X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

I just came across this today while looking for John Cage records on
Amazon:

www.catm.co.uk

Some professional musicians are getting fed up with the amateurs on X-
Factor getting the Christmas No.1, so they've put out a recording of
John Cage's 4'33", this is a piece composed in 1952 which is for any
number of musicians to remain silent for 4 minutes and 33 seconds.

Only seems to be available as a download, it would be more effective
as a CD or even better on vinyl (you would get the crackle etc).

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

Only seems to be available as a download


Yes, trouble is, in MP3 format, which for many lovers of upmarket hi-
fi is a compromise too far on sound quality.

Question is, if you fail to download it and instead download nothing,
does this compromise copyright law.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

On 17/12/2010 20:38, allantracy wrote:
Only seems to be available as a download


Yes, trouble is, in MP3 format, which for many lovers of upmarket hi-
fi is a compromise too far on sound quality.

Question is, if you fail to download it and instead download nothing,
does this compromise copyright law.

So it's not available in uncompressed 16 or 24 bit format?
Then I won't be buying it.

--
Eiron.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article , Eiron
wrote:
On 17/12/2010 20:38, allantracy wrote:
Only seems to be available as a download


Yes, trouble is, in MP3 format, which for many lovers of upmarket hi-
fi is a compromise too far on sound quality.

Question is, if you fail to download it and instead download nothing,
does this compromise copyright law.

So it's not available in uncompressed 16 or 24 bit format? Then I won't
be buying it.

Weird as it sounds pun your point is a good one. :-)

I wonder how effeciently FLAC would compress it... ;-

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

On 17/12/2010 20:38, allantracy wrote:

Only seems to be available as a download


Yes, trouble is, in MP3 format, which for many lovers of upmarket hi-
fi is a compromise too far on sound quality.

Question is, if you fail to download it and instead download nothing,
does this compromise copyright law.



http://classicalconvert.com/2007/07/...-on-cages-433/

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

On 2010\12\17 18:51, wrote:
I just came across this today while looking for John Cage records on
Amazon:

www.catm.co.uk

Some professional musicians are getting fed up with the amateurs on X-
Factor getting the Christmas No.1, so they've put out a recording of
John Cage's 4'33", this is a piece composed in 1952 which is for any
number of musicians to remain silent for 4 minutes and 33 seconds.

Only seems to be available as a download, it would be more effective
as a CD or even better on vinyl (you would get the crackle etc).

You could always buy this on vinyl...
http://www.discogs.com/No-Artist-The...elease/1421098

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article
,
wrote:
Some professional musicians are getting fed up with the amateurs on X-
Factor getting the Christmas No.1, so they've put out a recording of
John Cage's 4'33", this is a piece composed in 1952 which is for any
number of musicians to remain silent for 4 minutes and 33 seconds.

Of course you never get true silence with people in a room. They breathe
and move - even when seated or standing still.

Many years ago I was doing some location recording in a real courtroom on
a Sunday - when it wasn't in use. We actually had the use of two near
identical courts - one for the actual filming and the other used as a sort
of green room for the 50 or so extras.
I recorded a wild track of those extras - no chat. Just meant to be
listening to what was going on in the court. Although it was central
London, the room was pretty well insulated, so only very distant traffic
sounds.

I've lost count of how many times that wildtrack has been used for other
things.

--
*For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

On 18/12/2010 10:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
Some professional musicians are getting fed up with the amateurs on X-
Factor getting the Christmas No.1, so they've put out a recording of
John Cage's 4'33", this is a piece composed in 1952 which is for any
number of musicians to remain silent for 4 minutes and 33 seconds.

Of course you never get true silence with people in a room. They breathe
and move - even when seated or standing still.

It will probably be normalized to 0dB when played on the radio. :-)

--
Eiron.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

" wrote in
message
...
I just came across this today while looking for John Cage records on
Amazon:

www.catm.co.uk

Some professional musicians are getting fed up with the amateurs on X-
Factor getting the Christmas No.1, so they've put out a recording of
John Cage's 4'33", this is a piece composed in 1952 which is for any
number of musicians to remain silent for 4 minutes and 33 seconds.

Only seems to be available as a download, it would be more effective
as a CD or even better on vinyl (you would get the crackle etc).



Just don't buy it on magnetic tape or the silence will 'print through' from
the next layer of tape down if it is stored long enough!

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article , Eiron
wrote:
On 18/12/2010 10:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
Some professional musicians are getting fed up with the amateurs on
X- Factor getting the Christmas No.1, so they've put out a recording
of John Cage's 4'33", this is a piece composed in 1952 which is for
any number of musicians to remain silent for 4 minutes and 33 seconds.

Of course you never get true silence with people in a room. They
breathe and move - even when seated or standing still.

It will probably be normalized to 0dB when played on the radio. :-)

I suspect you are correct. Indeed, if it is released on CD as well as
download...

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Just don't buy it on magnetic tape or the silence will 'print through'
from the next layer of tape down if it is stored long enough!

Not a problem with digital tape. ;-)

--
*One nice thing about egotists: they don't talk about other people.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
Just don't buy it on magnetic tape or the silence will 'print through'
from the next layer of tape down if it is stored long enough!

Not a problem with digital tape. ;-)



Is that so? I wouldn't have thought it would be any different to
analogue...??

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

On 18/12/2010 12:36, Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Keith G wrote:

Just don't buy it on magnetic tape or the silence will 'print through'
from the next layer of tape down if it is stored long enough!

Not a problem with digital tape. ;-)

Is that so? I wouldn't have thought it would be any different to analogue...??

In principle, it isn't. The magnetic signal can be degraded by being reduced
in amplitude, whether in analogue or digital.

But the digital effect would not be to turn down the volume (as with analogue
tape). It would be manifested as a perfect signal until the degradation
reached a certain point, when the signal would become incoherent. Just as
happens with a TV aerial being used to recieve and transfer digital
transmission into a digital TV. Or like with a CD with a fingerprint of
strawberry jam on it.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

On 19/12/2010 12:27 a.m., Jim Lesurf wrote:
In , Eiron
wrote:
On 18/12/2010 10:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
Some professional musicians are getting fed up with the amateurs on
X- Factor getting the Christmas No.1, so they've put out a recording
of John Cage's 4'33", this is a piece composed in 1952 which is for
any number of musicians to remain silent for 4 minutes and 33 seconds.

Of course you never get true silence with people in a room. They
breathe and move - even when seated or standing still.

It will probably be normalized to 0dB when played on the radio. :-)

I suspect you are correct. Indeed, if it is released on CD as well as
download...

Slainte,

Jim

Jim, now wouldn't it be the ideal piece to let loose on the "vinyl is
better than CD" brigade? It would also be interesting to compare how each
genre is mastered/ pressed :)......... Oooh! and what about DBT just to put
the pressure on!

Mike

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article ,
JNugent wrote:
On 18/12/2010 12:36, Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Keith G wrote:

Just don't buy it on magnetic tape or the silence will 'print
through' from the next layer of tape down if it is stored long
enough!

Not a problem with digital tape. ;-)

Is that so? I wouldn't have thought it would be any different to
analogue...??

In principle, it isn't. The magnetic signal can be degraded by being
reduced in amplitude, whether in analogue or digital.

I've not noticed an analogue tape which suffers from print through being
reduced in level. The top end may be slightly lower than when recorded,
though.

But the digital effect would not be to turn down the volume (as with
analogue tape). It would be manifested as a perfect signal until the
degradation reached a certain point, when the signal would become
incoherent. Just as happens with a TV aerial being used to recieve and
transfer digital transmission into a digital TV. Or like with a CD with
a fingerprint of strawberry jam on it.

The sort of level of print through means in practice digital systems
ignore it. Or that's my experience.

--
*I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

"JNugent" wrote in message
...
On 18/12/2010 12:36, Keith G wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Keith G wrote:

Just don't buy it on magnetic tape or the silence will 'print through'
from the next layer of tape down if it is stored long enough!

Not a problem with digital tape. ;-)

Is that so? I wouldn't have thought it would be any different to
analogue...??

In principle, it isn't. The magnetic signal can be degraded by being
reduced in amplitude, whether in analogue or digital.

But the digital effect would not be to turn down the volume (as with
analogue tape). It would be manifested as a perfect signal until the
degradation reached a certain point, when the signal would become
incoherent. Just as happens with a TV aerial being used to recieve and
transfer digital transmission into a digital TV. Or like with a CD with a
fingerprint of strawberry jam on it.



The biggest problem with digital is that it's all or nothing and when DAB
radio craps out it makes the most hideous noise followed by silence.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The biggest problem with digital is that it's all or nothing and when
DAB radio craps out it makes the most hideous noise followed by silence.

Dunno why DAB is so bad in this respect. FreeView audio just mutes if it
loses the signal. My DAB car radio switches to FM. ;-)

--
*When the going gets tough, the tough take a coffee break *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

On 18/12/2010 23:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

wrote:
Keith G wrote:
"Dave Plowman wrote:
Keith wrote:

Just don't buy it on magnetic tape or the silence will 'print
through' from the next layer of tape down if it is stored long
enough!

Not a problem with digital tape. ;-)

Is that so? I wouldn't have thought it would be any different to
analogue...??

In principle, it isn't. The magnetic signal can be degraded by being
reduced in amplitude, whether in analogue or digital.

I've not noticed an analogue tape which suffers from print through being
reduced in level. The top end may be slightly lower than when recorded,
though.

The effect from analogue print-through in audio is well-known. It is
manifested as a post-or pre-echo of the signal as the tape next to the bit
with the original signal passes the replay head. Pre-echo has been known to
transfer onto vinyl disc when transferred from a master tape with high-level
signal which has not been stored "tail out" (post-echo being seen as better
than pre-echo). You could hear a ghostly image of the intro a second or so
before the "proper" start.

But the digital effect would not be to turn down the volume (as with
analogue tape). It would be manifested as a perfect signal until the
degradation reached a certain point, when the signal would become
incoherent. Just as happens with a TV aerial being used to recieve and
transfer digital transmission into a digital TV. Or like with a CD with
a fingerprint of strawberry jam on it.

The sort of level of print through means in practice digital systems
ignore it. Or that's my experience.

I don't have much experience with digital tape. I do have a nowadays-unused
DCC machine (and about four DCC cassettes) but never owned a DAT recorder. I
do have a digital tape video-cam, but can't say that I've either used it much
or noticed any problems.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article , Mike Coatham
wrote:
On 19/12/2010 12:27 a.m., Jim Lesurf wrote:
In , Eiron
wrote:
On 18/12/2010 10:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
Some professional musicians are getting fed up with the amateurs on
X- Factor getting the Christmas No.1, so they've put out a
recording of John Cage's 4'33", this is a piece composed in 1952
which is for any number of musicians to remain silent for 4 minutes
and 33 seconds.

Of course you never get true silence with people in a room. They
breathe and move - even when seated or standing still.

It will probably be normalized to 0dB when played on the radio. :-)

I suspect you are correct. Indeed, if it is released on CD as well as
download...

Slainte,

Jim

Jim, now wouldn't it be the ideal piece to let loose on the "vinyl is
better than CD" brigade? It would also be interesting to compare how
each genre is mastered/ pressed :)......... Oooh! and what about DBT
just to put the pressure on!

If someone can provide me with copies sold on CD, LP, etc, I'll do the
measurements and post the results. They may interest the 'silent
majority'... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , JNugent
wrote:


But the digital effect would not be to turn down the volume (as with
analogue tape). It would be manifested as a perfect signal until the
degradation reached a certain point, when the signal would become
incoherent. Just as happens with a TV aerial being used to recieve and
transfer digital transmission into a digital TV. Or like with a CD
with a fingerprint of strawberry jam on it.

The sort of level of print through means in practice digital systems
ignore it. Or that's my experience.

I'm not sure if digital magnetic recordings would print though in the same
way as analogue. This is because I suspect the magnetic material is a
different formulation and is driven into saturation. But the more you
examine the behaviour of magnetic recording and the magnetic properties of
the materials, the weirder they turn out to be, so I could easily be wrong!
:-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

"JNugent" wrote

I don't have much experience with digital tape. I do have a
nowadays-unused DCC machine (and about four DCC cassettes) but never owned
a DAT recorder. I do have a digital tape video-cam, but can't say that
I've either used it much or noticed any problems.


I had a fair bit of experience of RDAT back in the 1990s, and to be honest I
hated it. The tape was so thin that it would sometimes get tangled in the
works, tapes sometimes wouldn't play back on machines other than the one
they were recorded on, archived tapes would be found to have periodic
drop-out leading to the playback machine muting, etc. I much prefered the
Betamax-PCM recorders which we had used previously, but these days I'd steer
clear of any tape-based digital recording systems. Disc based, or better
still solid-state, recorders are far-far better IMO.

David.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article ,
JNugent wrote:
I've not noticed an analogue tape which suffers from print through
being reduced in level. The top end may be slightly lower than when
recorded, though.

The effect from analogue print-through in audio is well-known. It is
manifested as a post-or pre-echo of the signal as the tape next to the
bit with the original signal passes the replay head. Pre-echo has been
known to transfer onto vinyl disc when transferred from a master tape
with high-level signal which has not been stored "tail out" (post-echo
being seen as better than pre-echo). You could hear a ghostly image of
the intro a second or so before the "proper" start.

Pro audio tapes should have a line up section before the start of the
actual programme material. This is a set of reference tones. That's why I
stated I'd not noticed a level drop on a tape suffering from print through.

It's also good practice to store tapes 'tail out'. This helps prevent
print through at the start of something. In theory, at least. However, you
can insert leader tape before the start of the mod - or between tracks.
This ensures as near silence as you can get.

--
*A dog's not just for Christmas, it's alright on a Friday night too*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
The sort of level of print through means in practice digital systems
ignore it. Or that's my experience.

I'm not sure if digital magnetic recordings would print though in the
same way as analogue. This is because I suspect the magnetic material is
a different formulation and is driven into saturation. But the more you
examine the behaviour of magnetic recording and the magnetic properties
of the materials, the weirder they turn out to be, so I could easily be
wrong!
:-)

Indeed. But as I said I've used many of the pro digital audio formats
which record to tape and never experienced print through. So saying their
are (were) a bewildering variety of formats out there so I can't be sure
they were all equally as immune.

--
*My dog can lick anyone

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

On 19/12/2010 14:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
I've not noticed an analogue tape which suffers from print through
being reduced in level. The top end may be slightly lower than when
recorded, though.

The effect from analogue print-through in audio is well-known. It is
manifested as a post-or pre-echo of the signal as the tape next to the
bit with the original signal passes the replay head. Pre-echo has been
known to transfer onto vinyl disc when transferred from a master tape
with high-level signal which has not been stored "tail out" (post-echo
being seen as better than pre-echo). You could hear a ghostly image of
the intro a second or so before the "proper" start.

Pro audio tapes should have a line up section before the start of the
actual programme material. This is a set of reference tones. That's why I
stated I'd not noticed a level drop on a tape suffering from print through.

It's also good practice to store tapes 'tail out'. This helps prevent
print through at the start of something. In theory, at least. However, you
can insert leader tape before the start of the mod - or between tracks.
This ensures as near silence as you can get.

Gawd, this thread is dragging the depths of the memory...

I have a couple of half-track stereo masters on 1/4" tape (7" spools),
recorded late-seventies / early-eighties, which do have leader tape inserted
between the tracks. Four musical tracks on each spool, IIRC. I can't play
them. I got a friend with the correct equipment to transfer them to CD-DA for me.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article ,
JNugent wrote:
It's also good practice to store tapes 'tail out'. This helps prevent
print through at the start of something. In theory, at least. However,
you can insert leader tape before the start of the mod - or between
tracks. This ensures as near silence as you can get.

Gawd, this thread is dragging the depths of the memory...

I used analogue tape for well over half my working life, and still love
it. Although not blind to its shortcomings.

I have a couple of half-track stereo masters on 1/4" tape (7" spools),
recorded late-seventies / early-eighties, which do have leader tape
inserted between the tracks. Four musical tracks on each spool, IIRC. I
can't play them. I got a friend with the correct equipment to transfer
them to CD-DA for me.

I can still cope with pretty well any 1/4" tape here at home, with the
exception of 30 ips.

--
*A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

On 19/12/2010 19:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
It's also good practice to store tapes 'tail out'. This helps prevent
print through at the start of something. In theory, at least. However,
you can insert leader tape before the start of the mod - or between
tracks. This ensures as near silence as you can get.

Gawd, this thread is dragging the depths of the memory...

I used analogue tape for well over half my working life, and still love
it. Although not blind to its shortcomings.

I have a couple of half-track stereo masters on 1/4" tape (7" spools),
recorded late-seventies / early-eighties, which do have leader tape
inserted between the tracks. Four musical tracks on each spool, IIRC. I
can't play them. I got a friend with the correct equipment to transfer
them to CD-DA for me.

I can still cope with pretty well any 1/4" tape here at home, with the
exception of 30 ips.

You can just spin them into the computer at 15ips and adjust the sample rate
to convert them...!

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

"JNugent" wrote in message
...
On 19/12/2010 19:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I can still cope with pretty well any 1/4" tape here at home, with the
exception of 30 ips.

You can just spin them into the computer at 15ips and adjust the sample
rate to convert them...!

I've done much the same thing with some 1/4" tapes recorded at 1 7/8 ips,
playing them back at 3 3/4 ips and using CoolEdit to stretch the time scale.
The only problem is that you need to copy and convert before you can decide
whether the material is worth keeping!

David.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The biggest problem with digital is that it's all or nothing and when
DAB radio craps out it makes the most hideous noise followed by silence.

Dunno why DAB is so bad in this respect. FreeView audio just mutes if it
loses the signal. My DAB car radio switches to FM. ;-)


Looks like they could do something about it.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

On 19/12/2010 20:22, David Looser wrote:
"JNugent" wrote in message
...
On 19/12/2010 19:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I can still cope with pretty well any 1/4" tape here at home, with the
exception of 30 ips.
You can just spin them into the computer at 15ips and adjust the sample
rate to convert them...!

I've done much the same thing with some 1/4" tapes recorded at 1 7/8 ips,
playing them back at 3 3/4 ips and using CoolEdit to stretch the time scale.
The only problem is that you need to copy and convert before you can decide
whether the material is worth keeping!

Frequency response?
Did tape use HF pre-emphasis and was it different for different tape speeds?
Dolby would complicate things even more.

--
Eiron.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
On 19/12/2010 20:22, David Looser wrote:
"JNugent" wrote in message
...
On 19/12/2010 19:05, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I can still cope with pretty well any 1/4" tape here at home, with the
exception of 30 ips.
You can just spin them into the computer at 15ips and adjust the sample
rate to convert them...!

I've done much the same thing with some 1/4" tapes recorded at 1 7/8 ips,
playing them back at 3 3/4 ips and using CoolEdit to stretch the time
scale. The only problem is that you need to copy and convert before you
can decide whether the material is worth keeping!

Frequency response?
Did tape use HF pre-emphasis and was it different for different tape
speeds?
Dolby would complicate things even more.


No Dolby, these tapes were recorded on a portable reel-to-reel recorder that
was manufactured long before Mr Dolby got into the noise-reduction business.
As for frequency response, yes there is a theoretical error in copying at
the wrong speed. In practice, though, it wasn't worth worrying about the
theoretical error, given all the other factors that affected the overall
frequency response. So I used Cool Edit to apply whatever modifications to
the FR that made the result sound as natural as possible to my ears.

Dacvid.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article ,
JNugent wrote:
I can still cope with pretty well any 1/4" tape here at home, with the
exception of 30 ips.

You can just spin them into the computer at 15ips and adjust the sample
rate to convert them...!

Ok if you just wanted to listen to it. But the equalisation will be wrong,
and you'll lose the extreme bottom end. So I'd advise anyone with 30 ips
tapes to have them copied properly - since they are likely to be of
important stuff.

--
*Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article
,
wrote:
Some professional musicians are getting fed up with the amateurs on X-
Factor getting the Christmas No.1, so they've put out a recording of
John Cage's 4'33",

[snip]

So it seems this even more cynical attempt failed...

--
*Taxation WITH representation ain't much fun, either.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

On 18/12/2010 22:46, Mike Coatham wrote:
On 19/12/2010 12:27 a.m., Jim Lesurf wrote:
In , Eiron
wrote:
On 18/12/2010 10:46, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
Some professional musicians are getting fed up with the amateurs on
X- Factor getting the Christmas No.1, so they've put out a recording
of John Cage's 4'33", this is a piece composed in 1952 which is for
any number of musicians to remain silent for 4 minutes and 33 seconds.

Of course you never get true silence with people in a room. They
breathe and move - even when seated or standing still.

It will probably be normalized to 0dB when played on the radio. :-)

I suspect you are correct. Indeed, if it is released on CD as well as
download...

Slainte,

Jim

Jim, now wouldn't it be the ideal piece to let loose on the "vinyl is
better than CD" brigade? It would also be interesting to compare how
each genre is mastered/ pressed :)......... Oooh! and what about DBT
just to put the pressure on!

I hope they didn't use Auto-Tune on it. I hate that effect!

--
Eiron.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
Keith G wrote:
The biggest problem with digital is that it's all or nothing and when
DAB radio craps out it makes the most hideous noise followed by silence.

Dunno why DAB is so bad in this respect. FreeView audio just mutes if it
loses the signal. My DAB car radio switches to FM. ;-)

Lucky -U-;)...

run 4 it
--
Tony Sayer

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

On 20/12/2010 00:11, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
JNugent wrote:
I can still cope with pretty well any 1/4" tape here at home, with the
exception of 30 ips.

You can just spin them into the computer at 15ips and adjust the sample
rate to convert them...!

Ok if you just wanted to listen to it. But the equalisation will be wrong,
and you'll lose the extreme bottom end. So I'd advise anyone with 30 ips
tapes to have them copied properly - since they are likely to be of
important stuff.

Just checked - an old copy of Wireless World had a DIY tape recorder design
with pre/de-emphasis time constants inversely proportional to the tape
speed.
So the frequency response will be correct when playing back at a
different speed.
(Dolby would still screw it up though.)

--
Eiron.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
On 20/12/2010 00:11, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
JNugent wrote:
I can still cope with pretty well any 1/4" tape here at home, with the
exception of 30 ips.

You can just spin them into the computer at 15ips and adjust the sample
rate to convert them...!

Ok if you just wanted to listen to it. But the equalisation will be
wrong,
and you'll lose the extreme bottom end. So I'd advise anyone with 30 ips
tapes to have them copied properly - since they are likely to be of
important stuff.

Just checked - an old copy of Wireless World had a DIY tape recorder
design
with pre/de-emphasis time constants inversely proportional to the tape
speed.
So the frequency response will be correct when playing back at a different
speed.
(Dolby would still screw it up though.)


It's not quite that simple. There are a number of factors that affect the
frequency response of an analogue tape recorder, the simplest is the
"rate-of-change-of-flux" issue that causes a 6dB/octave rise in output with
rising frequency, this is counteracted by a simple 6dB/octave roll-off in
the replay amplifier. So as far as that is concerned replaying the tape at
half-speed merely results in a 6dB overall reduction in output level.

However there are also things that affect the HF response:- head inductance,
the effect of tape bias, sinx/x loss as the recorded wavelength approaches
the width of the head-gap etc. To counteract these the 6dB roll-off in the
replay amplifier is levelled out at a frequency dependant on the tape speed,
and HF boost is applied to the record amplifier. The frequency at which the
replay amp response levels out is specified as a time constant, and there
are different standards for this; NAB CCIR IEC etc. To get the correct
frequency response it is important to ensure that a tape is replayed with
the correct standard selected in the replay amp. The HF boost applied to the
record amp (and also sometimes in the replay amp) is simply adjusted to give
the flattest overall response.

So even without Dolby if you want a technically correct replay it's best to
do it at the right speed, and for copying a professionally-recorded master
tape that's really the only acceptable method. However for amateur tapes of
less than perfect technical quality half or double speed copying is quite in
order IMO. For the tapes I mentioned I just applied whatever
frequency-response corrections appeared to my ears to give the most natural
sound to the recording.

David.
..

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

In article ,
Eiron wrote:
Ok if you just wanted to listen to it. But the equalisation will be
wrong, and you'll lose the extreme bottom end. So I'd advise anyone
with 30 ips tapes to have them copied properly - since they are likely
to be of important stuff.

Just checked - an old copy of Wireless World had a DIY tape recorder
design with pre/de-emphasis time constants inversely proportional to the
tape speed. So the frequency response will be correct when playing back
at a different speed. (Dolby would still screw it up though.)

The use of Dolby B (domestic) would be very unusual at 30 ips. As really
would be Dolby A. The main use of 30 ips was to get the best noise figures
without any reduction systems - and even then they had other disadvantages.

But I'd point out that in all my years around pro analogue tape recorders
in broadcasting, I've never used a machine capable of 30 ips.

--
*If God dropped acid, would he see people?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote

The use of Dolby B (domestic) would be very unusual at 30 ips. As really
would be Dolby A. The main use of 30 ips was to get the best noise figures
without any reduction systems - and even then they had other
disadvantages.


Dolby licensing prohibited the use of Dolby B on 15 and 30 ips tapes. The
"high-speed" (3.75, 7.5 and 15 ips) version of the series 75 Ferrograph with
Dolby B was required to disable the Dolby circuitry when 15 ips was
selected. And I agree the main reason for using 30 ips was to avoid using NR
at all.

David.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Looser wrote:

Dolby licensing prohibited the use of Dolby B on 15 and 30 ips tapes.
The "high-speed" (3.75, 7.5 and 15 ips) version of the series 75
Ferrograph with Dolby B was required to disable the Dolby circuitry
when 15 ips was selected. And I agree the main reason for using 30 ips
was to avoid using NR at all.

One learns something knew every day - thanks for that. I've never owned a
Dolby B 1/4" machine -

There weren't many. Revox did a Dolby B version of the A77, but that was a
two speed (3.75, 7.5 ips) machine. There was no high speed (7.5, 15 ips)
version with Dolby B. The Ferrograph was the only 15 ips capable machine
with Dolby B that I'm aware of.

only cassettes.

There's little doubt that it was cassettes that made Dolby B a money-spinner
for Dolby.

But I do have a Dolby A/SR rack for
my machines.

I have a Dolby A unit, not that I use it much!

SR is brilliant.

My only experience of SR is in connection with 35mm film (analogue sound
tracks on 35mm cinema release prints have used SR noise reduction for some
20 years or so)

It's amazing what some firms chuck out. ;-)

As you say, some of the things that used to get slung in the skip at BT labs
when I worked there made me weep.


David.

X-Factor: Muso's in silent protest!
 

On 17/12/2010 18:51, wrote:
I just came across this today while looking for John Cage records on
Amazon:

www.catm.co.uk

Some professional musicians are getting fed up with the amateurs on X-
Factor getting the Christmas No.1, so they've put out a recording of
John Cage's 4'33", this is a piece composed in 1952 which is for any
number of musicians to remain silent for 4 minutes and 33 seconds.

Only seems to be available as a download, it would be more effective
as a CD or even better on vinyl (you would get the crackle etc).

Anyone know what happened? I thought I heard it on the radio
but it turned out that it was not plugged in.

--
Eiron.