I found a sleeve amongst my 78s with some interesting text:

PATHÉ'S DISC

Important Notice
1. PATHÉ'S Discs do away with the necessity of a needle!
2. PATHÉ'S Discs must be used in conjunction with Pathé's special
sapphire diaphragm.
3. PATHÉ'S Discs begin from the centre.
(Place the sapphire point in the first groove after the rim.)
4. PATHÉ'S Discs should be heard at a speed of from 90 to 100
revolutions per minute.
5. Every good Disc machine will take PATHÉ'S Discs, the diaphragm only,
requires changing.

Unfortunately the disc (11.5") is missing.
Anyone heard of these before?


--
Eiron.

In article ,
"Brian Gaff" writes:
Yes, lots of times. Often transcriptions of historical events and all sorts.
Very odd selection.

I do not have any, but they are collectable by those who like that sort of
stuff.

Don't understand the do away with the needle, as its still played by one,
but maybe they choose to call it something else to make it seem special.

I suspect "needle" here refers to the type you were supposed to replace
after playing each record. Early needles were soft metal single use items,
for longest life of the recording surface.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Brian Gaff" writes:
Yes, lots of times. Often transcriptions of historical events and all
sorts.
Very odd selection.

I do not have any, but they are collectable by those who like that sort
of
stuff.

Don't understand the do away with the needle, as its still played by
one,
but maybe they choose to call it something else to make it seem special.

I suspect "needle" here refers to the type you were supposed to replace
after playing each record. Early needles were soft metal single use items,
for longest life of the recording surface.

Yes it probably does. Thorn needles were also available
from the very beginning. These were much more surface
friendly, and sounded good too. They were intended for
one playing only. Some enterprising accessories manufacturer
soon brought out a tiny hand-cranked "belt sander" for
re-sharpening. I have one of these marked "Imperial"
manufactured by The Crystalate Gramophone Co England
circa 1920.

Crystalate (which later became The Decca Record Compay Ltd)
claimed to be the oldest recording company in Gt Britain.

Iain

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

I suspect "needle" here refers to the type you were supposed to replace
after playing each record. Early needles were soft metal single use items,
for longest life of the recording surface.

Indeed, the firm instruction "Use needles once only" was first
seen long before it developed more sinister connotations.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article , "Brian Gaff"
writes:


I suspect "needle" here refers to the type you were supposed to
replace after playing each record. Early needles were soft metal
single use items, for longest life of the recording surface.

Yes it probably does. Thorn needles were also available from the very
beginning.

FWIW I still have some boxes of three types of thorn needle. To use with my
ancient DECCA portable that has a 'sock-in-it' volume control. Gives the
best tone and volume with a large woollen sock of the kind I used to use
when walking/climbing decades ago. :-)

These were much more surface friendly, and sounded good too.

They sound OK. However I can recall reading articles that claimed that the
thorn needles actually did *more* damage than steel needles. This was
because they are a poor heat conductor so became very hot and the heat
damaged the groove. The claim for steel needles was that the first few
revolutions polished them into shape. Indeed, I think I have also read
claims that the 'only use once' idea was a bad one promoted by the sellers
of needles since once 'polished to shape' they worked fine for a number of
sides.

That said I also recall stories of how railway works used to keep
re-grinding the steel 'types' on wagon wheels to get them back to a neat
conical shape... until someone found that the 'worn' shape actually caused
less 'hunting' and other problems!

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article , "Brian Gaff"
writes:


I suspect "needle" here refers to the type you were supposed to
replace after playing each record. Early needles were soft metal
single use items, for longest life of the recording surface.

Yes it probably does. Thorn needles were also available from the very
beginning.

FWIW I still have some boxes of three types of thorn needle. To use with
my
ancient DECCA portable that has a 'sock-in-it' volume control. Gives the
best tone and volume with a large woollen sock of the kind I used to use
when walking/climbing decades ago. :-)

That "sock in it" volume control was also used in recording. I recall
may interesting conversations with Charles Glennister who was with
Crystalate/Decca in the 20s and 30s. He told how the recording
technician held a large ball of angora wool which he partly inserted
into the horn of the recording machine for ssfz passages to prevent
overmodulation.

This may well be the origin of the term "pad" which we use to this
day for an attenuator.

These were much more surface friendly, and sounded good too.

They sound OK.

To my ear they sound superior to steel needles.

However I can recall reading articles that claimed that the
thorn needles actually did *more* damage than steel needles. This was
because they are a poor heat conductor so became very hot and the heat
damaged the groove.

That seems likely. I have seen transcriptions from 78rm metals were
the tip if the thorn needle tip has ben blackened with the heat.


The claim for steel needles was that the first few
revolutions polished them into shape. Indeed, I think I have also read
claims that the 'only use once' idea was a bad one promoted by the sellers
of needles since once 'polished to shape' they worked fine for a number of
sides.

Interesting. People who do disc transcriptions professionally tend to use
thorn or steel "trailer" needles, But one chap I know who has a large
supply of "Decca soft" steel needles, uses them only ones, before they are
transferred to the "used" tin.

That said I also recall stories of how railway works used to keep
re-grinding the steel 'types' on wagon wheels to get them back to a neat
conical shape... until someone found that the 'worn' shape actually caused
less 'hunting' and other problems!

My 1920s belt sander seems to have had very little use.

Iain

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


Yes it probably does. Thorn needles were also available from the
very beginning.

FWIW I still have some boxes of three types of thorn needle. To use
with my ancient DECCA portable that has a 'sock-in-it' volume control.
Gives the best tone and volume with a large woollen sock of the kind I
used to use when walking/climbing decades ago. :-)

That "sock in it" volume control was also used in recording. I recall
may interesting conversations with Charles Glennister who was with
Crystalate/Decca in the 20s and 30s. He told how the recording
technician held a large ball of angora wool which he partly inserted
into the horn of the recording machine for ssfz passages to prevent
overmodulation.

This may well be the origin of the term "pad" which we use to this day
for an attenuator.

One of the most surprising articles I read was a reprint in 'The
Gramophone' from their early days. This was an article on a 'filter' for
acoustic gramophones and phonographs that consisted of a length of soft
rubber tube filled with... dried split peas! This was said to "improve the
tone' of the sound.

I wonder if any modern connecting cable makers will eventually realise they
should be making their cables with dried split peas... 8-]



These were much more surface friendly, and sounded good too.

They sound OK.

To my ear they sound superior to steel needles.

I'd agree on my very limited experience of such. But in honestly all the
78s (sic) I've played were always worn to boogery long before I got them.
Hence they may have had vastly more HF distortion than a disc in good
condition. So I've no idea what a mint condition 78 would sound like on an
acoustic machine using different types of needle. The closest I can get is
the old 'Prima Voce' recordings that Numbus did with their fancy machine.
No idea what 'needles' they used, though.

I used to know someone with a huge collection of pre-electric discs. But he
plays them with a Shure MM and an electronic setup. So not really the same
sort of thing. I doubt he'd risk his discs on an acoustic machine.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...


Yes it probably does. Thorn needles were also available from the
very beginning.

FWIW I still have some boxes of three types of thorn needle. To use
with my ancient DECCA portable that has a 'sock-in-it' volume control.
Gives the best tone and volume with a large woollen sock of the kind I
used to use when walking/climbing decades ago. :-)

That "sock in it" volume control was also used in recording. I recall
may interesting conversations with Charles Glennister who was with
Crystalate/Decca in the 20s and 30s. He told how the recording
technician held a large ball of angora wool which he partly inserted
into the horn of the recording machine for ssfz passages to prevent
overmodulation.

This may well be the origin of the term "pad" which we use to this day
for an attenuator.

One of the most surprising articles I read was a reprint in 'The
Gramophone' from their early days. This was an article on a 'filter' for
acoustic gramophones and phonographs that consisted of a length of soft
rubber tube filled with... dried split peas! This was said to "improve the
tone' of the sound.

Split peas wrapped in hessian and tied with a thong so that the player could
grasp the tied corners, were also used as trumpet and trombone mutes
in the 20s and 30s, and were known as bean bags.


I wonder if any modern connecting cable makers will eventually realise
they
should be making their cables with dried split peas... 8-]

Ssshh! There might be a business opportunity the-)))

They sound OK.

To my ear they sound superior to steel needles.

I'd agree on my very limited experience of such. But in honestly all the
78s (sic) I've played were always worn to boogery long before I got them.
Hence they may have had vastly more HF distortion than a disc in good
condition. So I've no idea what a mint condition 78 would sound like on an
acoustic machine using different types of needle. The closest I can get is
the old 'Prima Voce' recordings that Numbus did with their fancy machine.
No idea what 'needles' they used, though.

In my student days I was very intersted in pre ad early-electrical
recording, and was fortunate, through Decca, to have access to
some early recording machines. We actually did some sessions,
including the original version of Ellington's "Black and Tan Fatasy"
on an acoustic disc recorder with two horns. It was fascinating.
The balance and layout were critical.

In many instances, due to limited lf response, a sousaphone (or a tuba)
was used in addition to a string bass, and the more clearly audible banjo
was
preferable to the not-so-easily discernible guitar.

I used to know someone with a huge collection of pre-electric discs. But
he
plays them with a Shure MM and an electronic setup. So not really the same
sort of thing. I doubt he'd risk his discs on an acoustic machine.

Most of the people I know who do archive or shellac transcriptions
professionally, use an acoustic gramophone, some with a large
wooden exponential horn on its own stand fitted closely over the
voice box. They record the result with a large diaphram Neumann.
This is considered by many to give source material preferable to that
from a modern turntable with a 78rpm course groove stylus.

Iain