Daft question but someone might know.
 

"David Looser" wrote in
message

"Arny Krueger" wrote

If a receiver is what everyman knows and recognizes, why
not call it a receiver and not an amplifier?

Because it's the amplifier part that is relevant to this
discussion. (sigh!) The term "AV amplifier" will cover an
"AV receiver" because a receiver is simply an amplifier
with a tuner (which many people don't want and won't use)
in it.

I don't recall ever seeing what I recognized to be an A/V amplifier. I've
seen pictures of them and maybe I've seen them at hifi shows. I've even
owned an A/V receiver!

Talking about sales volumes, have you noticed that
virtually all AV amplifiers (receivers!) are one-box
efforts?

Of course.

If you want to keep the power amps physically
separate to make the whole thing more manageable you are
limited to a tiny number of models at silly prices.

Putting everything into one box cuts costs and reduces
the skill level required to make it work.

The economics of receivers that don't have amplifiers
built-in is such that it can make economic sense to buy
a reciever that has separate preamp outs and amp ins and
just don't use the on-premesis amps, as opposed to doing
something stupid like buy a signal processor that lacks
amps.

Unwanted power amps (and their power supply) add
*considerable* unnecessary size and weight to the unit.

Ironic then that accepting power amps as part of the receiver package can
signficantly cut the cost of obtaining the desired function.

I think the lesson is that economies of scale can be quite impressive. The
development, tooling and sales costs don't increase that much when the sales
double.

Manufacturing is now so efficient that added complexity is accepted to
obtain other benefits. Witness the disappearance of the iron core wall wart,
which is now almost universally replaced by a switchmode power supply that
is smaller, lighter, more efficient, and presumably even less costly to
make.

Ever take the base of a CFL apart? Compare the complexity what is in the
base of a CFL (might include an IC with significant active device count)
with what is in the base of a regular incadescent lamp (2 short wires).

If LED development continues at its current measured pace there could be a
market for a sequel to the CFL that is based on the kind of plasma-based
light source that is used for stage lighting. Very efficient with a
wonderful spectral balance that LEDs and CFLs can only dream about. Plasma
bulbs are fairly simple themselves. The trick is controlling their power
source.

With high-efficiency output stages and switchmode power supplies, the cost,
size and weight of power amplification can be and has been signficantly
reduced.

Basically, this is just the next logical step in the well-justified
trivialization of power amps. At one point the power amp was the largest,
heaviest, least reliable, and most expensive part of a good audio system.
Once upon a time they even sounded different! Today, power amps are well on
their way to becoming add-on, throw-away, something that is accepted
usually based on well-placed faith, in order to obtain what comes with it.

I see that even low-cost producers such as Behringer are offering heavy-duty
power amps (by consumer receiver standards) that are based on switchmode
power supplies and high-efficiency output stages. I see signs that
high-volume consumer electronics are following suit.

I don't have a surround system, but many of my friends who have surround
systems and use powered speakers and/or separate power amplfiers have for
economic reasons obtained an A/V receiver. They don't connect the power amps
to anything, they run their system off of the receivers preamp outputs. I've
even seen people use simple gadgets that reduce the voltage of a power amp
to a line-level signal. The car sound catalogs have them, but they work at
home.

I can't see why you think it "stupid" to want to buy a
small, light unit that does what you want, rather than a
large, heavy thing that does a load of things that you
don't want, don't need, and just add size, weight and
complexity.

Look at the price tags. IMO it is stupid to pay more to obtain the same or
less function and performance if the package is manageable.

Daft question but someone might know.
 

"Rob" wrote in message
eb.com

I currently have just stereo speakers/amp. What's
the best way to bolt on rear/centre speakers to this sort
of arrangement?

Sell what you have or demote it to a less critical use. Buy an AV receiver.

Daft question but someone might know.
 

In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:


I think the lesson is that economies of scale can be quite impressive.
The development, tooling and sales costs don't increase that much when
the sales double.

Tell me about it! I'm trying to find a UK supplier who will sell small
quantities of items like Toko-type low-pass filters! Countless similar
filters are in all kinds of tuners, etc.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Daft question but someone might know.
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote

I'm not sure as I've not needed one myself, but you may be able to get a
box that passes though HDMI whilst extracting the audio. If as spdif, you
can then use a DAC. IIRC The CYP one I've seen also provides a sync delay.


I've been looking for units that will extract "HD" audio from an HDMI stream
(whilst passing on the video) and found little on the market (except for
bloody great big AV receivers with all sorts of stuff I don't need and don't
want) The only such unit from CYP that I'm aware of is the CLUX-11SA, which
doesn't have a delay, so I was interested in your claim that CYP make one
*with* a sync delay.

The CLUX-11SA converts 2ch, 5.1 or 7.1 LPCM to analogue (most BD players
will convert lossless multi-channel Dolby or DTS to LPCM if set up to do
so), but has neither a sync delay, nor does it have surround delay, and
since the output is analogue it would be necessary to re-convert it to
digital in order to apply such delays. The CLUX-11SA does have an optical
SPDIF output, but that will only cope with 2ch LPCM, AC3 DD or "lossy" 5.1
DTS.

If the BD player is set-up to output multi-channel audio in the HDMI stream
as LPCM the optical output of the CLUX is just the L & R channels, which
makes for interesting viewing of films with 5.1 or 7.1 since the centre
channel which contains virtually all the dialogue is missing! On the other
hand if the BD player is set up to output multi-channel audio in it's native
format then there is no audio output (analogue or optical) at all from the
CLUX when the BD audio is lossless Dolby or DTS.

David.

Daft question but someone might know.
 

In article , David Looser
wrote:
"Jim Lesurf" wrote

I'm not sure as I've not needed one myself, but you may be able to get
a box that passes though HDMI whilst extracting the audio. If as
spdif, you can then use a DAC. IIRC The CYP one I've seen also
provides a sync delay.


I've been looking for units that will extract "HD" audio from an HDMI
stream (whilst passing on the video) and found little on the market
(except for bloody great big AV receivers with all sorts of stuff I
don't need and don't want) The only such unit from CYP that I'm aware
of is the CLUX-11SA, which doesn't have a delay, so I was interested in
your claim that CYP make one *with* a sync delay.

My "claim" wrt CYP was that they make a DAC with a delay. I think I've seen
it listed in the CPC catalogues.

I also said that you *may* be able to get a HDMI-audio extractor. Since I
don't use HDMI I've not bothered to note any. I'd assume that these would
follow the source - so spdif for stereo and 'bitsteam' (or whatever the
term) for multichannel. The DVD players/recorders I use all let you set the
output to 'all spdif' or allow bistream for multichannel. I just set to
spdif.

No idea who (if anyone) makes an spdif extractor from HDMI with a delay.
And my comment was for stereo since that is normal for UK SD TV. Plus TBH I
have no interest personally in 'surround sound'. Hard enough to get good
stereo!

If the BD player i

FWIW I have no personal interest in BD or HD video at present. So have no
idea what is available in that area. I also (as I think I wrote) use a CRT
so don't have problems with synch.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Daft question but someone might know.
 

In article ,
Alan Crowder wrote:
Having looked at the rear of my TV i find no audio outputs at all, only
inputs, but there is an optical output, i am informed that this can
indeed be sent to a suitable Amp and the sound exited to speakers, just
to find a suitable amp now.

Many TV sets will have an audio output on their SCART sockets. Some even
allow this to be selected in the menu - for dubbing purposes, say between
a PVR and DVD recorder. Or just be the TV audio out. You'd need to modify
a SCART lead, though, if all yours are in use.

--
*A chicken crossing the road is poultry in motion.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Daft question but someone might know.
 

In article , Jim Lesurf
scribeth thus
In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:


I think the lesson is that economies of scale can be quite impressive.
The development, tooling and sales costs don't increase that much when
the sales double.

Tell me about it! I'm trying to find a UK supplier who will sell small
quantities of items like Toko-type low-pass filters! Countless similar
filters are in all kinds of tuners, etc.


Not much help but..

There is one around seem to remember he's out near Colchester if a come
across the name I'll mail it over;!..
Slainte,

Jim


--
Tony Sayer

Daft question but someone might know.
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message

In article
, Arny
Krueger wrote:


I think the lesson is that economies of scale can be
quite impressive. The development, tooling and sales
costs don't increase that much when the sales double.

Tell me about it! I'm trying to find a UK supplier who
will sell small quantities of items like Toko-type
low-pass filters! Countless similar filters are in all
kinds of tuners, etc.

Must be legacy technology. The FM tuner in my Sansa Clip+ can't have many
coils, given that they fit the FM stereo tuner (biggest weakness - no
dedicated antenna terminals), a computer (with DSP), EPROM (firmware), two
banks of gigabytes of RAM, headphone amps, jacks, color display, pushbuttons
and a battery in less than a cubic inch.

Daft question but someone might know.
 

In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message

In article , Arny
Krueger wrote:


I think the lesson is that economies of scale can be quite
impressive. The development, tooling and sales costs don't increase
that much when the sales double.

Tell me about it! I'm trying to find a UK supplier who will sell small
quantities of items like Toko-type low-pass filters! Countless similar
filters are in all kinds of tuners, etc.

Must be legacy technology. The FM tuner in my Sansa Clip+ can't have
many coils, given that they fit the FM stereo tuner (biggest weakness -
no dedicated antenna terminals), a computer (with DSP), EPROM
(firmware), two banks of gigabytes of RAM, headphone amps, jacks, color
display, pushbuttons and a battery in less than a cubic inch.

So how does it filter/suppress the 19kHz pilot tone and the remains of the
38kHz DSBSC after stereo demodulation?

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Daft question but someone might know.
 

In article , tony sayer

wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf
scribeth thus
In article , Arny
Krueger wrote:


I think the lesson is that economies of scale can be quite
impressive. The development, tooling and sales costs don't increase
that much when the sales double.

Tell me about it! I'm trying to find a UK supplier who will sell small
quantities of items like Toko-type low-pass filters! Countless similar
filters are in all kinds of tuners, etc.


Not much help but..

There is one around seem to remember he's out near Colchester if a come
across the name I'll mail it over;!..

Thanks. :-)

FWIW I did find a "tokouk" email address on the Toko webpages. But when I
tried sending an email it gave an automated "this address is not in use".
So much for them keeping their contact info up to date!

I'd have no problem finding someone if I'm willing to buy, say, 5000. The
snag is how anyone would buy one or two...

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html