Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message

"Arny Krueger" wrote

I would say that AB is not a coincident pair.

http://www.wikirecording.org/AB_Ster...hone_Technique

Yet, according to Iain, it is the only technique entitled
to be called "co-incident pair".

Pretty strange.

I'd agree with you: MS is co-incident pair, XY is *definitely*
co-incident pair,
AB? nah, not really.

That's not just agreeing with me, but agreeing with general perceived wisdom
in the science and art of recording.

Whatever the Decca manual says.

Unfortunately, we're getting selective quotes from it.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in
message


Iain will admit from time to time that his betters at various of his
employers have surveyed his capabilities and been very careful to keep his
hands off of the recording equipment.

Will he? can't say I've seen it. Perhaps Iain would like to confirm that
statement (or not as the case may be).

He also admits that other than a few collectables that he keeps to
entertain visiting firemen with their appearance, he owns no audio gear.

So what? since when have big companies like Decca expected their employees
to provide their own recording equipment?

AIUI Iain mostly records "major
works" by big-name orchestras in recording studios, where
conditions are well controlled.

Actually, Iain does not do what most of us would call recording. His
involvement has been mostly err, administrative.

That's not the impression I get from reading this n.g. If Iain likes to
clarify his precise role then fine, but I don't think I'll take your word on
the subject.

Arny records live
performances of often little-known or new works by less
well-known or amateur musicians in a church.

Wrong again. I record in a number of churches and schools, not just one
church. Many of the works I record are well-known to people who are
engaged in education or religion. Many of them are modern - having been
written in the past 30 years or less.

Well OK, so your record in more than one church, I don't see how that makes
any difference to my point, nor that it justifies a "wrong again".

David.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in
message

Iain will admit from time to time that his betters at
various of his employers have surveyed his capabilities
and been very careful to keep his hands off of the
recording equipment.

Will he? can't say I've seen it. Perhaps Iain would like
to confirm that statement (or not as the case may be).

When things get too hot, Iain runs and hides. If you wish to be a one-man
Iain Churches defense league, be my guest. I've suffered with his gratuitous
attacks for several years across several newsgroups.

He also admits that other than a few collectables that
he keeps to entertain visiting firemen with their
appearance, he owns no audio gear.

So what? since when have big companies like Decca
expected their employees to provide their own recording
equipment?

I think that you will find that most serious professional recording
engineers can't leave their work at work, and maintain private collections
of recording gear that they use for various special occasions and an
occasional side job. It may not be as impressive or extensive as what they
have at work, but it is usually pretty credible.

AIUI Iain mostly records "major
works" by big-name orchestras in recording studios,
where conditions are well controlled.

Actually, Iain does not do what most of us would call
recording. His involvement has been mostly err,
administrative.

That's not the impression I get from reading this n.g.

Of course not. You're distracted by the sizzle. People who work with raw
meat every day know its smell and where to find it.

Note that there are two people here who do more than a little professional
recording and share a similar opinion of Iain. There's nothing like walking
the walk to teach you how to ferret out the posers. Not that I'm any great
shakes, but what I do is typical and credible. Iain won't give me that, and
puts on airs. AFAIK, everything he has said about life at Decca has appeared
in published articles over the years. Note that this is Usenet, and you
can't verify that he is who he says he is.

If Iain likes to clarify his precise role then fine, but I
don't think I'll take your word on the subject.

Be my guest.

Arny records live
performances of often little-known or new works by less
well-known or amateur musicians in a church.

Wrong again. I record in a number of churches and
schools, not just one church. Many of the works I
record are well-known to people who are engaged in
education or religion. Many of them are modern - having
been written in the past 30 years or less.

Well OK, so your record in more than one church,

Negative attitude and bias noted - in that you again completely ignore my
work in various educational settings. You don't have to like me, but you
might want to try to at least feign objectivity.

I don't
see how that makes any difference to my point, nor that
it justifies a "wrong again".

David, you didn't even get your story right the second time around, even
with the right answers posted right before you. That pretty well tells it
all. Like I said, hitch your wagon the Iain's star as early and often as
you'd like. That's about the worst thing for your personal credibility that
I could wish for you.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote

If you wish to be a one-man Iain Churches defense league, be my guest.

Having just crossed swords with Iain being a "one-man Iain Churches defense
league" is about the very last thing I am!


I think that you will find that most serious professional recording
engineers can't leave their work at work, and maintain private collections
of recording gear that they use for various special occasions and an
occasional side job. It may not be as impressive or extensive as what they
have at work, but it is usually pretty credible.

If you say so.


Negative attitude and bias noted -

Eh? sorry Arny but I see neither negative attitude nor bias in what I said.

in that you again completely ignore my work in various educational
settings. You don't have to like me, but you might want to try to at
least feign objectivity.

Arny, I'm *trying* to be objective! But it seems that unless I side with you
100% you will accuse me of bias and lacking objectivity. I'm reminded of the
fact that the BBC thinks it's being as politically neutral as it can be when
it gets equal numbers of accusations of bias from both sides of the
political divide. When you and Iain both attack me I'm probably being
reasonably objective.

I don't
see how that makes any difference to my point, nor that
it justifies a "wrong again".

David, you didn't even get your story right the second time around, even
with the right answers posted right before you. That pretty well tells it
all. Like I said, hitch your wagon the Iain's star as early and often as
you'd like. That's about the worst thing for your personal credibility
that I could wish for you

You mean because I didn't refer to your statement about recording in
schools? *that* is enough to justify that attack on me? - Streuth!

David.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Arny Krueger" whined:


Bugger! I'm trying very hard not to be here but I can't resist these two
posts!

(This one and Lucy 'Loser' Looser's stung reaction to a sudden
*Krooger-mauling*!! :-)




Note that there are two people here who do more than a little professional
recording


Whaaaat???


and share a similar opinion of Iain.


You and your pooch? :-)

Wot a larf! Wot a crock!


There's nothing like walking
the walk to teach you how to ferret out the posers.


Oh dear, I really don't believe this wattock is actually writing this!


Not that I'm any great
shakes,



Damn right you're not - not if this is anything to go by:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/showntell/HeejusDin.wav


but what I do is typical and credible.



No it sodding ain't, it's *outright* crap:

http://www.moirac.adsl24.co.uk/showntell/HeejusDin.wav



Iain won't give me that,



Oh dear, you can see where the Pooch gets it from, can'y you?

Dry yer eyes and stop whining, Arnee Baybee.



and
puts on airs. AFAIK, everything he has said about life at Decca has
appeared in published articles over the years. Note that this is Usenet,
and you can't verify that he is who he says he is.


Same goes for you and your pooch.


snip spontaneous Looser-bashing

(Which must have been a bit of a shock for him!! :-)

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote

If you wish to be a one-man Iain Churches defense league, be my guest.

Having just crossed swords with Iain being a "one-man Iain Churches
defense league" is about the very last thing I am!


I think that you will find that most serious professional recording
engineers can't leave their work at work, and maintain private
collections of recording gear that they use for various special occasions
and an occasional side job. It may not be as impressive or extensive as
what they have at work, but it is usually pretty credible.

If you say so.


Negative attitude and bias noted -

Eh? sorry Arny but I see neither negative attitude nor bias in what I
said.

in that you again completely ignore my work in various educational
settings. You don't have to like me, but you might want to try to at
least feign objectivity.

Arny, I'm *trying* to be objective! But it seems that unless I side with
you 100% you will accuse me of bias and lacking objectivity. I'm reminded
of the fact that the BBC thinks it's being as politically neutral as it
can be when it gets equal numbers of accusations of bias from both sides
of the political divide. When you and Iain both attack me I'm probably
being reasonably objective.

I don't
see how that makes any difference to my point, nor that
it justifies a "wrong again".

David, you didn't even get your story right the second time around, even
with the right answers posted right before you. That pretty well tells it
all. Like I said, hitch your wagon the Iain's star as early and often as
you'd like. That's about the worst thing for your personal credibility
that I could wish for you

You mean because I didn't refer to your statement about recording in
schools? *that* is enough to justify that attack on me? - Streuth!



Welcome to the real world, sonny - if you claw the wool from your eyes
you'll mebbe see who the *real arseholes* are in this group!

Now, I really must *flounce*!!

(****, that's so *ghey* it could only have come from Pucciwankapoof,
couldn't it? :-)

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
AFAIK, everything he has said about life at Decca has appeared
in published articles over the years. Note that this is Usenet, and you
can't verify that he is who he says he is.

I've no reason to doubt he is who he says. Just not sure of his claimed
professionalism when he denigrates other's work with such regularity.
The one thing you can be sure about when working in audio is that it is
impossible to be perfect all the time. Too many variables. And that a
technique which works well for one individual may not for another. Which
is what experience teaches you.

--
*Never test the depth of the water with both feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message
"Arny Krueger" wrote

If you wish to be a one-man Iain Churches defense
league, be my guest.

Having just crossed swords with Iain being a "one-man
Iain Churches defense league" is about the very last
thing I am!

I missed that.

I went back and looked for it.

Can't find it.

I think that you will find that most serious
professional recording engineers can't leave their work
at work, and maintain private collections of recording
gear that they use for various special occasions and an
occasional side job. It may not be as impressive or
extensive as what they have at work, but it is usually
pretty credible.

If you say so.

More negative attitude.

Negative attitude and bias noted -

Eh? sorry Arny but I see neither negative attitude nor
bias in what I said.

I explained it in the next paragraph.

in that you again completely ignore my work in various
educational settings. You don't have to like me, but
you might want to try to at least feign objectivity.

Arny, I'm *trying* to be objective!

Please try harder, if you wish to be convincing.

But it seems that
unless I side with you 100%

Just leave out the negative attitude and ignoring some facts and distorting
others.

you will accuse me of bias and lacking objectivity. I'm reminded of the
fact that
the BBC thinks it's being as politically neutral as it
can be when it gets equal numbers of accusations of bias
from both sides of the political divide. When you and
Iain both attack me I'm probably being reasonably
objective.

I do better.

I don't
see how that makes any difference to my point, nor that
it justifies a "wrong again".

David, you didn't even get your story right the second
time around, even with the right answers posted right
before you. That pretty well tells it all. Like I said,
hitch your wagon the Iain's star as early and often as
you'd like. That's about the worst thing for your
personal credibility that I could wish for you

You mean because I didn't refer to your statement about
recording in schools? *that* is enough to justify that
attack on me? - Streuth!

That, plus all the rest.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
(****, that's so *ghey* it could only have come from Pucciwankapoof,
couldn't it? :-)

You seem obsessed with this 'ghey' thing, Kitty. Perhaps it's time you
came out of the closet?

--
*Re-elect nobody

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
(****, that's so *ghey* it could only have come from Pucciwankapoof,
couldn't it? :-)

You seem obsessed with this 'ghey' thing, Kitty. Perhaps it's time you
came out of the closet?


Why, do you want a date???

You'd have to buy me dinner and a few drinks *and* pay my train fares both
ways!!

(Pucci, the Smoochie Poochie, eh? :-)


LOL!!





--
*Re-elect nobody

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Looser wrote:

There are all in one mics these days that use a cardiod and figure of
eight capsule - Sanken make one and I use them. Very convenient for some
things. Can be switched between M&S and AB.

Excellent: :-)

So go out and make us a hard-hitting well-balanced
big band recording with a single pair in any format you
choose. I won't hold my breath:-)

Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Iain will have much time for him since he can't read a score...


Not long ago you were sneering at the Tonmeister course,
and now underestimating the importance of musical training,
which opens doors which would otherwise remain firmly
closed to a boom op or a sound recordist.

But, it's interesting to see that Ned Ludd is alive and well
and living in S.London:-)


Some years ago, American musicologist Jimmy Coleman
said in a lectu "Learn your Bartok, Charles Ives, your
Gershwin, your Ellington, your Schoenberg and no-one
will expect you to stand out in the pouring rain with a
Nagra". If he had been lecturing to students in the UK,
he would probably have added Holst, RVW and Britten to that
list, but the message remains the same.

It's also pretty out of date - all that talk of DATs and Minidisc.

The recording media used is of little relevance,. The first
recordings of this type made by the BBC were on
disc at 78rpm. What was established then is still applicable
today.

Regards
Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote

Sorry, but that is just not the case. Ask any assistant engineer
to set you up a co-incidental pair (also commonly known as AB)
What you will get will loook

"Look"? Eh?


Yes. It will look different (compared with XY) if you observe
the way he has attached the mics to the t-bar at the top
of the stand.

and sound totally different

It will sound different to an experienced/discerning ear when
comparing this AB pair with an adjacent XY pair.
..
"Totally different"? Really?, "TOTALLY different"?

I am confident that, with a good music signal the difference in two
totally different topologies will be cleartly discernible, to
anyone experienced enough to know what to listen for.


Forget your preconceptions. Beg, steal, borrow or
(preferably) rent some equipment for a few days, and find
out for yourself the strengths and weaknesses of each
format.

It's a fascinating topic..

Regards
Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Please post a link to some hard-hitting big band recordings
made with a co-incidental or XY pair.

So what you're implying is.......

I am not "implying" anything, Dave
I am asking you to post a link to some
hard-hitting big band recordings made with a co-incidental
or XY pair. After extensive research, I have yet to find a
single one, so I look forward to your putting me right..


.....there's no point watching any big band live as
they're going to sound terrible?

What an absurd statement:-)

Most big band concerts these days, especially in prime
venues, depend on sound re-inforcement. So what you are
hearing is multi-microphone audio, which can, and
usually does, sound very good indeed. The crew go
to all this trouble because, when SR is needed. a
stereo pair just does not cut the mustard. and once you
start to add spot mics, whuich in itself is a compromise,
you might as well do the thing properly:-)


The last big band concert I attended in the UK was
at The Roundhouse in Camden. I counted 30 mics for
18 players, plus two DIs on string bass (which also
had a microphone) and electric guitar (ditto) so 32
channels in all for the band.

The saxophone section were all doubling,
(some tripling), on flutes, alto flutes, Bb clarinets,
Eb and bs clarinets. There was also quite a large
assortment of percussion and tuned percussion.

The sound was excellent and a feed was taken from
the desk for broadcast.

Yet in their heyday, only likely the
vocalist and some solos were amplified.

Even in the fifties, recorded concerts were
multi-mic, as photos of Ellington at Newport (1956)
and many Count Basie concerts of the same era
will testify.

I know your unwillingness to read books
or listen to recordings, Dave, so I won't
confuse you further with facts:-)
No more to say.

Regards
Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


Some years ago, American musicologist Jimmy Coleman
said in a lectu "Learn your Bartok, Charles Ives, your
Gershwin, your Ellington, your Schoenberg and no-one
will expect you to stand out in the pouring rain with a
Nagra".

Who's sneering now? This does seem to a one of your traits, Iain, to sneer
at those whose jobs you think are somehow inferior to yours. And what does a
*musicologist* know, or care, about field sound recording? It's a totally
different job from studio recording and has it's own challenges and rewards.
I doubt many wildlife sound recordists, for example, think they are only
doing that because they didn't learn their Bartok, Ives, Gershwin, Ellington
or Schoenberg.

David.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message ...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Please post a link to some hard-hitting big band
recordings made with a co-incidental or XY pair.

So what you're implying is.......

I am not "implying" anything, Dave
I am asking you to post a link to some
hard-hitting big band recordings made with a co-incidental
or XY pair. After extensive research, I have yet to find
a single one, so I look forward to your putting me right..


http://www.auldworks.com/bbrec2.htm

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Looser wrote:

There are all in one mics these days that use a cardiod and figure of
eight capsule - Sanken make one and I use them. Very convenient for
some things. Can be switched between M&S and AB.

Excellent: :-)

So go out and make us a hard-hitting well-balanced
big band recording with a single pair in any format you
choose. I won't hold my breath:-)

I take it since you can only balance a big band properly is by close
multi-micing you'd never heard one live? You don't know what you're
missing.

--
*I like cats, too. Let's exchange recipes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote

Sorry, but that is just not the case. Ask any assistant engineer
to set you up a co-incidental pair (also commonly known as AB)
What you will get will loook

"Look"? Eh?


Yes. It will look different (compared with XY) if you observe
the way he has attached the mics to the t-bar at the top
of the stand.


Yes of course it looks different (duh!), but so what, the listener isn't
looking is (s)he?

and sound totally different

It will sound different to an experienced/discerning ear when
comparing this AB pair with an adjacent XY pair.
.
"Totally different"? Really?, "TOTALLY different"?

I am confident that, with a good music signal the difference in two
totally different topologies will be cleartly discernible, to
anyone experienced enough to know what to listen for.

Yes I'm sure you are right. So in fact you are agreeing with me that the
word "totally" was totally wrong - thank you

Forget your preconceptions. Beg, steal, borrow or
(preferably) rent some equipment for a few days, and find
out for yourself the strengths and weaknesses of each
format.

What preconceptions? My only "preconception" (actually not a preconception
but based on real experience) is that multi-miked and subsequently mixed
down sounds less "real" than co-incident pair recorded directly to 2-track.
Oh and by "co-incident pair" I mean XY and MS.


It's a fascinating topic..

Indeed.

David.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Iain will have much time for him since he can't read a score...


Not long ago you were sneering at the Tonmeister course,
and now underestimating the importance of musical training,
which opens doors which would otherwise remain firmly
closed to a boom op or a sound recordist.

For a start Iain, please trim posts so they still make sense. I said you
wouldn't have time for him.

Oh - the doors to being a boom operator or sound recordist are firmly
closed to you too - since you don't have the training.

But, it's interesting to see that Ned Ludd is alive and well
and living in S.London:-)

BTW, I commented on Tonmeisters in that many have your superior view of
sound recording just after qualifying - and come down with a thump in the
real world.


Some years ago, American musicologist Jimmy Coleman
said in a lectu "Learn your Bartok, Charles Ives, your
Gershwin, your Ellington, your Schoenberg and no-one
will expect you to stand out in the pouring rain with a
Nagra". If he had been lecturing to students in the UK,
he would probably have added Holst, RVW and Britten to that
list, but the message remains the same.

Ah you've never experienced the pleasure of open air work? Stuck in that
little box all day with no daylight or fresh air? More fool you.

It's also pretty out of date - all that talk of DATs and Minidisc.

The recording media used is of little relevance,. The first
recordings of this type made by the BBC were on
disc at 78rpm. What was established then is still applicable
today.

Did you actually read the piece?

--
*Red meat is not bad for you. Fuzzy green meat is bad for you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I am confident that, with a good music signal the difference in two
totally different topologies will be cleartly discernible, to
anyone experienced enough to know what to listen for.

Let's get this clear. Are you claiming to be able to tell what
configuration was used just by listening?

--
*I get enough exercise just pushing my luck.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Yet in their heyday, only likely the
vocalist and some solos were amplified.

Even in the fifties, recorded concerts were
multi-mic, as photos of Ellington at Newport (1956)
and many Count Basie concerts of the same era
will testify.

You obviously don't realise what was the heyday of big bands.

--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Looser wrote:

There are all in one mics these days that use a cardiod and figure of
eight capsule - Sanken make one and I use them. Very convenient for
some things. Can be switched between M&S and AB.

Excellent: :-)

So go out and make us a hard-hitting well-balanced
big band recording with a single pair in any format you
choose. I won't hold my breath:-)

I take it since you can only balance a big band properly is by close
multi-micing you'd never heard one live? You don't know what you're
missing.


I see Pucciwankapoof is still making it all up as he goes along...

Now for the **** sig:

--
*I like cats, too. Let's exchange recipes.


Told you....



Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


Prat...

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in
message

Whatever the Decca manual says.

Unfortunately, we're getting selective quotes from it.

You expect me to type it out in its entirety? LOL!
It's 1,000 pages in all.

Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote

I would say that AB is not a coincident pair.

http://www.wikirecording.org/AB_Ster...hone_Technique

Yet, according to Iain, it is the only technique entitled to be called
"co-incident pair". I'd agree with you: MS is co-incident pair, XY is
*definitely* co-incident pair, AB? nah, not really.

Whatever the Decca manual says.

BBC, EMI, Decca, and Tonmeister manuals all have similar
material.

MS is not regarded as a "pair" because the two mics do not
have identical polarity. So it is a technique using two
dissimilar microphones. One could not use a pair of say
Neumann KM 84s often used for AB or XY, in this application.

Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message
"Arny Krueger" wrote

I would say that AB is not a coincident pair.

http://www.wikirecording.org/AB_Ster...hone_Technique

Yet, according to Iain, it is the only technique entitled
to be called "co-incident pair". I'd agree with you: MS
is co-incident pair, XY is *definitely* co-incident pair,
AB? nah, not really.

Whatever the Decca manual says.

Just for fun, try searching the web for "Decca Manual" or "Decca Microphone
Manual" or any logical permutations of similar words.

There are in fact a large number of Decca Manuals, such as these ones:

http://www.shopingathome.com/Circuit...ists/Decca.htm

But is there a Decca Manual with contents that Iain seems to be alluding to?

Maybe...

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

In article ,
"David Looser" wrote:

And what does a *musicologist* know, or care, about field sound recording?

Now they're called "ethnomusicologists," but musicologists' field
recordings are almost as old as recording.

Stephen

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in
message
"Arny Krueger" wrote

I would say that AB is not a coincident pair.

http://www.wikirecording.org/AB_Ster...hone_Technique

Yet, according to Iain, it is the only technique entitled
to be called "co-incident pair". I'd agree with you: MS
is co-incident pair, XY is *definitely* co-incident pair,
AB? nah, not really.

Whatever the Decca manual says.

Just for fun, try searching the web for "Decca Manual" or "Decca
Microphone Manual" or any logical permutations of similar words.

There are in fact a large number of Decca Manuals, such as these ones:

http://www.shopingathome.com/Circuit...ists/Decca.htm

But is there a Decca Manual with contents that Iain seems to be alluding
to?

Maybe...

It's not the only source.
Matt 7.7. Arny

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Yet in their heyday, only likely the
vocalist and some solos were amplified.

Even in the fifties, recorded concerts were
multi-mic, as photos of Ellington at Newport (1956)
and many Count Basie concerts of the same era
will testify.

You obviously don't realise what was the heyday of big bands.


You obviously don't realise what I realise:-)

I am simply given evidence of big band multi-mic recordings
that is available from photographs. Take a look at the
Ellington pics, which appear in at least two biographies.
There are also many pics of the Count Basie Orchestras
recorded concerts from the 50s.

There are two distinct genres here, ohne contasined by the other,
- swing and big band. The swing era is generally taken to be
1935 to 1946 which includes Kenton, Goodman,
Armstrong, Dorseys, Harry James etc etc etc

But big bands started in the 20s with Paul Whiteman
and continued to be popular until the death of Duke
Ellington in 1974. There was also something of a revival
in the 1990s.

Multii mic in a simple form is actually much older than
people think, and appeared soon after the advent of
electrical recording. It's intersting too to note that
as the techniques in recording progressed, changes
were made in the band line up. A tuba or sousaphone
used to strengthen the string bass part, was no
longer needed, and the clanky banjo was replaced
by guitar.


But don't blow smoke, Dave, shouldn't you be out
making that "hard hitting" big band recording with your
single pair?

Off you go now. Take care crossing the road.
Just listening to Duke Ellington's 1965 Copenhagen
version of of Billy Strayhorn's "Chelseas Bridge" It's
multi mic of course:-)

Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Looser wrote:
David was *so* sure the recording was co-incidental. I am curious
to know how he could know this.


Common sense. Co-incident pair recordings are easy to make even with
minimal equipment and without getting in everybody's way, important
if
you are fiming an event not run for your benefit.

Iain as usual is trying to be clever. He's introducing the usual red
herrings. About the actual configuration of the recording pair used.
There are different names for the various options.

This is no red herring, it is a point of accuracy, describing
two totally different concepts, which also sound every different.
The only thing they share is the mic stand and a t-bar:-)

But since 'not even you' could tell what method was used a red herring.

David on the other hand can be excused for not knowing. I was simply
curious to know on what he based his assumption that the programme
to which he referred was made with a co-incidental pair.

MS can also be made from a pair using a transformer matrix.
These were available from Canford years ago when I bought mine.

At least you've admitted to your mistake.
No need to go to the expense of decent transformers - it can be done
actively for less. It's just the sum and difference of the two signals.


There seems to be some confusion on Iain's part about what is meant by
"MS". Does he mean a microphone arrangement that generates signals in that
form, i.e.. the original Blumlein omni + figure-of-8, or does he mean a
recording made in sum & difference form. He had been going on about the
"totally" different sound you get from the three co-incident pair
microphone arrangements, but an XY pair matrixed into sum & difference is
going to sound like an XY pair when matrixed back to L/R for listening,
and a Blumlein pair is going to sound like a Blumlein pair when matrixed
to L/R for listening.


David. Please take the trouble to make a direct comparison
between the same recording made with both AB and XY pairs.

Just as with comparison of grand pianos, or acoustic guitars, you
may not be able to say for certain which is which, but a person
with a reason level of aural perception *should* be able to hear
the difference between them. I have never met even a student who
could not.

The best way to do this, is to double rig a session, and record
each stereo set up to a pair of adjacent tracks, and on playback
switch between them using the console mute buttons to give you a
seemless change-over.

You can check if the listener really has heard the change by asking
them to write down the seconds reading on the TC display when the
change occurs.

Regards
Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in
message
"Arny Krueger" wrote

If you wish to be a one-man Iain Churches defense
league, be my guest.

Having just crossed swords with Iain being a "one-man
Iain Churches defense league" is about the very last
thing I am!

I missed that.

I went back and looked for it.

Can't find it.

Well you haven't looked then, have you? because it's right in this thread!

snip

If you say so.

More negative attitude.

How is that "negative attitude"?


You mean because I didn't refer to your statement about
recording in schools? *that* is enough to justify that
attack on me? - Streuth!

That, plus all the rest.



Oh please! What is the matter with you Arny? why are you so defensive?


David.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

Not that I'm any great shakes, ......

Hmm. This is a sudden turn-around. You claimed to John Atkinson
that you were a professional, and that's how this whole thing got
started.

but what I do is typical and credible. ''

It is neither. Your work is lamentably poor, and typifies
what the Berklee student so astutely described as
"Mr Kreuger's prostitution of recorded arts"

But the saddest thing of all is that you can't hear what's
wrong with it, and so you have made 1 000 other
equally dire recordings.


Iain won't give me that,.....

Indeed I will not. Your work is lamentably poor,
in every respect.


Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in

MS is not regarded as a "pair" because the two mics do not
have identical polarity. So it is a technique using two
dissimilar microphones. One could not use a pair of say
Neumann KM 84s often used for AB or XY, in this application.


OK, so MS isn't "co-incident pair" because the mics aren't regarded as a
"pair" and AB isn't "co-incident pair" because the mics aren't co-incident.
That just leaves XY as the only true co-incident pair technique. OK?

David.

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in
message


Iain will admit from time to time that his betters at various of his
employers have surveyed his capabilities and been very careful to keep
his hands off of the recording equipment.

Will he? can't say I've seen it. Perhaps Iain would like to confirm that
statement (or not as the case may be).

No of course I will not:-) This is a total figment of Arny's
imaginations. He thinks that if he trots this nonsense out often
enough some of it may stick. Not a chance in this case:-)

I find Arny's aversion to the truth strangely at odds with
his claim to be a "born again Christian"

He also admits that other than a few collectables that he keeps to
entertain visiting firemen with their appearance, he owns no audio gear.

So what? since when have big companies like Decca expected their employees
to provide their own recording equipment?

I have tried on many occasions to explain to Arny that even in
small recording outfits, the equipment is owned by the comnpany,
which in its turn is owned by the members of the partnership and/
or the shareholders. Individuals, even though they have made a
financial investment in the company,own nothing personally, and things
like large format consoles, and recording vehicles are on a leasing
agreement. The tax and VAT structure with in the EU make this the
only sensible way to run a business on a professional level.


AIUI Iain mostly records "major
works" by big-name orchestras in recording studios, where
conditions are well controlled.

Actually, Iain does not do what most of us would call recording. His
involvement has been mostly err, administrative.

That's not the impression I get from reading this n.g. If Iain likes to
clarify his precise role then fine, but I don't think I'll take your word
on the subject.

Again, another effort by Arny to distort the truth. He knows
well that I have several hundred commercial recording credits
as recording engineer and senior recording engineer.
Some years ago I took the trouble to type out a list for him,
when he tried to cast doubts upon my track record (no pun
intended:-)

Arny records live
performances of often little-known or new works by less
well-known or amateur musicians in a church.

Wrong again. I record in a number of churches and schools, not just one
church. Many of the works I record are well-known to people who are
engaged in education or religion. Many of them are modern - having been
written in the past 30 years or less.


Well OK, so your record in more than one church, I don't see how that
makes any difference to my point, nor that it justifies a "wrong again".

Arny did not realsise that it was someone else other than myself who
wrote the paragraph to which he was replying.

David, at this stage, it might be be wise to actually listen to
one of Arny's recordings. Despite his claim to be a "professional", he
has nothing released/published, but materiall has "leaked out" from
time to time. I have now heard three examples, all of which
are of the same horrendous standard.

Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in
message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in
message

Iain will admit from time to time that his betters at
various of his employers have surveyed his capabilities
and been very careful to keep his hands off of the
recording equipment.

Will he? can't say I've seen it. Perhaps Iain would like
to confirm that statement (or not as the case may be).

When things get too hot, Iain runs and hides.

I have away for three days. Local airline strikes
are making travel here difficult at the moment.
TG for British Airways:-)

In the ten years or so that I have been discussing recording
with you on Usenet, Arny, you still have not grasped the
basics, and so discussion with you is at the lowest level of
priority, even feeding the hedgehogs when they are about,
is *far* more interesting and important.


If you wish to be a one-man Iain Churches defense league, be my guest.
I've suffered with his gratuitous attacks for several years across several
newsgroups.

If David or anyone else for that matter, cares to check your
"discussion" with such people as the highly respected
engineer/producer/writer John Atkinson, (editor of
Stereophile) who many of us knew from his days
at Abbey Road, and also your "discusssion" with Jenn Martin
(college music teacher and gifted musician) and several others,
they will find that the without exception the pros
formed a solid front against you BS claims. You were, in
every instance the first to initiate any attack. As a result you
were systematically ingnored until you ceased posting on two
Usenet groups. As the result of your behavour some ten or so
years ago, you were specifically denied access to two closed
groups. This ban has never been lifted.

I was told in an e.mail today from one of your fellow
countrymen that you were also requested to resign
from the AES for much the same reason.

He also admits that other than a few collectables that
he keeps to entertain visiting firemen with their
appearance, he owns no audio gear.

So what? since when have big companies like Decca
expected their employees to provide their own recording
equipment?

I think that you will find that most serious professional recording
engineers can't leave their work at work, and maintain private collections
of recording gear that they use for various special occasions and an
occasional side job. It may not be as impressive or extensive as what they
have at work, but it is usually pretty credible.

You will find that most professionals have other broader interests,
music, motor sports, boats, golf, skiing, gardening, or just being at
home with their loved ones in the small amount of spare time they have.

For you, it's a hobby with lots of shiny toys..
That's a totally different thing.

Note that there are two people here who do more than a little professional
recording and share a similar opinion of Iain.

Who might they be?. To my knowledge, the only other music recording
pro, who still keeps in touch, left this group 10 years ago as the result
of your shameful behavour then.

If you refer to Dave P, then he is indeed a professional, but in a totally
different branch of the industry.

If you consider yourself to be one who "does more than a little
professional recording", then please post a link to any of
your 1000 recordings so that people here can hear just just
how professional you really a-)

Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


Some years ago, American musicologist Jimmy Coleman
said in a lectu "Learn your Bartok, Charles Ives, your
Gershwin, your Ellington, your Schoenberg and no-one
will expect you to stand out in the pouring rain with a
Nagra".

Who's sneering now? This does seem to a one of your traits, Iain, to sneer
at those whose jobs you think are somehow inferior to yours.

Not I, nor Jimmy Coleman.. We all make our own
career choices. Even back in the good old days of the
ACCT things were tough for sound recordists - not
enough work to go round. Whe classification became
less strict, many worked as camera assistants.

Jimmy Coleman was in fact a very experienced producer/
engineer/lecturer. He was keen to encourage students to
go the extra mile and keep studying. He stressed what a
tough business this is, and underlined the importance of
qualifying for the highest grade possible, to maximise your
own potential.

Seems like a pretty sensible strategy to me.

And what does a *musicologist* know, or care, about field sound recording?

A lot more than you seem to realsise:-).

It's a totally different job from studio recording and has it's own
challenges and rewards. I doubt many wildlife sound recordists, for
example, think they are only doing that because they didn't learn their
Bartok, Ives, Gershwin, Ellington or Schoenberg.

But doing so opens up any number of additional doors
that would otherwise remain firmly shut. Dave will tell you,
in the UK in particular there are a great many very competent
freelance sound recordists/boom ops all chasing the same jobs,
so any additional string you may have to your bow has to be
an advantage.

Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

Iain will have much time for him since he can't read a score...


Not long ago you were sneering at the Tonmeister course,
and now underestimating the importance of musical training,
which opens doors which would otherwise remain firmly
closed to a boom op or a sound recordist.

For a start Iain, please trim posts so they still make sense. I said you
wouldn't have time for him.

Oh - the doors to being a boom operator or sound recordist are firmly
closed to you too - since you don't have the training.

I studied long and hard so I would never even have to think
about those doors:-)

But, it's interesting to see that Ned Ludd is alive and well
and living in S.London:-)

BTW, I commented on Tonmeisters in that many have your superior view of
sound recording just after qualifying - and come down with a thump in the
real world.

Why do you say that? Most seem to do well. Good people are
snapped up for salaried posts, and reach senior levels quickly.

Some years ago, American musicologist Jimmy Coleman
said in a lectu "Learn your Bartok, Charles Ives, your
Gershwin, your Ellington, your Schoenberg and no-one
will expect you to stand out in the pouring rain with a
Nagra". If he had been lecturing to students in the UK,
he would probably have added Holst, RVW and Britten to that
list, but the message remains the same.

Ah you've never experienced the pleasure of open air work?

Yes indeed. I worked often on recordings of steam locomotives,
field and footplate for the British label Transacord. It was both
interesting and enjoyable.

Stuck in that
little box all day with no daylight or fresh air? More fool you.

Large air conditioned control room, with hot coffee and
croissants. Takes a lot of beating:-)

Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Looser wrote:

There are all in one mics these days that use a cardiod and figure of
eight capsule - Sanken make one and I use them. Very convenient for
some things. Can be switched between M&S and AB.

Excellent: :-)

So go out and make us a hard-hitting well-balanced
big band recording with a single pair in any format you
choose. I won't hold my breath:-)

I take it since you can only balance a big band properly is by close
multi-micing you'd never heard one live? You don't know what you're
missing.

What a foolish presumption:-) As it happens I am going to a big band
performance this very evening at Mosabacka.

But don't blow smoke. I am very much looking forwatd to hearing
your "hard-hitting" properly balanced big band big band made
with a stereo-pair.

Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote

Sorry, but that is just not the case. Ask any assistant engineer
to set you up a co-incidental pair (also commonly known as AB)
What you will get will loook

"Look"? Eh?


Yes. It will look different (compared with XY) if you observe
the way he has attached the mics to the t-bar at the top
of the stand.


Yes of course it looks different (duh!), but so what, the listener isn't
looking is (s)he?

You wrote above, "Look" eh?

and sound totally different

It will sound different to an experienced/discerning ear when
comparing this AB pair with an adjacent XY pair.
.
"Totally different"? Really?, "TOTALLY different"?

I am confident that, with a good music signal the difference in two
totally different topologies will be cleartly discernible, to
anyone experienced enough to know what to listen for.

Yes I'm sure you are right. So in fact you are agreeing with me that the
word "totally" was totally wrong - thank you

If the difference to an experienced ear is clearly discernible, then
"totally" is not inappropriate.


Forget your preconceptions. Beg, steal, borrow or
(preferably) rent some equipment for a few days, and find
out for yourself the strengths and weaknesses of each
format.

What preconceptions? My only "preconception" (actually not a preconception
but based on real experience) is that multi-miked and subsequently mixed
down sounds less "real" than co-incident pair recorded directly to
2-track. Oh and by "co-incident pair" I mean XY and MS.

I have tried to point out that there are many instances when a
pair in any format just does not give what most people perceive
to be the best result, that is how the Decca tree, later used by
many major companies, including the BBC, came into being.

I am interested to know more about the real experience you
mention above.

Did you ever try the tree?

Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
I am confident that, with a good music signal the difference in two
totally different topologies will be cleartly discernible, to
anyone experienced enough to know what to listen for.

Let's get this clear. Are you claiming to be able to tell what
configuration was used just by listening?

Please read again.

I am saying that in a comparison test, switching between two
pairs, one XY and one co-in (AB) a discerning listener will
hear the difference.

Do you disagree?

Students do this kind of thing frequently. Much time is
also spent in comparing the sounds of instruments for
example, and particularly two instruments of the same type
from different makers.

Iain

Dual mono vs. mono mono interrogative...
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message ...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Please post a link to some hard-hitting big band
recordings made with a co-incidental or XY pair.

So what you're implying is.......

I am not "implying" anything, Dave
I am asking you to post a link to some
hard-hitting big band recordings made with a co-incidental
or XY pair. After extensive research, I have yet to find
a single one, so I look forward to your putting me right..


http://www.auldworks.com/bbrec2.htm

This is article by Auld, which has been widely circulated.
I have (or have access to) most of the recordings in this
article. IMO the best by far is the Mel Lewis which as the
article confrms is multi mic a pair and spots for pno, bs,
drums and soloist (of course:-) So probably eight mikes
in all. That's pretty minimal. The reviewer would have liked
yet another mic (the ninth) to record the piano stereo.

What has it to do with Dave making a big band recording
with a single pair?