On 10/01/2010 18:03, Laurence Payne wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:03:46 +0000, Keith Garratt
wrote:

Speakers get better the longer you have them, in my book. Actually, I
would go as far as to suggest that most people who make a significant
effort to *upgrade* speakers end up invariably disappointed..??

Within the same general price range and (particularly) size, I suspect
you're right.



Trust me, there are posters and (I suspect) lurkers here that I could
name who have done that - spent lots of money on 'better' speakers only
to be disappointed!

;-)



It amuses me sometimes how people who are prepared to spend hundreds,
even thousands, on equipment and cables have a blockage regarding what
can REALLY make a difference - letting speakers be physically large
and placing them in the optimum position.


Absolutely.

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 15:10:27 -0000, "TonyL"
wrote:

I'm currently trying to work out why my IPL TL speakers are giving
disappointing results and I suspect placement problems. Main problem
is lack of a well defined stereo image. Phasing is OK, levels are
OK, listening to test tones reveal large volume fluctuations as I
move around the room, presumably due to reflections and
cancellation. I know there are some rules of thumb to give optimum
speaker positions but I'm limited by room/furniture layout...and
wife.

What's to work out? First thing to do if you want a stereo image is
optimise speaker placement. If you can't get an iPod and one of those
playback docks. You'll still hear the music, and won't waste money on
pretending it's "hi-fi". (If you really want to ostentatiously waste
money, I expect Bose make one :-)


I want a proper stereo image not just "hear the music" and I'm looking for
ways to achieve this in a room that is used by other people and contains
furniture. So, there have to be compromises...that is what there is to "work
out".

I don't understand your references to "pretending it's hifi" and
"ostentatiously wasting money". Care to explain ?

On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 23:49:19 -0000, "TonyL"
wrote:

What's to work out? First thing to do if you want a stereo image is
optimise speaker placement. If you can't get an iPod and one of those
playback docks. You'll still hear the music, and won't waste money on
pretending it's "hi-fi". (If you really want to ostentatiously waste
money, I expect Bose make one :-)


I want a proper stereo image not just "hear the music" and I'm looking for
ways to achieve this in a room that is used by other people and contains
furniture. So, there have to be compromises...that is what there is to "work
out".

I don't understand your references to "pretending it's hifi" and
"ostentatiously wasting money". Care to explain ?

I have a horrible feeling that speaker positioning is something you
just can't compromise on if you want a good stereo image. Others may
have suggestions. Have you told us what speakers you have and what
your positioning restrictions are? As long as you're not rigidly
forced to mount them enclosed in a shelving unit I suppose there may
be hope :-)

In article , Laurence Payne
wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 23:49:19 -0000, "TonyL"
wrote:

What's to work out? First thing to do if you want a stereo image is
optimise speaker placement. If you can't get an iPod and one of
those playback docks. You'll still hear the music, and won't waste
money on pretending it's "hi-fi". (If you really want to
ostentatiously waste money, I expect Bose make one :-)


I want a proper stereo image not just "hear the music" and I'm looking
for ways to achieve this in a room that is used by other people and
contains furniture. So, there have to be compromises...that is what
there is to "work out".

I don't understand your references to "pretending it's hifi" and
"ostentatiously wasting money". Care to explain ?

I have a horrible feeling that speaker positioning is something you just
can't compromise on if you want a good stereo image.

My experience supports that. Alas physics doesn't give a damn about what
people might find 'convenient'. The reality is therefore that the location
(and pointing) of speakers, listening position, and room acoustics all
generally conspire to mean getting a really good image can be difficult.
Maybe impossible with some room/speaker combinations.

That may well explain why it seems so many people have never heard such
imaging and confuse it with 'sound coming from around and about', etc. So
have no idea how dramatic an effect it can have upon listening to be
presented with a good stereo image.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Laurence
Payne wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 23:49:19 -0000, "TonyL"
wrote:

What's to work out? First thing to do if you want a stereo image
is optimise speaker placement. If you can't get an iPod and one of
those playback docks. You'll still hear the music, and won't waste
money on pretending it's "hi-fi". (If you really want to
ostentatiously waste money, I expect Bose make one :-)


I want a proper stereo image not just "hear the music" and I'm
looking for ways to achieve this in a room that is used by other
people and contains furniture. So, there have to be
compromises...that is what there is to "work out".

I don't understand your references to "pretending it's hifi" and
"ostentatiously wasting money". Care to explain ?

I have a horrible feeling that speaker positioning is something you
just can't compromise on if you want a good stereo image.

My experience supports that. Alas physics doesn't give a damn about
what people might find 'convenient'. The reality is therefore that
the location (and pointing) of speakers, listening position, and room
acoustics all generally conspire to mean getting a really good image
can be difficult. Maybe impossible with some room/speaker
combinations.

That may well explain why it seems so many people have never heard
such imaging and confuse it with 'sound coming from around and
about', etc. So have no idea how dramatic an effect it can have upon
listening to be presented with a good stereo image.

Slainte,

Jim


Laurence, Jim,

The speakers are transmission lines from IPL acoustics, delivered in kit
form and assembled by me. I am familiar with proper stereo imaging. I used
to enjoy it at a previous location with a pair of trusty Wharfedale
speakers...that is why I miss it.

I can point the speakers OK but position wise I don't have much room to
maneuver....the units are quite large and heavy. Separation is rather
excessive...from my listening position they subtend an angle of, I guess, 80
degrees with a correspondingly large amount of speaker "toe in". The room is
quite large and square but with a lowish ceiling for its size. RHS speaker
is 3 inches away from a back wall and next to a doorway. LHS speaker is two
feet from the back wall and 6 inches from a side wall. To get good
positioning I would have to remove a large fireplace and/or resite the large
TV to where nobody could watch it.

Yup, I know it sounds hopeless (pun intended)...I was just grasping at
straws by mentioning it in here.

On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:30:48 -0000, "TonyL"
wrote:


The speakers are transmission lines from IPL acoustics, delivered in kit
form and assembled by me. I am familiar with proper stereo imaging. I used
to enjoy it at a previous location with a pair of trusty Wharfedale
speakers...that is why I miss it.

I can point the speakers OK but position wise I don't have much room to
maneuver....the units are quite large and heavy. Separation is rather
excessive...from my listening position they subtend an angle of, I guess, 80
degrees with a correspondingly large amount of speaker "toe in". The room is
quite large and square but with a lowish ceiling for its size. RHS speaker
is 3 inches away from a back wall and next to a doorway. LHS speaker is two
feet from the back wall and 6 inches from a side wall. To get good
positioning I would have to remove a large fireplace and/or resite the large
TV to where nobody could watch it.

Yup, I know it sounds hopeless (pun intended)...I was just grasping at
straws by mentioning it in here.

Yeah. The room is part of the speaker system, and I guess you've
chosen a bad one.

Only one thought. What happens if you forget about toe-in and point
them both forward? I know it's against all the rules, but....

Or put them much closer together and sit much closer when you want to
wallow in stereo. You'll still get enjoyable music from the general
seating position when you're not listening so intensely.

The best image I ever got was from a pair of Dalquist speakers. 5
drivers per box, rather inaccurate response but amazing stereo when
positioned with lots of clear space around them.

In article , Laurence Payne
wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:30:48 -0000, "TonyL"

The best image I ever got was from a pair of Dalquist speakers. 5
drivers per box, rather inaccurate response but amazing stereo when
positioned with lots of clear space around them.


FWIW as a general rule I tend to find you tend to get better imaging if the
speakers and listening position are all well clear of the walls. Beyond
that it becomes a matter of having the patience and ability to keep
experimenting and adjusting positions, etc. If circumstances prevent this
then it may be impossible to get a good image, alas.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Laurence
Payne wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:30:48 -0000, "TonyL"

The best image I ever got was from a pair of Dalquist speakers. 5
drivers per box, rather inaccurate response but amazing stereo when
positioned with lots of clear space around them.


FWIW as a general rule I tend to find you tend to get better imaging
if the speakers and listening position are all well clear of the
walls. Beyond that it becomes a matter of having the patience and
ability to keep experimenting and adjusting positions, etc. If
circumstances prevent this then it may be impossible to get a good
image, alas.


For me, clear of the walls is not an option. But I'm not so compulsive that
my life will be ruined for lack of a decent stereo image. As per your and
Laurence's advice I'll carry on tweaking within the room constraints.
Thanks.

Laurence Payne wrote:

Yeah. The room is part of the speaker system, and I guess you've
chosen a bad one.

Only one thought. What happens if you forget about toe-in and point
them both forward? I know it's against all the rules, but....


I will try that.

Or put them much closer together and sit much closer when you want to
wallow in stereo. You'll still get enjoyable music from the general
seating position when you're not listening so intensely.


One problem is that they are widely seperated and can't be placed closer.

The best image I ever got was from a pair of Dalquist speakers. 5
drivers per box, rather inaccurate response but amazing stereo when
positioned with lots of clear space around them.


I might try repositioning them temporarily when the rest of the family are
not around. I've never heard a good image from these speakers so I should
make sure that it is room problems and not something wrong with the speakers
themselves. Because they are transmission line enclosures they are heavy
brutes and so I need everybody out of the way while I'm moving them.

TonyL wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Laurence
Payne wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:30:48 -0000, "TonyL"
The best image I ever got was from a pair of Dalquist speakers. 5
drivers per box, rather inaccurate response but amazing stereo when
positioned with lots of clear space around them.

FWIW as a general rule I tend to find you tend to get better imaging
if the speakers and listening position are all well clear of the
walls. Beyond that it becomes a matter of having the patience and
ability to keep experimenting and adjusting positions, etc. If
circumstances prevent this then it may be impossible to get a good
image, alas.


For me, clear of the walls is not an option. But I'm not so compulsive that
my life will be ruined for lack of a decent stereo image. As per your and
Laurence's advice I'll carry on tweaking within the room constraints.
Thanks.



When I see this 'stereo sweet spot' obsessiveness creeping in to the
proceedings, I visualize a dentist's chair bolted to the floor with
velcro wrist restraints on the arms....