In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

One of the aspects of the audio/computer 'biz' that irritates me is
the way almost no-one shows any concern form 'mechanical' noises from
fans, hard drives, etc.

Please do a little reasearch on topics such as "Home Theatre PC" or
HTPC. The two general directions are systems that use so little power
that they are easy to cool, and fanless cooling systems.

Erm... yes, I am aware of them. But so far as I know, most of the general
purpose machines and laptops (see the OP) that people buy aren't in that
category. My experience is that most people simply assume their choice of
home 'PC' or laptop should play music for them. And makers of laptops, etc,
often make a 'feature' of the sound system in their adverts, etc, even when
you can also hear fan and HD noises. Some ads may tell you about all the
wonderful 'surround' and 'enhanced' effects, but somehow don't seem to have
space to say "accompanied by fan whir and HD clatter". ;-

Perhaps you misunderstood my inclusion of "audio" in what I wrote. That was
referring to mechanical noises - most commonly transformer/cap buzz - from
home audio kit. Or maybe you missed the "almost" in what I wrote. :-)

There are reasonably capacious solid state disk drives that run as
little as $2/GB, running up to 240 GB or more. Standard SATA interface.
No moving parts, very little power use, no fans, no noise. Boot
Windoze fast!

They also allow Linux to boot fast enough for me. [1] I have SSDs in all
three of the Linux boxes I use. But, again, from the general ads I've seen,
most home desktop machines and laptops are offerred with traditional
spinning rust. No doubt that will change in due course.

Slainte,

Jim

[1] Haven't tried one in my RO box. But FWIW my new Linux box boots up
in 17 sec. That seems fast enough for me. The Iyonix (RO) takes 25 sec.
That has a traditional HD, and is about a decade old, I guess.

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On 06/04/2012 15:16, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Jim wrote in message
...

One of the aspects of the audio/computer 'biz' that irritates me is the
way
almost no-one shows any concern form 'mechanical' noises from fans, hard
drives, etc.

Please do a little reasearch on topics such as "Home Theatre PC" or HTPC.
The two general directions are systems that use so little power that they
are easy to cool, and fanless cooling systems.


I did, about 4 years back, and the cost would have been too high. And it
seemed so wrong-headed - low noise should be designed in, not bolted on.
I've moved on a little:

An iMac as my desktop machine. This has a fast processor and SSD drive
and, despite 3 fans, is virtually silent.

Mac Mini for media. Small fan, 2.5" HD (Apple seems to source quiet HDs)
but inaudible from where I sit.

I recently bought a Zotac Ion Atom-based fanless motherboard to play
around with. Quite impressive all told, and of course silent with an
SSD. I'm working on a way to use this to replace the Mini, but it'll
never be as neat or effective.

There are reasonably capacious solid state disk drives that run as little as
$2/GB, running up to 240 GB or more. Standard SATA interface. No moving
parts, very little power use, no fans, no noise. Boot Windoze fast!


The are the thing, about £1/GB now in the UK. I'm happy enough with
portable HDs for media storage.

Rob

"Rob" wrote in message
b.com...
On 06/04/2012 15:16, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Jim wrote in message
...

One of the aspects of the audio/computer 'biz' that irritates me is the
way
almost no-one shows any concern form 'mechanical' noises from fans, hard
drives, etc.

Please do a little reasearch on topics such as "Home Theatre PC" or HTPC.
The two general directions are systems that use so little power that they
are easy to cool, and fanless cooling systems.


I did, about 4 years back, and the cost would have been too high. And it
seemed so wrong-headed - low noise should be designed in, not bolted on.
I've moved on a little:

IMO a system that uses a efficient CPU that can operate without a fan *IS* a
good example of a system where low noise has been designed in. If not, then
what?

Examples:

Asus AT5IONT-I Fanless Dual Core 1.8GHz Atom ION2

Asus E35M1-I Deluxe Wi-Fi AMD Fusion Mini-ITX Motherboard

Asus E45M1-I Deluxe Wi-Fi AMD Fusion Mini-ITX Motherboard

Intel D425KT Fanless Atom

Intel D525MW Fanless Dual Core Atom

Intel D2700MUD 2.13GHz Fanless Dual Core Atom with VGA and DVI-D

Jetway JNC98-525 Fanless Dual Core 1.8GHz Atom ION2 Board with 12V DC Input

Jetway JNC9C-550 Fanless Dual Core Atom Mini-ITX Board with Dual LAN, 4x
SATA and Daughterboard Expansion

Zotac NM10-E Wi-Fi Fanless Dual Core 1.8GHz Atom D525 Mini-ITX Board

Zotac E350-A-E Wi-Fi AMD Fusion Mini-ITX Motherboard

etc. etc.

On 06/04/2012 20:43, Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote in message
b.com...
On 06/04/2012 15:16, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Jim wrote in message
...

One of the aspects of the audio/computer 'biz' that irritates me is the
way
almost no-one shows any concern form 'mechanical' noises from fans, hard
drives, etc.

Please do a little reasearch on topics such as "Home Theatre PC" or HTPC.
The two general directions are systems that use so little power that they
are easy to cool, and fanless cooling systems.


I did, about 4 years back, and the cost would have been too high. And it
seemed so wrong-headed - low noise should be designed in, not bolted on.
I've moved on a little:

IMO a system that uses a efficient CPU that can operate without a fan *IS* a
good example of a system where low noise has been designed in. If not, then
what?

Examples:

Asus AT5IONT-I Fanless Dual Core 1.8GHz Atom ION2

Asus E35M1-I Deluxe Wi-Fi AMD Fusion Mini-ITX Motherboard

Asus E45M1-I Deluxe Wi-Fi AMD Fusion Mini-ITX Motherboard

Intel D425KT Fanless Atom

Intel D525MW Fanless Dual Core Atom

Intel D2700MUD 2.13GHz Fanless Dual Core Atom with VGA and DVI-D

Jetway JNC98-525 Fanless Dual Core 1.8GHz Atom ION2 Board with 12V DC Input

Jetway JNC9C-550 Fanless Dual Core Atom Mini-ITX Board with Dual LAN, 4x
SATA and Daughterboard Expansion

Zotac NM10-E Wi-Fi Fanless Dual Core 1.8GHz Atom D525 Mini-ITX Board

Zotac E350-A-E Wi-Fi AMD Fusion Mini-ITX Motherboard

etc. etc.


As I said, I have an Atom-based system - and very good it is too.

A few years back such a system couldn't have handled video, but this
does, and very well. It is rather hamstrung by the processor in certain
circumstances, though, and does get very hot, so I'm going to have to
think of a way to dissipate heat. Curiously, despite being 'fanless' the
system did come with a fan. But proccessor, board, RAM, PSU and small
SSD for well under £100 on ebay . . .

Part of my point was that fans don't have to be a problem. The last few
iMacs I've had have multiple fans and a labyrinth of ducting and heat
pipes to keep everything within limits. Yet they remain cool and
virtually silent, partly because the fans spin so slowly. I have tried
(not hard enough?!) to bolt on apparently similar solutions to PCs but
they simply haven't worked

Rob

In article m, Rob
wrote:
On 06/04/2012 15:16, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Jim wrote in message
...

One of the aspects of the audio/computer 'biz' that irritates me is
the way almost no-one shows any concern form 'mechanical' noises from
fans, hard drives, etc.

Please do a little reasearch on topics such as "Home Theatre PC" or
HTPC. The two general directions are systems that use so little power
that they are easy to cool, and fanless cooling systems.


I did, about 4 years back, and the cost would have been too high. And it
seemed so wrong-headed - low noise should be designed in, not bolted
on.

That is my view. Alas, home PCs and laptops are generally sold on the basis
of being 'powerful' with ultra-fast CPUs, etc. Which means heat to dump.
When choosing a machine for audio I deliberately chose a low-spec CPU as it
would then run in the machine with no fan.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:


IMO a system that uses a efficient CPU that can operate without a fan
*IS* a good example of a system where low noise has been designed in.

Agreed. FWIW None of the ARM-based 'PCs' I use/have used need a CPU fan.

Alas, you can still get noises from spinning rust, PSU fans, or GPU fans.
So need to either choose with care and knowledge (and hope the makers
haven't decided to 'improve' the spec) or to self-build.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On Sat, 07 Apr 2012 13:12:40 +0100, Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article m, Rob
wrote:
On 06/04/2012 15:16, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Jim wrote in message
...

One of the aspects of the audio/computer 'biz' that irritates me is
the way almost no-one shows any concern form 'mechanical' noises from
fans, hard drives, etc.

Please do a little reasearch on topics such as "Home Theatre PC" or
HTPC. The two general directions are systems that use so little power
that they are easy to cool, and fanless cooling systems.


I did, about 4 years back, and the cost would have been too high. And it
seemed so wrong-headed - low noise should be designed in, not bolted
on.

That is my view. Alas, home PCs and laptops are generally sold on the basis
of being 'powerful' with ultra-fast CPUs, etc. Which means heat to dump.
When choosing a machine for audio I deliberately chose a low-spec CPU as it
would then run in the machine with no fan.

Slainte,

Jim

Better yet, choose a high spec PCU and run it at reduced clock rate.
That will take even less power as dissipation is all in the rising and
falling edges. Underclocking could become the new overclocking.

d

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Don Pearce wrote:
On Sat, 07 Apr 2012 13:12:40 +0100, Jim Lesurf
wrote:
[snip]
That is my view. Alas, home PCs and laptops are generally sold on
the basis of being 'powerful' with ultra-fast CPUs, etc. Which means
heat to dump. When choosing a machine for audio I deliberately chose
a low-spec CPU as it would then run in the machine with no fan.

Better yet, choose a high spec PCU and run it at reduced clock rate.
That will take even less power as dissipation is all in the rising and
falling edges. Underclocking could become the new overclocking.

That is exactly what I did with my afore-mentioned Acer laptop that I use
for a juke-box. It's fitted with a 1.8GHz Pentium M [Dothan] processor,
quite a powerful and cool CPU to start with. I run Windows XP on it and a
freeware programme called Notebook Hardware Control.

Using that software, after some stress-testing, I am able to run the CPU at
1.6GHz max with vcore less than 1.0V ('Speedstep' otherwise varies the CPU
speed and vcore between 600MHz / 0.7V and the full 1.8GHz/1.34V). By
reducing the maximum speed and undervolting it, then running a big (20cm+)
slow (~400rpm) fan USB-powered 'notebook cooler' the internal CPU cooler
almost never comes on. The gentle breeze of the almost silent big fan past
the cooling outlet is enough to cool the CPU.

I used to overclock back in the late 90s / early 00s but now I undervolt and
underclock. Modern CPUs have long since been powerful enough for my modest
needs.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Arny
Krueger
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...

One of the aspects of the audio/computer 'biz' that irritates me is
the way almost no-one shows any concern form 'mechanical' noises from
fans, hard drives, etc.

In fact a large and growing marketplace of hardware that addresses these
issues has been uncovered. More below.

Please do a little reasearch on topics such as "Home Theatre PC" or
HTPC. The two general directions are systems that use so little power
that they are easy to cool, and fanless cooling systems.

Erm... yes, I am aware of them. But so far as I know, most of the general
purpose machines and laptops (see the OP) that people buy aren't in that
category.

Are you aware of the architecture of that new and highly popular class of
machine called the "Tablet"? ;-)

Most can be interfaced to home equipment for AV, both audio and video. Some
of the interfaces are pure digital for highest quality.

So much for machines with low inherent noise being niche machines!

My experience is that most people simply assume their choice of
home 'PC' or laptop should play music for them. And makers of laptops,
etc,
often make a 'feature' of the sound system in their adverts, etc, even
when
you can also hear fan and HD noises. Some ads may tell you about all the
wonderful 'surround' and 'enhanced' effects, but somehow don't seem to
have
space to say "accompanied by fan whir and HD clatter". ;-

Please see the OP from Mr. Lesurf that contains the phrase almost "no-One".

The relevant fact is are that we have a highly popular class of highly
capable machine, that it seems like almost everybody I know has, that lacks
fans and spinning hard drives.

Tablet make very nice music players and they are easy to interface with home
systems a number of different ways.

If their system resources come up short, then you can move on to Netbooks.

If that comes up short, then a person such as would post to this forum can
easily acquire the parts to economically build a real AV monster!

Seems like a reasonable selection of popular, workable solutions...

On 09/04/2012 13:54, Arny Krueger wrote:
"Jim wrote in message


Are you aware of the architecture of that new and highly popular class of
machine called the "Tablet"? ;-)

Most can be interfaced to home equipment for AV, both audio and video. Some
of the interfaces are pure digital for highest quality.

So much for machines with low inherent noise being niche machines!


Good point, but not enough storage, slowish processors and I'm not sure
how Android would cope with serving 1TB of data. The storage would be a
problem for me, and it would either need to be networked/remote (which I
don't have permanently) or tethered to HDs (which would be messy).
Interesting though.

My experience is that most people simply assume their choice of
home 'PC' or laptop should play music for them. And makers of laptops,
etc,
often make a 'feature' of the sound system in their adverts, etc, even
when
you can also hear fan and HD noises. Some ads may tell you about all the
wonderful 'surround' and 'enhanced' effects, but somehow don't seem to
have
space to say "accompanied by fan whir and HD clatter". ;-

Please see the OP from Mr. Lesurf that contains the phrase almost "no-One".

The relevant fact is are that we have a highly popular class of highly
capable machine, that it seems like almost everybody I know has, that lacks
fans and spinning hard drives.


I have an iPad, cough splutter. Good at what it does, but I wouldn't
want it as the main device unless it stored media. Although I agree that
could change if I had networked storage. As it is I can use it to
connect to and control the Mac Mini, which contains all my media files.

Best confined to reading the paper, books, Planets, film reviews and
email checking, for now.

Tablet make very nice music players and they are easy to interface with home
systems a number of different ways.

If their system resources come up short, then you can move on to Netbooks.

If that comes up short, then a person such as would post to this forum can
easily acquire the parts to economically build a real AV monster!

Seems like a reasonable selection of popular, workable solutions...


Apart from the noise . . .

Rob