Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Fleetie" wrote

Famously "Death Magnetic", Metallica's most recent album.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Me...e_waveform.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_m...ing_production

Yes, I remember it being on the Radio 4 news. They played bits of the CD and
"Guitar Hero" versions to show the difference. My thoughts were that if even
Heavy-Metal fans were complaining about over-compression then the industry
really had lost the plot.


That alone was enough to stop me even thinking about buying it.

I'd pay good money, if necessary, to avoid having to listen to any
heavy-metal!

David.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

David Looser wrote:

I'd pay good money, if necessary, to avoid having to listen to any
heavy-metal!

David.

Well, yeah.... You (one) can "look past" the "intimidating" aspect of
the fact that it is noisy and sung in a certain way, and listen to
the words, in some cases, and appreciate, and be moved by it.

For example "Sanatarium" by Metallica about mental illness is very
moving - moved me to tears a few times. I was at the time seeing a
girl with pretty serious mental health issues, and deeply in love with
her, but it was all a waste of my time and emotion, but that song
really was near to the bone; miserably beautiful. If you can see/hear
past the "heavy metal format" of some of those songs, they can be
very moving.

In the end I got thoroughly sick of her and her abuse and binned
her off.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Iain Churches" wrote

Arny's analogy is interesting, but, surprise, surprise, he completely
misses the point.

What "point"?

Neither does he even notice the 2lb of potatoes
added to his 5lb (CD) bag, at the request of his fellow consumers:-)

You've been asked time after time for evidence that these 2lb of potatoes is
there "at the request of his fellow consumers", yet signally failed to do
so.

So I'm asking again, where is the evidence?

David.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote

Arny's analogy is interesting, but, surprise, surprise, he completely
misses the point.

What "point"?

Neither does he even notice the 2lb of potatoes
added to his 5lb (CD) bag, at the request of his fellow consumers:-)

You've been asked time after time for evidence that these 2lb of potatoes
is
there "at the request of his fellow consumers", yet signally failed to do
so.

David, You must get out of that comfy chair and do your
own research, Earlier this month I suggested a number
of organisatiuons to whom you could turn for info. Did
you do so?


So I'm asking again, where is the evidence?


Talk to record buyers about their expectations. Speak
with the PR manager from your favourite record label.


I wouold be *far* easier, and less expensive also to make
a CD prerpro master which an exact clone of the studio
original, with no further changes.

Ask yourself why this is not done.

Iain

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
You've been asked time after time for evidence that these 2lb of
potatoes is there "at the request of his fellow consumers", yet
signally failed to do so.

David, You must get out of that comfy chair and do your
own research, Earlier this month I suggested a number
of organisatiuons to whom you could turn for info. Did
you do so?

And you think you'd get a truthful reply? Didn't think even you so naive.

--
*What are the pink bits in my tyres? Cyclists & Joggers*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote

Arny's analogy is interesting, but, surprise, surprise, he completely
misses the point.

What "point"?

Neither does he even notice the 2lb of potatoes
added to his 5lb (CD) bag, at the request of his fellow consumers:-)

You've been asked time after time for evidence that these 2lb of potatoes
is
there "at the request of his fellow consumers", yet signally failed to do
so.

David, You must get out of that comfy chair and do your
own research, Earlier this month I suggested a number
of organisatiuons to whom you could turn for info. Did
you do so?


You know damn well that such evidence doesn't exist, which is why you are
content to make absurd comments such as the above. And as it doesn't exist
I'm not going to be able to find it, am I? You are the one making the
claim - put up or admit you are tallking nonesense.


So I'm asking again, where is the evidence?


Talk to record buyers about their expectations.

And just how do you expect me to do that? Pay for a market research company
to do a survey for me?

Speak
with the PR manager from your favourite record label.

I don't have a "favorite record label". And you are the one *in* the
industry with the contacts. So if anybody is able to find out it's you. Your
refusal to do so is the clearest proof yet that you *know* there is no
evidence that record buyers prefer over-compressed records.

I wouold be *far* easier, and less expensive also to make
a CD prerpro master which an exact clone of the studio
original, with no further changes.

Ask yourself why this is not done.

I'm asking you. My guess is that producers make the records to please their
bosses, or to meet industry expectations, or as part of some idiotic
loudness "war" with other producers. But if I'm right is anybody in the
industry going to admit it? Do pigs fly?

David.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote

Arny's analogy is interesting, but, surprise, surprise, he completely
misses the point.

What "point"?

Neither does he even notice the 2lb of potatoes
added to his 5lb (CD) bag, at the request of his fellow consumers:-)

You've been asked time after time for evidence that these 2lb of
potatoes is there "at the request of his fellow consumers", yet
signally failed to do so.

David, You must get out of that comfy chair and do your own research,
Earlier this month I suggested a number of organisatiuons to whom you
could turn for info. Did you do so?

Since you made that response to David I have repeatedly asked on this group
for you to give the references to the AES papers you said existed. Can you
please now give some references to these as I'd like to have a look at
them?

I have the back issues of JAES and conference papers on CDROM, but have not
yet found any that supply evidence to show that the belief that people
'prefer' level compressed and clipped CDs is founded in reality. I would
like to read the AES papers you mentioned. Since you said they exist I
assume you can provide references.

There is of course ample evidence that the producers often do level
compress, etc. That point is not doubted. But it isn't the point I keep
asking about.

Also, you suggested I try talking to people in the biz who hold these
beliefs. I then asked you to supply a few names and contact details of
people who *would* speak to me about this *and* be willing to provide
evidence upon which their beliefs were founded. I'd like to repeat that
request here. If you give me that info I will - after Xmas and Hogmanay -
see if I can contact them. I realise you may wish to give me these details
privately, or ask the persons concerned first. That's fair enough.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

Have you ever heard a decent big band live in a good venue, Iain?

Ah, at last, a mention of the venue. Reading Iain's talk about big-band
recording it was all about microphones - what about the acoustic environment
in which the music is played?

David.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Keith G
wrote:

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...


I still say it's extraordinarily good of you to hand this sort of
information out for *free*....


ahem ...particularly so when he hasn't been able to even give the few
references I asked him to provide to back up his own claims that they
existed. :-)

Kitty, of course, doesn't understand any of it hence the praise for Iain.
And Iain thinks just writing screeds of irrelevances with a few audio
snippets thrown in passes the exam.

Love the bit about asking record company PR people. When did this sort
ever give (or know) an honest view.


The whole thing was absurd, He wanted me to trawl through every issue of the
JAES looking for something that might be, but probably isn't, there, even
though I don't have any access to the JAES. He wanted me to go to a record
shop and ask customers ("Excuse me sir/madam, could you tell me whether you
prefer your records over-compressed and clipped, or not?") and finally he
thought that a record company PR executive would (a) understand the issue
and (b) talk in a meaningful way to a random member of the public about it.

It was all too ridiculous for words.

David.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

In article ,
"David Looser" wrote:

It was all too ridiculous for words.

For more anecdotes, there's the gearslutz mastering forum.

Stephen

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

Have you ever heard a decent big band live in a good venue, Iain?

Not only heard but recorded big bands in many locations around
Europe, including Copenhagen, the Rudolfinum (Prague) and
the Queen Elizabeth Hall. and the Round House
in London. Do these meet your crtiteria as good venues?

I also *play* in a semi-pro big band.
Tell us of your big band experiences please Dave.


Ah, at last, a mention of the venue. Reading Iain's talk about big-band
recording it was all about microphones - what about the acoustic
environment
in which the music is played?

You pick your recording method according to the acoustic of the
auditorium. These days there is almost always PA, which must
also be taken into account.

In a studio situation the importance of the acoustic environment
is greatly diminished. You can treat each section of the band as a
separate entity and place it in the acoustic of youe choice, by use
of reverb.So you can have The Manchester Free Trade Hall for
the brass, and the V+A for the woodwinds.

Iain

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...

Ah, at last, a mention of the venue. Reading Iain's talk about big-band
recording it was all about microphones - what about the acoustic
environment
in which the music is played?

You pick your recording method according to the acoustic of the
auditorium. These days there is almost always PA, which must
also be taken into account.

Ah, so we are back to microphones again :-(

David.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

Have you ever heard a decent big band live in a good venue, Iain?

Not only heard but recorded big bands in many locations around
Europe, including Copenhagen, the Rudolfinum (Prague) and
the Queen Elizabeth Hall. and the Round House
in London. Do these meet your crtiteria as good venues?

I also *play* in a semi-pro big band.
Tell us of your big band experiences please Dave.


Ah, at last, a mention of the venue. Reading Iain's talk about big-band
recording it was all about microphones - what about the acoustic
environment
in which the music is played?


Is that Looser arguing like **** for argument's sake again - where's the
'debate' ankle-biters when you need them?



You pick your recording method according to the acoustic of the
auditorium. These days there is almost always PA, which must
also be taken into account.

In a studio situation the importance of the acoustic environment
is greatly diminished. You can treat each section of the band as a
separate entity and place it in the acoustic of youe choice, by use
of reverb.So you can have The Manchester Free Trade Hall for
the brass, and the V+A for the woodwinds.



Frankly Iain, there more 'artifice' in a recording the worse, I feel - all
this *technology trickery* stems from people trying to create the 'perfect
sound forever' on crappy CDs, I suspect....

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

Iain Churches wrote:

In a studio situation the importance of the acoustic environment
is greatly diminished. You can treat each section of the band as a
separate entity and place it in the acoustic of youe choice, by use
of reverb.So you can have The Manchester Free Trade Hall for
the brass, and the V+A for the woodwinds.

You would put the brass in a double room with the woodwind in the bathroom.
The Free Trade Hall has been a hotel for years.

--
Eiron.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Have you ever heard a decent big band live in a good venue, Iain?

Not only heard but recorded big bands in many locations around
Europe, including Copenhagen, the Rudolfinum (Prague) and
the Queen Elizabeth Hall. and the Round House
in London. Do these meet your crtiteria as good venues?

I also *play* in a semi-pro big band.

How can you be so ignorant of what they sound like live, then?

--
*Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Have you ever heard a decent big band live in a good venue, Iain?

Not only heard but recorded big bands in many locations around
Europe, including Copenhagen, the Rudolfinum (Prague) and
the Queen Elizabeth Hall. and the Round House
in London. Do these meet your crtiteria as good venues?

I also *play* in a semi-pro big band.

How can you be so ignorant of what they sound like live, then?


The ignorance, which has been evident all along, is
yours, trying to substitute real hands on experience
of many years, for your armchair expertise.


Iain

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Iain Churches wrote:

In a studio situation the importance of the acoustic environment
is greatly diminished. You can treat each section of the band as a
separate entity and place it in the acoustic of youe choice, by use
of reverb.So you can have The Manchester Free Trade Hall for
the brass, and the V+A for the woodwinds.

You would put the brass in a double room with the woodwind in the
bathroom.
The Free Trade Hall has been a hotel for years.

It was a great venue - the scene of many fine Halle Orchestra
projects.The front of the building was splendid. Was it completely
demolished?

Iain

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


Frankly Iain, there more 'artifice' in a recording the worse, I feel - all
this *technology trickery* stems from people trying to create the 'perfect
sound forever' on crappy CDs, I suspect....

But digital reverb for example makes it all so easy. *Dozens* of preset
effects in a 2U box!

It was much more fun to use a lift shaft, and stick a speaker in the
bottom and a mic at the top, and use that for reverb, or put the
drum kit out in the stair well, with a wet tea towel towel on the
top head of the snare drum, and a sack of spuds inside the
bass drum.. We don't have fun like that anymo-(

Iain

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"David Looser" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"David Looser" wrote in message
...

Ah, at last, a mention of the venue. Reading Iain's talk about big-band
recording it was all about microphones - what about the acoustic
environment
in which the music is played?

You pick your recording method according to the acoustic of the
auditorium. These days there is almost always PA, which must
also be taken into account.

Ah, so we are back to microphones again :-(

Well yes. The acoustic of a concert hall or auditorium is
something that you cannot normally do very much about,
so in the end it's all down to mic technique:-)

Many companies record in the same venues, St. John's.
Smith Square is a good example. Each recording sounds
different regardless of being made in the same acoustic
space.

Iain

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Have you ever heard a decent big band live in a good venue, Iain?

Not only heard but recorded big bands in many locations around
Europe, including Copenhagen, the Rudolfinum (Prague) and
the Queen Elizabeth Hall. and the Round House
in London. Do these meet your crtiteria as good venues?

I also *play* in a semi-pro big band.

How can you be so ignorant of what they sound like live, then?


The ignorance, which has been evident all along, is
yours, trying to substitute real hands on experience
of many years, for your armchair expertise.

So sad your so called experience leaves you so ignorant.
But I'll remember next time you ask me for advice on how to cover a live
event. Especially when you ask such a question which shows just how little
knowledge you have of such things.

--
*Go the extra mile. It makes your boss look like an incompetent slacker *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Many companies record in the same venues, St. John's.
Smith Square is a good example. Each recording sounds
different regardless of being made in the same acoustic
space.

One would hope so. Not much calling for lots of identical recordings...

--
*I started out with nothing... and I still have most of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message


The ignorance, which has been evident all along, is
yours, trying to substitute real hands on experience
of many years, for your armchair expertise.

Tall words from someone who never actually did any recording: never chose or
positioned a mic, never aligned a recorder, never pushed a record button
with live musicans playing, and never cut a tape with a razor blade and
spliced it, in his entire professional career.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Have you ever heard a decent big band live in a good
venue, Iain?

Not only heard but recorded big bands in many locations
around Europe, including Copenhagen, the Rudolfinum
(Prague) and
the Queen Elizabeth Hall. and the Round House
in London. Do these meet your criteria as good venues?

I also *play* in a semi-pro big band.

How can you be so ignorant of what they sound like live,
then?

Simple. It is simple physics. One body can't be in two places at the same
time. Musicians can't possibly know what their playing sounds like to a
live audience since they can't play and be in the audience at the same time.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


The ignorance, which has been evident all along, is
yours, trying to substitute real hands on experience
of many years, for your armchair expertise.

Tall words from someone who never actually did any recording: never chose
or positioned a mic, never aligned a recorder, never pushed a record
button with live musicans playing, and never cut a tape with a razor blade
and spliced it, in his entire professional career.

LOL:-)

Hold on, Arny the men in white coats will be along in a minute.
Why don't you listen to "Domine" while you are waiting:-)

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Keith G" wrote in message
...


Frankly Iain, there more 'artifice' in a recording the worse, I feel -
all
this *technology trickery* stems from people trying to create the
'perfect
sound forever' on crappy CDs, I suspect....

But digital reverb for example makes it all so easy. *Dozens* of preset
effects in a 2U box!

It was much more fun to use a lift shaft, and stick a speaker in the
bottom and a mic at the top, and use that for reverb, or put the
drum kit out in the stair well, with a wet tea towel towel on the
top head of the snare drum, and a sack of spuds inside the
bass drum.. We don't have fun like that anymo-(


Not surprised - can't always find a wet tea towel when you want one, can
you?

@;-)

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


The ignorance, which has been evident all along, is
yours, trying to substitute real hands on experience
of many years, for your armchair expertise.

Tall words from someone who never actually did any recording: never chose
or positioned a mic, never aligned a recorder, never pushed a record
button with live musicans playing, and never cut a tape with a razor
blade
and spliced it, in his entire professional career.

LOL:-)

Hold on, Arny the men in white coats will be along in a minute.
Why don't you listen to "Domine" while you are waiting:-)



Poor old Amy - you can almost smell the *fear* can't you!!

(I bet *pushing the button* is the toughest part!! :-))

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


The ignorance, which has been evident all along, is
yours, trying to substitute real hands on experience
of many years, for your armchair expertise.

Tall words from someone who never actually did any
recording: never chose or positioned a mic, never
aligned a recorder, never pushed a record button with
live musicans playing, and never cut a tape with a razor
blade and spliced it, in his entire professional career.

We can take absence of a documented denial of the above as agreement on
Iain's part that no, he has never been a hands-on professional recordist.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

Iain Churches wrote:
"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Iain Churches wrote:

In a studio situation the importance of the acoustic environment
is greatly diminished. You can treat each section of the band as a
separate entity and place it in the acoustic of youe choice, by use
of reverb.So you can have The Manchester Free Trade Hall for
the brass, and the V+A for the woodwinds.
You would put the brass in a double room with the woodwind in the
bathroom.
The Free Trade Hall has been a hotel for years.

It was a great venue - the scene of many fine Halle Orchestra
projects.The front of the building was splendid. Was it completely
demolished?

The facade is still there. It's the Radisson Edwardian Hotel now.
I misspent my youth there listening to James Loughran and the Hallé.

--
Eiron.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Iain Churches wrote:
"Eiron" wrote in message
...
Iain Churches wrote:

In a studio situation the importance of the acoustic environment
is greatly diminished. You can treat each section of the band as a
separate entity and place it in the acoustic of youe choice, by use
of reverb.So you can have The Manchester Free Trade Hall for
the brass, and the V+A for the woodwinds.
You would put the brass in a double room with the woodwind in the
bathroom.
The Free Trade Hall has been a hotel for years.

It was a great venue - the scene of many fine Halle Orchestra
projects.The front of the building was splendid. Was it completely
demolished?

The facade is still there. It's the Radisson Edwardian Hotel now.
I misspent my youth there listening to James Loughran and the Hallé.

I can'ät think of a better way to misspend ones youth:-))

At least the site is not a Tesco's car park.
All the same, very sad. Hopefully the Halle found a
new venue.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Iain Churches" wrote in message


The ignorance, which has been evident all along, is
yours, trying to substitute real hands on experience
of many years, for your armchair expertise.

Tall words from someone who never actually did any
recording: never chose or positioned a mic, never
aligned a recorder, never pushed a record button with
live musicans playing, and never cut a tape with a razor
blade and spliced it, in his entire professional career.

We can take absence of a documented denial of the above as agreement on
Iain's part that no, he has never been a hands-on professional recordist.

Hang on just a bit longer Arny. Take another Valium,
Those nice men in the white coats will be along very soon
Meanwhile, listen to "Domine" once again.

Iain

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Many companies record in the same venues, St. John's.
Smith Square is a good example. Each recording sounds
different regardless of being made in the same acoustic
space.

One would hope so. Not much calling for lots of identical recordings...

I refer (of course) to the *sound* of those recordings,
not to the works recorded.

Iain

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...



Sorry to be looking over your shoulder again Iain, but it's how I get to see
what your friend Amy is saying - wot with him being in my ****ter an' all!!
:-)



"Arny Krueger" wrote


We can take absence of a documented denial of the above as agreement on
Iain's part that no, he has never been a hands-on professional recordist.


Again with the 'we' - I wonder who's there with him? His pooch?

(If it is Pucciwanka, I wonder what they are *doing*...??)

@;-)

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:

Sorry to be looking over your shoulder again Iain, but it's how I get to
see what your friend Amy is saying - wot with him being in my ****ter
an' all!!
:-)

And just how weird is that...

--
*I got a sweater for Christmas. I really wanted a screamer or a moaner*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in
message
In article ,
Keith G wrote:

Sorry to be looking over your shoulder again Iain, but
it's how I get to see what your friend Amy is saying -
wot with him being in my ****ter an' all!!
:-)

And just how weird is that...

Getting Kitty to killfile one's self is a process for which there would no
doubt be quite a demand, were it possible to do so by reliable means. ;-)

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
...



Sorry to be looking over your shoulder again Iain, but it's how I get to
see what your friend Amy is saying - wot with him being in my ****ter an'
all!! :-)



"Arny Krueger" wrote


We can take absence of a documented denial of the above as agreement on
Iain's part that no, he has never been a hands-on professional
recordist.


Again with the 'we' - I wonder who's there with him? His pooch?


No I think he's very much alone - No-one in their
right mind would align themselves with "Deluded of Detroit"
Remember how quickly Pinkie disassociated himself?

Arny still does not understand even the job titles.
A recordist works in film and TV, recording dialogue,
foley etc.

Most of what he writes is too banal to warrant a
reply.

Iain

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Arny still does not understand even the job titles.
A recordist works in film and TV, recording dialogue,
foley etc.

Seems you know little about that too.

A sound recordist in film and TV is responsible for *all* the sound
captured on camera. It might be dialogue - or it might be a symphony
orchestra. Or even a big band. He might also provide wild tracks - ie
sound not on camera - for use at the dub.

Foley is the *creation* of sound FX at a dub. Things like footsteps. That
is the responsibility of the dubbing mixer.

Really, armchair experts like you should keep quiet about things they have
no knowledge of.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

Foley is the *creation* of sound FX at a dub. Things like footsteps. That
is the responsibility of the dubbing mixer.

I'm suprised to read that. My clear understanding is that recording Foley is
a separate operation, recorded in a Foley stage, and done *before* the dub.
The Foley recordist is often given his own credit at the end of a film. The
dubbing mixers would expect to have the Foley tracks available to them at
the time of the dub along with the dialogue, music etc.

David.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

In article ,
David Looser wrote:
Foley is the *creation* of sound FX at a dub. Things like footsteps.
That is the responsibility of the dubbing mixer.

I'm suprised to read that. My clear understanding is that recording
Foley is a separate operation, recorded in a Foley stage, and done
*before* the dub. The Foley recordist is often given his own credit at
the end of a film. The dubbing mixers would expect to have the Foley
tracks available to them at the time of the dub along with the dialogue,
music etc.

It depends on the size of the operation. And changing technology.
Certainly in TV Foley was done at the main dub - but then TV tends to have
more live sound. If the dialogue is all post synced as once was the case
in films, all the effects have to be created. Which makes for a massive
amount of Foley.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

It depends on the size of the operation. And changing technology.
Certainly in TV Foley was done at the main dub - but then TV tends to have
more live sound. If the dialogue is all post synced as once was the case
in films, all the effects have to be created. Which makes for a massive
amount of Foley.


OK, I entirely admit that my knowledge is based on feature film practice, I
still find it hard to imagine Foley being recorded actually during a dub
though. Wouldn't this mean all the paraphernalia of a Foley stage having to
be present in a dubbing theatre?

I was told by someone in the sound department at Pinewood that all
incidental sound effects are routinely re-recorded in Foley for the foreign
language versions. This would apply regardless of whether the
English-language dialogue was post-synced or not.

David.

Compressed Music, Metallica's Disgrace, and Floyd
 

In article ,
David Looser wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

It depends on the size of the operation. And changing technology.
Certainly in TV Foley was done at the main dub - but then TV tends to
have more live sound. If the dialogue is all post synced as once was
the case in films, all the effects have to be created. Which makes for
a massive amount of Foley.


OK, I entirely admit that my knowledge is based on feature film
practice, I still find it hard to imagine Foley being recorded actually
during a dub though. Wouldn't this mean all the paraphernalia of a
Foley stage having to be present in a dubbing theatre?

Decent TV dubbing suites usually have a small studio attached to them. Can
be used for voice recordings as well as Foley. Of course for a feature
film the whole thing is scaled up. The dubbing process may be split into
several different sections with specialists doing the track laying making
the dub more of a mixdown. But in TV it's more usual to do it all in one
process. Many dubs these days are one man operations since digital editors
arrived.

I was told by someone in the sound department at Pinewood that all
incidental sound effects are routinely re-recorded in Foley for the
foreign language versions. This would apply regardless of whether the
English-language dialogue was post-synced or not.

Can't see why they'd need different language versions of Foley. Perhaps
down to custom and practice. ;-)

I have done Foley for a TV series which was being dubbed into a different
language. It was a quiet summer and our HOD decided to find work to do.
;-) Two of us spent a couple of weeks doing it all - no pukka Foley
artists involved. Because of cost. Was great fun.

Older feature films with background music had it easy - all you need for
those are spot FX. Without that it becomes much more difficult to produce
a convincing result. Most TV progs dubbed to a different language simply
don't bother - due to the time/costs involved.

--
*Stable Relationships Are For Horses. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.