"Shouting Down" on URA
 

"Iain Churches" wrote

Thinking back, there have been very few people
indeed on this group who were "active in audio",
by that I mean actuallty building things,amps and
speakers, and making evaluations and comparisons.


ISTM that there are quite a lot of people here who build things.
In recent months the group has had requests for help with all sorts of
problems that various posters have had with construction projects. Maybe
these aren't all "amps & speakers", but there is a lot more to audio than
those two particular items. Recently we've even had someone building a
valve-based audio mixer, does that not count as being "active in audio" in
your book?

As for "making evaluations and comparisons", doing that in a meaningful way
is not something that is really within the province of the amateur
enthusiast. But of course we have Jim Lesurf here, who far and away the most
active and expert in this respect of those currently on URA.

Andy was one, and Keith another. Both got very
rough and treatment.

In the time I've been here Keith has dished out far more "rough treatment"
to others than he has received himself.


IIRC most of the shouting down was done by the
remarkably short-lived Pinkie/Arny double act,
Vinyl Grinder and Monkey, as they were known.


I've been here quite a while, but maybe not long enough to remember that
one. In recent weeks, though, we've had the Keith/Bill double act who have
egged each other on to come up with newer and ever more offensive nicknames
for those they choose to regard as being their "enemies". In the short time
he's been here Bill has become one of URA's most prolific posters, yet the
vast majority of his posts have been either gratuitous insults, or pointless
"me too" comments. I'm surprised that, whilst you are so keen to complain
about the "shouting down" that happened in the distant past you have been
silent about Bill's current highly negative influence on URA. What hold does
he have over you? Or are worried that if you comment on his crass behaviour
he'll add you to his list of people to insult?

David.

"Shouting Down" on URA
 

In article , David Looser
wrote:
"Iain Churches" wrote


As for "making evaluations and comparisons", doing that in a meaningful
way is not something that is really within the province of the amateur
enthusiast.

I'd slightly disagree with that. It is quite possible for amateurs to do
meaningful evaluations and comparisons. The snag is that for them to be
meaningful there are various details of how this should be done that they
need to understand and deal with. That in turn means they should be willing
to learn about the various factors that can impede making meaningful
evaluations, and understand the methods which help to deal with these
factors.

There are many factors which are well known to professional audio engineers
that can lead to erronious conclusions. Equally, a number of experimental
and proceedural methods have been developed that deal with them. None of
them require the physical skills of a brain surgeon, or the understanding
of theories as complex as quantum gravity. They just need the person to
have enough interest and open-minded willingness to study the topic.

Alas, many enthusiasts (some of them 'professionals' in the sense that they
do it for cash) fail to do this. And thus produce results which lead them
to drawing conclusions which their actual 'evaluation' results don't really
support.

That in turn leads to some adopting various conclusions as matters of
faith, and to deny the possibility that their evaluations could possibly be
flawed. This is a shame as it can tend to mislead others and hamper genuine
improvements and discoveries.

Andy was one, and Keith another. Both got very rough and treatment.

In the time I've been here Keith has dished out far more "rough
treatment" to others than he has received himself.

I'm not sure what "rough treatment" of Andy it is that Iain has in mind.
The only time I can recall having a serious disagreement with Andy is IIRC
some years ago when he said he failed to do things like check carefully for
possible problems like HF instability with a scope. Since this is
potentially a *safety* issue I was very concerned by that. I would
certainly not wish to make power amplifiers for anyone else without
checking such things.


IIRC most of the shouting down was done by the remarkably short-lived
Pinkie/Arny double act, Vinyl Grinder and Monkey, as they were known.

TBH Things these days seem quite mild compared to the years when Stewart
and Arny used to argue with 'Trotsky'. Hands up those of you who remember
that! 8-]



I've been here quite a while, but maybe not long enough to remember that
one. In recent weeks, though, we've had the Keith/Bill double act who
have egged each other on to come up with newer and ever more offensive
nicknames for those they choose to regard as being their "enemies". In
the short time he's been here Bill has become one of URA's most prolific
posters, yet the vast majority of his posts have been either gratuitous
insults, or pointless "me too" comments.

Yes, I've noticed that he seems to have picked up Keith's habit. Making
assertions that indicate he has no interest in what those like Arny, Dave,
etc, have to say whilst making content-free comments on many of their
postings. Why they can't do what others do, and simply ignore posts that
don't interest them, I don't know. Although Keith has in the past made
clear that his interest is in being able to "win" arguments. That is why I
eventually decided to give up trying to have a conversation with him about
audio. You can't really have a conversation with someone who treats what
you say as if it were all an argument to "win" by whatever means -
including patronising name calling, sniping at your other postings, etc.

Personally, I'm quite happy to read Keith's postings on things like his
interest in microphones, amps, etc. But I just skip over his yapping at
Arny, Dave, etc, as examples of his eagerness to "win" and "have the last
word".... as I expect he will probably now do here.... :-)

And, no, I can't say I am happy with the tone of some of Arny's comments,
either. But I just skip over that as I do what Keith (and now Bill) post of
similar ilk.

However I do think it a shame that all the name calling, etc, simply deters
others from contributing.

Personally, I'd prefer people to focus on audio, not on having playground
arguments. TBH I don't mind 'OT' postings if they are actually interesting.
Others I just skip over. That's Usenet. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Shouting Down" on URA
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message

"Iain Churches" wrote

Thinking back, there have been very few people
indeed on this group who were "active in audio",
by that I mean actually building things,amps and
speakers, and making evaluations and comparisons.


This is a pretty strange comment, particularly given its source, Iain.

AFAIK Iain himself has nearly zero actual hands-on involvement with audio. I
don't recall ever hearing about him personally soldering wires or parts,
cutting wood for enclosures or chassis, drilling and punching holes,
personally setting up mics or laying down mic cables, actually recording a
live performance by pressing the arm and record buttons, live mixing,
editing audio using a DAW, burning CDs for distribution to end users, etc.,
etc. Nada.

ISTM that there are quite a lot of people here who build
things.

Interesting that later on Iain demonizes me by name, and yet in terms of
hands-on audio work, I am probably among the top 20% around here. I have
both/video audio production and audio evaluation and construction projects
going on all of the time.

Note all of the childish insults that particularly Iain has heaped on what
little he knows about my production work - at this point perhaps 100s of
derisive posts, many of which have been given instant "me too" approval by
Kitty and Bill. They know full well that by shouting others down they can
make their own efforts seem more important.

In recent months the group has had requests for help with
all sorts of problems that various posters have had with
construction projects. Maybe these aren't all "amps &
speakers", but there is a lot more to audio than those
two particular items.

Agreed.

Recently we've even had someone
building a valve-based audio mixer, does that not count
as being "active in audio" in your book?

Point of order, wasn't that discussion mostly on RAT? Not that it isn't an
interesting and challenging project in a retro sort of way.

As for "making evaluations and comparisons", doing that
in a meaningful way is not something that is really
within the province of the amateur enthusiast. But of
course we have Jim Lesurf here, who far and away the most
active and expert in this respect of those currently on
URA.

This would be a joke. Speaking as the inventor of the ABX listening test
which has been probably *the* hottest topic in the history of audio when it
comes to "making evaluations and comparisons"... Then there is the audio
measurement work that was published on the web for about a decade as
www.pcavtech.com, a web site that in its day was very actively tracked and
mentioned on other influential web sites and magazines.

Andy was one, and Keith another. Both got very
rough and treatment.

Keith like Iain give far more rough treatment than they will ever get. I
give Keith points for actually getting his hands dirty with audio, and often
in positive ways. Unfortunately, he seems to need to take more personal
satisfaction from the group than he gives.

In the time I've been here Keith has dished out far more
"rough treatment" to others than he has received himself.

That's the problem with Keith. He's very active and entertaining with his
little experiments, but unfortunately he always wants to take credibility
away from others.

IIRC most of the shouting down was done by the
remarkably short-lived Pinkie/Arny double act,
Vinyl Grinder and Monkey, as they were known.

Iain and Keith both object strenuously when their claims are put to any
logical test. There is a reason - the facts don't back them up. Google
searching shows that "Vinyl Grinder" *never* showed up on UKRA until about
5 days ago.


I've been here quite a while, but maybe not long enough
to remember that one. In recent weeks, though, we've had
the Keith/Bill double act who have egged each other on to
come up with newer and ever more offensive nicknames for
those they choose to regard as being their "enemies". In
the short time he's been here Bill has become one of
URA's most prolific posters, yet the vast majority of his
posts have been either gratuitous insults, or pointless
"me too" comments.

Indeed.

I'm surprised that, whilst you are so
keen to complain about the "shouting down" that happened
in the distant past you have been silent about Bill's
current highly negative influence on URA. What hold does
he have over you? Or are worried that if you comment on
his crass behaviour he'll add you to his list of people
to insult?

I'm under the impression that Bill and Kitty are staunch defenders of Iain.
Fanciful posts like this suggest that Iain lives in a fantasy world, which
the three of them inhabit as one unhappy little family.

"Shouting Down" on URA
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in
message

"Iain Churches" wrote

Thinking back, there have been very few people
indeed on this group who were "active in audio",
by that I mean actually building things,amps and
speakers, and making evaluations and comparisons.


This is a pretty strange comment, particularly given its source, Iain.

AFAIK Iain himself has nearly zero actual hands-on involvement with audio.
I don't recall ever hearing about him personally soldering wires or parts,
cutting wood for enclosures or chassis, drilling and punching holes,
personally setting up mics or laying down mic cables, actually recording
a live performance by pressing the arm and record buttons, live mixing,
editing audio using a DAW, burning CDs for distribution to end users,
etc., etc. Nada.

ISTM that there are quite a lot of people here who build
things.

Interesting that later on Iain demonizes me by name, and yet in terms of
hands-on audio work, I am probably among the top 20% around here. I have
both/video audio production and audio evaluation and construction projects
going on all of the time.

Note all of the childish insults that particularly Iain has heaped on what
little he knows about my production work - at this point perhaps 100s of
derisive posts, many of which have been given instant "me too" approval by
Kitty and Bill. They know full well that by shouting others down they can
make their own efforts seem more important.

In recent months the group has had requests for help with
all sorts of problems that various posters have had with
construction projects. Maybe these aren't all "amps &
speakers", but there is a lot more to audio than those
two particular items.

Agreed.

Recently we've even had someone
building a valve-based audio mixer, does that not count
as being "active in audio" in your book?

Point of order, wasn't that discussion mostly on RAT? Not that it isn't
an interesting and challenging project in a retro sort of way.

As for "making evaluations and comparisons", doing that
in a meaningful way is not something that is really
within the province of the amateur enthusiast. But of
course we have Jim Lesurf here, who far and away the most
active and expert in this respect of those currently on
URA.

This would be a joke. Speaking as the inventor of the ABX listening test
which has been probably *the* hottest topic in the history of audio when
it comes to "making evaluations and comparisons"... Then there is the
audio measurement work that was published on the web for about a decade as
www.pcavtech.com, a web site that in its day was very actively tracked and
mentioned on other influential web sites and magazines.

Andy was one, and Keith another. Both got very
rough and treatment.

Keith like Iain give far more rough treatment than they will ever get. I
give Keith points for actually getting his hands dirty with audio, and
often in positive ways. Unfortunately, he seems to need to take more
personal satisfaction from the group than he gives.

In the time I've been here Keith has dished out far more
"rough treatment" to others than he has received himself.

That's the problem with Keith. He's very active and entertaining with his
little experiments, but unfortunately he always wants to take credibility
away from others.

IIRC most of the shouting down was done by the
remarkably short-lived Pinkie/Arny double act,
Vinyl Grinder and Monkey, as they were known.

Iain and Keith both object strenuously when their claims are put to any
logical test. There is a reason - the facts don't back them up. Google
searching shows that "Vinyl Grinder" *never* showed up on UKRA until
about 5 days ago.


I've been here quite a while, but maybe not long enough
to remember that one. In recent weeks, though, we've had
the Keith/Bill double act who have egged each other on to
come up with newer and ever more offensive nicknames for
those they choose to regard as being their "enemies". In
the short time he's been here Bill has become one of
URA's most prolific posters, yet the vast majority of his
posts have been either gratuitous insults, or pointless
"me too" comments.

Indeed.

I'm surprised that, whilst you are so
keen to complain about the "shouting down" that happened
in the distant past you have been silent about Bill's
current highly negative influence on URA. What hold does
he have over you? Or are worried that if you comment on
his crass behaviour he'll add you to his list of people
to insult?

I'm under the impression that Bill and Kitty are staunch defenders of
Iain. Fanciful posts like this suggest that Iain lives in a fantasy world,
which the three of them inhabit as one unhappy little family.



Disregarding the unutterably pathetic *failed netbully/posse leader blubbing
his eyes out* content of this extraordinary post for a moment, just how does
one 'shout someone down' in a text based newsgroup...??

Did anybody post any *audio links* I didn't get to see?

LOL!

"Shouting Down" on URA
 

"Keith G" wrote

snip Anus' whining


Disregarding the unutterably pathetic *failed netbully/posse leader
blubbing his eyes out* content of this extraordinary post for a moment,
just how does one 'shout someone down' in a text based newsgroup...??

Did anybody post any *audio links* I didn't get to see?

LOL!




And WTF is 'URA'???

Looks like an abbreviation for an infection of some sort....

"Shouting Down" on URA
 

Keith G wrote:

And WTF is 'URA'???

It's a variety of nium.

Ian

"Shouting Down" on URA
 

"Ian Iveson" wrote in message
...
Keith G wrote:

And WTF is 'URA'???

It's a variety of nium.

Ian



Wot's in a nium?

"Shouting Down" on URA
 

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in
message

As for "making evaluations and comparisons", doing that
in a meaningful way is not something that is really
within the province of the amateur enthusiast. But of
course we have Jim Lesurf here, who far and away the most
active and expert in this respect of those currently on
URA.

This would be a joke.

It's no joke. Jim has a real depth of understanding about audio, you don't.
It's that simple.

Speaking as the inventor of the ABX listening test which has been probably
*the* hottest topic in the history of audio when it comes to "making
evaluations and comparisons"..

Making evaluations and comparisons isn't about some gimmicky "test", it's
about having a real understanding what you are doing and closely controlling
the variables.

David.

"Shouting Down" on URA
 

In article , David Looser
wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message


As for "making evaluations and comparisons", doing that in a
meaningful way is not something that is really within the province of
the amateur enthusiast. But of course we have Jim Lesurf here, who
far and away the most active and expert in this respect of those
currently on URA.

This would be a joke.

It's no joke. Jim has a real depth of understanding about audio, you
don't. It's that simple.

FWIW I'd just as soon not have my name dragged into arguments of this kind.
I don't think they make a lot of sense. And TBH I do think that methods
like ABX can be very useful. So I would not wish to belittle or dismiss
Arny, or indeed many other people's work. There are many serious audio pros
who have done far more than I to establish ways to assess audio on a
reliable basis. Alas, most of the public don't know about them as they tend
to only appear at professional meetings and journals.

Speaking as the inventor of the ABX listening test which has been
probably *the* hottest topic in the history of audio when it comes to
"making evaluations and comparisons"..

Making evaluations and comparisons isn't about some gimmicky "test",
it's about having a real understanding what you are doing and closely
controlling the variables.

Arny can ( and no doubt will :-) ) speak up in his own defence. But again I
would dissociate myself from the idea that ABX is a "gimmicky test". AIUI
it is, indeed, based on understanding and trying to deal with some of the
basic factors I referred to above. i.e. it is a useful method for dealing
with some of the methodological flaws which can be committed in 'informal'
tests. If in doubt about this I'd suggest looking at the serious work by
many audio professionals into the topic of how to run evaluations in a
decently controlled and assessable manner.

Like all such methods, it does need to be applied with due care and
understanding by the users. But that isn't a flaw with ABX, or various
other methodological/experimental techniques.

So if you wish to argue with Arny or anyone else on a "my Dad's bigger than
your Dad" I'd prefer not to be chosen as a "Dad" on either end of the
inequality. :-)

If someone appreciates work I've done. I am pleased to have been thought
helpful. And I don't expect to please everyone. But I don't regard this as
a competition, let alone a beauty contest!

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Shouting Down" on URA
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , David Looser
wrote:
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"David Looser" wrote in message


As for "making evaluations and comparisons", doing that in a
meaningful way is not something that is really within the province of
the amateur enthusiast. But of course we have Jim Lesurf here, who
far and away the most active and expert in this respect of those
currently on URA.

This would be a joke.

It's no joke. Jim has a real depth of understanding about audio, you
don't. It's that simple.

FWIW I'd just as soon not have my name dragged into arguments of this
kind.

OK Jim, point taken.

David.