test caps. For electrolytics you need an ESR meter. They're fairly expensive so probably the best means of testing is substitution. -- *If at first you do succeed, try not to look too astonished. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Testing capacitors
"Marky P" Is it possible to test capacitors reliably without a capacitance meter? ** No * ONE * test ( or cap tester) will establish that a capacitor is perfectly OK, however, if a cap fails even one important test - is IS faulty. Different types of caps have different electrical characteristics, ie electros are very different from plastic film or ceramic types - so the tests you do must suit the type of cap. ...... Phil |
Testing capacitors
"David Looser" "Marky P" Is it possible to test capacitors reliably without a capacitance meter? If you want to test capacitors reliably you need an ESR (Effective series resistance) meter, not a capacitance one. ** That only applies to electrolytic caps - plus the name is "equivalent series resistance". Plus an ESR meter will NOT find electro caps that have excessive leakage, de-polarised or even become short circuit. Capacitance meters are basically only handy when you have caps with no markings, ambiguous markings or an unknown colour code. ...... Phil |
Testing capacitors
"Phil Allison" wrote in message
... "David Looser" "Marky P" Is it possible to test capacitors reliably without a capacitance meter? If you want to test capacitors reliably you need an ESR (Effective series resistance) meter, not a capacitance one. ** That only applies to electrolytic caps - True, but with modern equipment the vast majority of faulty capacitors are electrolytics. Of course if he was talking about pre-1960 equipment then leaky paper capacitors are almost a given. plus the name is "equivalent series resistance". Both terms are used. In this context they are equivalent because they effectively mean the same thing. Plus an ESR meter will NOT find electro caps that have excessive leakage, de-polarised or even become short circuit. Agreed, but these faults are readily apparent with normal testing methods. Capacitance meters are basically only handy when you have caps with no markings, ambiguous markings or an unknown colour code. Agreed. David. |
Testing capacitors
Marky P wrote:
Hi, Is it possible to test capacitors reliably without a capacitance meter? Marky P. By test, do you mean "is it working ok?" or do you want to measure the value accurately? For a quick and dirty test, just connect a multimeter on the ohms range. The needle should flick across to short circuit, then drop back towards high resistance. The time it takes to drop back is proportional to the value of the capacitor. If the needle ultimately drops back to open circuit, the cap is probably ok. For a more complete picture you need a proper capacitor that will do several things - measure the actual capacitance, put an appropriate voltage across it, measure the ESR and the leakage resistance. d |
Testing capacitors
"David Looser the Brain Dead Lying **** " Is it possible to test capacitors reliably without a capacitance meter? If you want to test capacitors reliably you need an ESR (Effective series resistance) meter, not a capacitance one. ** That only applies to electrolytic caps - True, but with modern equipment the vast majority of faulty capacitors... ** So ****ing what ? The OP never alluded to what sort of caps he wanted to test. So your assumption is 100% FALSE !!!!!!!! plus the name is "equivalent series resistance". Both terms are used. ** Complete ********. Plus an ESR meter will NOT find electro caps that have excessive leakage, de-polarised or even become short circuit. Agreed, ** So your assertion above is a 100% total pile of CRAP. Just like you - sunshine. ...... Phil |
Testing capacitors
"Don Pearce the Geriatric Fool " For a quick and dirty test, just connect a multimeter on the ohms range. The needle should flick across to short circuit, then drop back towards high resistance. The time it takes to drop back is proportional to the value of the capacitor. If the needle ultimately drops back to open circuit, the cap is probably ok. ** ROTFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!! Hey grand-dad !! Got any ****ing idea how long it is since " multimeters " had needles ?? Bet your pathetic old AVO has a nice BENT one - eh ? Why don't you **** the HELL off - grand dad - & spare the planet you dumb as dog **** WRONG advice. ....... Phil |
Testing capacitors
Phil Allison wrote:
"Don Pearce the Geriatric Fool " For a quick and dirty test, just connect a multimeter on the ohms range. The needle should flick across to short circuit, then drop back towards high resistance. The time it takes to drop back is proportional to the value of the capacitor. If the needle ultimately drops back to open circuit, the cap is probably ok. ** ROTFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!! Hey grand-dad !! Got any ****ing idea how long it is since " multimeters " had needles ?? Bet your pathetic old AVO has a nice BENT one - eh ? Why don't you **** the HELL off - grand dad - & spare the planet you dumb as dog **** WRONG advice. ...... Phil You don't have a multimeter with a needle? You are missing one of the best alignment tools anyone could own - and a handy capacitor tester of course. Go out and buy one now - it isn't a replacement for a DMM, but a very useful complement. d |
Testing capacitors
"Don Pearce Geriatric Fool " For a quick and dirty test, just connect a multimeter on the ohms range. The needle should flick across to short circuit, then drop back towards high resistance. The time it takes to drop back is proportional to the value of the capacitor. If the needle ultimately drops back to open circuit, the cap is probably ok. ** ROTFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!! Hey grand-dad !! Got any ****ing idea how long it is since " multimeters " had needles ?? Bet your pathetic old AVO has a nice BENT one - eh ? Why don't you **** the HELL off - grand dad - & spare the planet you dumb as dog **** WRONG advice. IMBECILE ...... Phil |
Testing capacitors
In article ,
Don Pearce wrote: You don't have a multimeter with a needle? You are missing one of the best alignment tools anyone could own - and a handy capacitor tester of course. Go out and buy one now - it isn't a replacement for a DMM, but a very useful complement. Absolutely. But you can't expect bar room 'experts' like our Phil to know such things... -- *The only difference between a rut and a grave is the depth. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Testing capacitors
Phil Allison wrote:
"Don Pearce Geriatric Fool " For a quick and dirty test, just connect a multimeter on the ohms range. The needle should flick across to short circuit, then drop back towards high resistance. The time it takes to drop back is proportional to the value of the capacitor. If the needle ultimately drops back to open circuit, the cap is probably ok. ** ROTFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!! Hey grand-dad !! Got any ****ing idea how long it is since " multimeters " had needles ?? Bet your pathetic old AVO has a nice BENT one - eh ? Why don't you **** the HELL off - grand dad - & spare the planet you dumb as dog **** WRONG advice. IMBECILE ..... Phil Try http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=25414 You really must learn to control that temper Roger |
Testing capacitors
"Marky P" wrote in message ... Hi, Is it possible to test capacitors reliably without a capacitance meter? Marky P. Yes, put your tongue across the contacts a few seconds after switching off. |
Testing capacitors
David Looser wrote: "Marky P" wrote in message ... Hi, Is it possible to test capacitors reliably without a capacitance meter? If you want to test capacitors reliably you need an ESR (Effective series resistance) meter, not a capacitance one. Otherwise testing by substitution is your best bet. David. Its possible measure the value of capacitance using a low Rout signal generator feeding a potentiometer in series with the capacitor with one lead grounded. A volt meter is used to measure signal voltage across the C. Set the signal gene at 10.0V sine wave at some chosen F. Alter the value of the series resistance until you see 7.07Vrms appear across the capacitor. Disconnect the pot without altering its resistance, then measure its resistance accurately. C in uF then can be calculated = 159,000 / ( R in ohms x frequency ) so say you had R = 5,000 ohms, and F = 1.0kHz, then C = .0318uF . You could also have an air cored inductor of known inductance, and parallel the C with the L, and feed it with a signal from a 10k resistance from the sig gene. Using an osciloscope, tune the gene F for the highest peak in resonance, known as Fo. Record Fo. C in uF = 25.351 x 1,000,000 / F in Hz squared x L in milliHenrys. Eg, if L = 100mH, F = 1kHz = 1,000 Hz, C = 0.251uF. There are other ways using an old fashioned bridge. ESR is measured in other ways, but it seems the OP wanted to know how to work out the C value without a C meter. Many cheap DVMs now sold measures C very well. But they don't always measure L very well, espcially iron cored items with variable L value at different F and V applied. Patrick Turner. |
Testing capacitors
Phil Allison wrote: "Marky P" Is it possible to test capacitors reliably without a capacitance meter? ** No * ONE * test ( or cap tester) will establish that a capacitor is perfectly OK, however, if a cap fails even one important test - is IS faulty. Different types of caps have different electrical characteristics, ie electros are very different from plastic film or ceramic types - so the tests you do must suit the type of cap. Indeed, and I forgot these valid points in my last post. Testing for leakage current can be done by applying dc voltage via a 100k to the cap and measuring the voltage drop across the 100k R over some long time. But the voltage across the cap must not exceed the value marked on the cap for all caps, and for electros, the cap voltage should not be less than 1/4 of the working Vdc marked on the cap. I think the OP mainly wanted the C value. Patrick Turner. ..... Phil |
Testing capacitors
"Patrick Turner" wrote in message
... ESR is measured in other ways, but it seems the OP wanted to know how to work out the C value without a C meter. Does it? the OP talked about "testing" a capacitor, not "measuring" it; that sounds to me more like someone who wanted to know whether a capacitor was faulty. Since the OP has remained silent since his first post what he actually wanted remains a mystery. David. |
Testing capacitors
Phil Allison wrote: "Don Pearce the Geriatric Fool " For a quick and dirty test, just connect a multimeter on the ohms range. The needle should flick across to short circuit, then drop back towards high resistance. The time it takes to drop back is proportional to the value of the capacitor. If the needle ultimately drops back to open circuit, the cap is probably ok. ** ROTFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!! Hey grand-dad !! Got any ****ing idea how long it is since " multimeters " had needles ?? Bet your pathetic old AVO has a nice BENT one - eh ? Why don't you **** the HELL off - grand dad - & spare the planet you dumb as dog **** WRONG advice. ...... Phil Calm down Phil. You'll give grandad a heart attack. The ohm test across a C does give some indication of the status of the C. If the cap is shorted, a DMM just shows a very low R number immediately. If its not shorted, and doesn't have a stored charge (that well might bend a meter needle in granpa's work shed), then the DMM will eventually read OL for most plastic caps at least after some time as the cap charges up with applied Vdc from the meter via the meter's series high output resistance. Most ohm meters produce a very low Vdc to test ohm values and a cap's integrity needs to be tested at a Vdc across the cap for quite some time and near the V rating of the cap, and when the temp is raised to near operational if need be and with a CRO connected across the cap to detect Vdc movements or intermittent noise/arcing in the cap. Patrick Turner. |
Testing capacitors
Don Pearce wrote: Phil Allison wrote: "Don Pearce the Geriatric Fool " For a quick and dirty test, just connect a multimeter on the ohms range. The needle should flick across to short circuit, then drop back towards high resistance. The time it takes to drop back is proportional to the value of the capacitor. If the needle ultimately drops back to open circuit, the cap is probably ok. ** ROTFLMFAO !!!!!!!!!! Hey grand-dad !! Got any ****ing idea how long it is since " multimeters " had needles ?? Bet your pathetic old AVO has a nice BENT one - eh ? Why don't you **** the HELL off - grand dad - & spare the planet you dumb as dog **** WRONG advice. ...... Phil You don't have a multimeter with a needle? You are missing one of the best alignment tools anyone could own - and a handy capacitor tester of course. Go out and buy one now - it isn't a replacement for a DMM, but a very useful complement. I have several analog and digital meters in my shed. But 99% of what i measure is done with a Fluke DMM. I got the analog meters for almost free at ham fests and dumpster bins. Some I have calibrated for voltage measurement using an opamp drive with diode in the shunt FB path so the meter reads logarithmically. These are then calibrated in up to 30dB each side of a centre idle point, making readings of speaker responses quite easy and accurate enough over 33 chosen filter Fo of the audio band. The signals measured are those recovered from a pink noise source fed to the speaker, and a mic signal amplified and filtered by a bandpass filter with Q = 12 at all F. Its an old fashioned thing I made before I got a PC. I have not got around to buying a Spectral analyser program to display speaker response immediately on a PC screen, and variably as you change the mic position, or alter a cross over component. But it tells me 90% of what I need to know about loudspeakers. And if the C values in crossovers were correct, or labelled correctly at the factory; sometimes you get old "100uF" caps but they measure say 52uF, but look perfect, and have not obviously dried out, and sometimes much more C is there than the amount on the can. But its never an accurate way to measure the C in crossovers, so see my other posts. Patrick Turner. d |
Testing capacitors
"Patrick Turner" Indeed, and I forgot these valid points in my last post. I think the OP mainly wanted the C value. ** Then it would indeed profit the good fellow - most greatly - to learn how to ****ING READ !!!!!!!!!!!! ........ Phil |
Testing capacitors
Don Pearce wrote: You don't have a multimeter with a needle? You are missing one of the best alignment tools anyone could own - and a handy capacitor tester of course. Go out and buy one now - it isn't a replacement for a DMM, but a very useful complement. Handy for measuring noise too due to the mechanical time constant. Noise tends to send DVMs nuts. Graham |
Testing capacitors
Phil Allison wrote: "Patrick Turner" Indeed, and I forgot these valid points in my last post. I think the OP mainly wanted the C value. ** Then it would indeed profit the good fellow - most greatly - to learn how to ****ING READ !!!!!!!!!!!! ....... Phil "The good fellow" ?? I didn't think there was one left... Patrick Turner |
Testing capacitors
On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:42:53 +0100, "David Looser"
wrote: "Patrick Turner" wrote in message ... ESR is measured in other ways, but it seems the OP wanted to know how to work out the C value without a C meter. Does it? the OP talked about "testing" a capacitor, not "measuring" it; that sounds to me more like someone who wanted to know whether a capacitor was faulty. Since the OP has remained silent since his first post what he actually wanted remains a mystery. David. Very sorry! I forgot made this post (someone over at alt.digital.tv remined me). I want to test for faulty caps. It's in a power supply unit in a 1980's professional multi-track tape recorder Marky P. |
Testing capacitors
On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:11:57 +0100, "Ian"
wrote: "Marky P" wrote in message .. . Hi, Is it possible to test capacitors reliably without a capacitance meter? Marky P. Yes, put your tongue across the contacts a few seconds after switching off. A bit more awkward when the caps are still on the board :-) Marky P. |
Testing capacitors
"Marky P" wrote in message
... On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:42:53 +0100, "David Looser" wrote: Since the OP has remained silent since his first post what he actually wanted remains a mystery. David. Very sorry! I forgot made this post (someone over at alt.digital.tv remined me). I want to test for faulty caps. It's in a power supply unit in a 1980's professional multi-track tape recorder Faulty capacitors in power supplies usually make themselves apparent by such problems as low voltage or excessive ripple on one or more of the output lines, or rather more obviously by leaking electrolyte, bulging seals etc. In view of the age of this unit your best bet is probably simply to replace any suspect capacitors rather than bothering to try and test them. David. |
Testing capacitors
In article ,
Marky P wrote: Very sorry! I forgot made this post (someone over at alt.digital.tv remined me). I want to test for faulty caps. It's in a power supply unit in a 1980's professional multi-track tape recorder Which one? If an analogue PS a faulty cap would usually just cause hum, etc. If switch mode you'll really need an ESR metre to check them. -- *It ain't the size, it's... er... no, it IS ..the size. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Testing capacitors
On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:47:49 +0100, "David Looser"
wrote: "Marky P" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:42:53 +0100, "David Looser" wrote: Since the OP has remained silent since his first post what he actually wanted remains a mystery. David. Very sorry! I forgot made this post (someone over at alt.digital.tv remined me). I want to test for faulty caps. It's in a power supply unit in a 1980's professional multi-track tape recorder Faulty capacitors in power supplies usually make themselves apparent by such problems as low voltage or excessive ripple on one or more of the output lines, or rather more obviously by leaking electrolyte, bulging seals etc. In view of the age of this unit your best bet is probably simply to replace any suspect capacitors rather than bothering to try and test them. David. Basically, there was a severe buzzing noise on the output and the fault was traced to the PSU supply not being stable. The caps were replaced and the problem was rectified. Well, within a couple of months the fault is back, and instead of paying silly prices to one of the very few tape machine repair guys around, my mate wanted me to fix it if I could find the faulty caps. The last repair cost £500. The tape machine is a Saturn Soundcraft, and aparently there is only one person in the country who can repair them (he lives in Bury St. Edmunds). Marky P. |
Testing capacitors
On Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:08:43 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Marky P wrote: Very sorry! I forgot made this post (someone over at alt.digital.tv remined me). I want to test for faulty caps. It's in a power supply unit in a 1980's professional multi-track tape recorder Which one? If an analogue PS a faulty cap would usually just cause hum, etc. If switch mode you'll really need an ESR metre to check them. As mentioned in the above post, it's a Saturn Soundcraft 24 track. Marky P. |
Testing capacitors
"Marky P" wrote in message
... Basically, there was a severe buzzing noise on the output and the fault was traced to the PSU supply not being stable. Is it a linear, or switch-mode? How many output rails are there? does the instability affect them all, or only one or two? The caps were replaced All of them? and the problem was rectified. Well, within a couple of months the fault is back, So probably not capacitors then, unless it's the ones that got missed last time. (Is the fault *exactly* the same?) Maybe the instability is the result of a broken PCB track, dry joint or poor connection somewhere that makes contact when it wants too, and the "cure" last time was due to the physical handling of the PSU causing this to make contact again, for a while. and instead of paying silly prices to one of the very few tape machine repair guys around, my mate wanted me to fix it if I could find the faulty caps. The last repair cost £500. The tape machine is a Saturn Soundcraft, and aparently there is only one person in the country who can repair them (he lives in Bury St. Edmunds). Unlikely. Unless the machine was designed on Saturn (or in Bury St Ed) any competent repair technician ought to be able repair it. David. |
Testing capacitors
Marky P wrote: On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:42:53 +0100, "David Looser" wrote: "Patrick Turner" wrote in message ... ESR is measured in other ways, but it seems the OP wanted to know how to work out the C value without a C meter. Does it? the OP talked about "testing" a capacitor, not "measuring" it; that sounds to me more like someone who wanted to know whether a capacitor was faulty. Since the OP has remained silent since his first post what he actually wanted remains a mystery. David. Very sorry! I forgot made this post (someone over at alt.digital.tv remined me). I want to test for faulty caps. It's in a power supply unit in a 1980's professional multi-track tape recorder Marky P. Try just replacing it with another of the right type. If the problem of noise or silence vanishes, maybe its the cap. Hire a tech to find out for you? every tech knows what to do about testing a cap for a fault/leakage and its been discussed many times here and else where. Reading the circuit should inform you of the Vdc across the cap and hum voltage, so if there is a lot of hum and Vdc is low, and there are hot parts, then maybe the circuit powered by the Vdc is drawing too much Idc. Take the wholeistic approach, or else put up with wrong diagnosies. Patrick Turner. |
Testing capacitors
Basically, there was a severe buzzing noise on the output and the fault was traced to the PSU supply not being stable. Is it a linear, or switch-mode? How many output rails are there? does the instability affect them all, or only one or two? The caps were replaced All of them? and the problem was rectified. Well, within a couple of months the fault is back, So probably not capacitors then, unless it's the ones that got missed last time. (Is the fault *exactly* the same?) Maybe the instability is the result of a broken PCB track, dry joint or poor connection somewhere that makes contact when it wants too, and the "cure" last time was due to the physical handling of the PSU causing this to make contact again, for a while. and instead of paying silly prices to one of the very few tape machine repair guys around, my mate wanted me to fix it if I could find the faulty caps. The last repair cost £500. The tape machine is a Saturn Soundcraft, and aparently there is only one person in the country who can repair them (he lives in Bury St. Edmunds). Unlikely. Unless the machine was designed on Saturn (or in Bury St Ed) any competent repair technician ought to be able repair it. Excatly what I thought. Mind you they do a very good line of condensers on the planet Metaluna. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Island_Earth -- Graham. %Profound_observation% |
Testing capacitors
"David Looser" wrote in message ... "Marky P" wrote in message ... Basically, there was a severe buzzing noise on the output and the fault was traced to the PSU supply not being stable. Is it a linear, or switch-mode? How many output rails are there? does the instability affect them all, or only one or two? The caps were replaced All of them? and the problem was rectified. Well, within a couple of months the fault is back, So probably not capacitors then, unless it's the ones that got missed last time. (Is the fault *exactly* the same?) Maybe the instability is the result of a broken PCB track, dry joint or poor connection somewhere that makes contact when it wants too, and the "cure" last time was due to the physical handling of the PSU causing this to make contact again, for a while. and instead of paying silly prices to one of the very few tape machine repair guys around, my mate wanted me to fix it if I could find the faulty caps. The last repair cost £500. The tape machine is a Saturn Soundcraft, and aparently there is only one person in the country who can repair them (he lives in Bury St. Edmunds). Unlikely. Unless the machine was designed on Saturn (or in Bury St Ed) any competent repair technician ought to be able repair it. David. What's wrong with Bury St Edmunds? My designs generally work....... S. -- http://audiopages.googlepages.com |
Testing capacitors
On Fri, 3 Oct 2008 21:28:09 +0100, "David Looser"
wrote: "Marky P" wrote in message .. . Basically, there was a severe buzzing noise on the output and the fault was traced to the PSU supply not being stable. Is it a linear, or switch-mode? How many output rails are there? does the instability affect them all, or only one or two? Unfortunately I haven't looked at it myself, so I don't know. The caps were replaced All of them? Again, I'm not sure. Wouldn't've thought so. and the problem was rectified. Well, within a couple of months the fault is back, So probably not capacitors then, unless it's the ones that got missed last time. (Is the fault *exactly* the same?) Maybe the instability is the result of a broken PCB track, dry joint or poor connection somewhere that makes contact when it wants too, and the "cure" last time was due to the physical handling of the PSU causing this to make contact again, for a while. and instead of paying silly prices to one of the very few tape machine repair guys around, my mate wanted me to fix it if I could find the faulty caps. The last repair cost £500. The tape machine is a Saturn Soundcraft, and aparently there is only one person in the country who can repair them (he lives in Bury St. Edmunds). Unlikely. Unless the machine was designed on Saturn (or in Bury St Ed) any competent repair technician ought to be able repair it. David. Marky P. |
Testing capacitors
"Marky P" wrote in
message Hi, Is it possible to test capacitors reliably without a capacitance meter? Yes, if you have some fairly precise reference parts, you can set up a capacitance bridge on the bench that allows you to measure capacitance and series R by indirect means. http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_12/5.html |
Testing capacitors
Phil Allison wrote:
True, but with modern equipment the vast majority of faulty capacitors... ** So ****ing what ? The OP never alluded to what sort of caps he wanted to test. So your assumption is 100% FALSE !!!!!!!! You know, when I see an outburst like this I always imagine the poster sat at the computer wearing his underwear and a straight jacket, typing by picking up a pencil in his teeth and dribbling everywhere. Either that or wearing a dress like the character "Anne" in the popular British comedy "Little Britain". -- Squirrel Solutions Ltd Tel: (01453) 845735 http://www.squirrelsolutions.co.uk/ Fax: (01453) 843773 Registered in England: 05877408 |
Testing capacitors
Glenn Richards wrote:
Phil Allison wrote: True, but with modern equipment the vast majority of faulty capacitors... ** So ****ing what ? The OP never alluded to what sort of caps he wanted to test. So your assumption is 100% FALSE !!!!!!!! You know, when I see an outburst like this I always imagine the poster sat at the computer wearing his underwear and a straight jacket, typing by picking up a pencil in his teeth and dribbling everywhere. Either that or wearing a dress like the character "Anne" in the popular British comedy "Little Britain". http://xkcd.com/386/ -- Nick |
Testing capacitors
"Glenn Richards" wrote in message
... Phil Allison wrote: True, but with modern equipment the vast majority of faulty capacitors... ** So ****ing what ? The OP never alluded to what sort of caps he wanted to test. So your assumption is 100% FALSE !!!!!!!! You know, when I see an outburst like this I always imagine the poster sat at the computer wearing his underwear and a straight jacket, typing by picking up a pencil in his teeth and dribbling everywhere. Either that or wearing a dress like the character "Anne" in the popular British comedy "Little Britain". And, as it turned out, my assumption was 100% correct! David. |
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