Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

On 20/01/2016 11:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bob Latham wrote:
I'm sorry personally I don't agree. I think that in the home the CD
player is now obsolete. A small NAS holds my entire CD collection which
has been boxed up in the loft for years now, should get rid really.
Controlled by any modern mobile phone or tablet and no TV needed at all.
Far, far better in every way.

I've wondered about doing something like this.

However, the snags as I see them:-

It's not going to be as fast to get up and running as a CD player - from
switch on. Or you leave it running permanently?


Indeed. Mine takes about 30s to 'boot'. Once it's all up and running
material can be found in seconds using a smartphone or tablet.

Have you ripped the CDs raw - or used MP3 etc? Big difference in the
storage needed.


500GB, increasing by maybe 25GB a year. But I do of course accept this
will be an issue if you're short of money, and does need to be doubled
to allow for backups. £100 more than covers it for me - about 2,500
albums, 1600 artists, and 30,000 tracks (just checked).

Many computer based systems have less than perfect analogue outputs.


I wouldn't use a normal computer. I can't comment with any measure of
authority on the quality of the DACs in computers - beyond what I read
here and other sources. For me, it's also the hassle of the things
whirring away and in the most part needing a monitor and input devices.
I don't want any of that in the room I use to listen to music.

I use a Cambridge music server (NP30) and an outboard DAC. Seems to work
fine.


--
Cheers, Rob

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

On 21/01/2016 22:03, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 06:17:48 +0000, Bob Latham wrote:

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:

Ouch! or Yikes! How often do you upgrade or swap out failing disk
drives, I wonder?

I have 3 NAS boxes, one of them off site. The oldest is from 2010 and
none of them has ever given any indication of a problem with their hard
drive. Rightly or wrongly I use Western Digital REDS.

Rightly, imo, provided you've addressed the 8 second head unload timeout
issue (which the lack of failure of the oldest drive could imply except I
don't know whether this is simply because you're only spinning them for
just a few hours per day).

As long as you steer clear of the Seagate rubbish, you shouldn't suffer
too many problems especially if you check the SMART stats every other
week or so and don't *just* rely on smartmonctrl sending you an email
about imminent failure. :-)


I've read your posts on the unreliability of HDs, and (lack of) wisdom
in allowing systems to 'sleep'.

I'm afraid I simply don't follow a lot of what you say, and have relied
on buying what seem to be be decent brands - WD Reds for my last upgrade
a couple of years' back. I let the system sleep - basically because it's
not that accessible (in a cellar), is not used anything like 24/7 -
maybe 4 hours/day on average, and the electricity savings seem worthwhile.

I use the old disks (2TB WD-somethings I think, in the old NAS box) for
backup. I've not had a single failure - but then maybe I've been lucky.

--
Cheers, Rob

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

No I'm darn sorf, in surrey.
I think in the past it was sometimes an adjustment on the pcb, but there
seem to be none on this unit. I suppose another machine might in the end be
the answer. the innards of these devices seem to be very empty these days,
Hardly high density pcbs though there is a fairly large mains transformer
which has started to buzz a little when on.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
Remember, if you don't like where I post
or what I say, you don't have to
read my posts! :-)
"RJH" wrote in message
...
More than happy to help with the part numbers, and indeed a lens cleaner -
if you're local! Sheffield . . .

On 19/01/2016 09:18, Brian Gaff wrote:
OK I have a not that old but out of warranty Marantz cd player which is
supposed to and did play cdrw disc.

However over a time its stopped doing this and now has issues on some,
mainly home made but some commercial, discs as well. This manifests
itself as hunting either at the start or when you manually move a track
u the listing. It hunts for a couple of seconds then gives up with an
error in the display window. Unfortunately you need to eject the disc to
get it to look again.
I was just wondering whether this is just some drift in servos or a
problem with the laser.
This model was in fact from what I have seen, also sold as Philips as
the controls are in the same basic places and just the styling and case
is different, ie the Philips looks flimsy.

The other one is a brand new panasonic el cheapo dvd player. for around
40 quid. As such it works fine, and can even apparently do clever stuff
with ram sticks.
The one snag is that when playing cds, it always ducks the sound where a
track marker is, so say, a live cd with no breaks but track makers to
help you find parts of the recording tends to sound like a lot of small
bits of live performance.
It also has an annoying habit of chopping of the last few seconds of mp3
tracks both on cd and on ram sticks.
Looks to me like it needs some kind of firmware fix, but would not know
if this is true or its just a botched up cd player glued onto a dvd
player. This would not really matter if it were not for the fact that
the actual sound of it playing cds is amazingly good compared to many
higher priced players.
As I say, no head for part numbers but can get them when a pair of eyes
comes along later on.
Brian



--
Cheers, Rob

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

On 24/01/2016 10:19, Bob Latham wrote:
In article ,
RJH wrote:
On 20/01/2016 11:14, Bob Latham wrote:

While I'm very happy with Synology's hardware/software, that's one thing
I've not been able to fathom. I have to use other software (such as that
supplied with the Cambridge NP30 music server) to play gapless material.

I have four players in my house and none of them produces any "audible
gap" that isn't on the CD. I believe this is described as gapless
playback.


Which software/music server are you using?

MinimServer on a synology DS214+. The reason I don't use the on board
Synology software is that it adds its data inside yours. I found with all
the Apps that when they indexed the music or videos or photos, they placed
hidden directories inside your data.


Ah OK - I use the Synology Audio programme to do all of that, I think.
The lyrics overlay plugin is my latest toy - marvellous!

Minimserver doesn't add data to mine, it keeps its data to itself.


I can't see any extra files - the audio folders and files all look
untouched. But of course, it must store the databases somewhere.

Gapless playback is fine.


I access the tracks using the DS Audio iOS app, and an iPhone or iPad.
The only one that I can see that might be compatible with Minimserver is
XMBC - and I'm not a big fan. It'll also do my Roberts network radio -
but again, the Synology iOS app will tap into that and play back anything.

Which software/hardware do you use to access the tracks and play them?
As I say, the DS Audio application/NP30 is fine for me - except on the
matter of gapless playback.

The Cambridge software is just odd - falls short in virtually every respect.


--
Cheers, Rob

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

On 24/01/2016 10:39, Brian-Gaff wrote:
No I'm darn sorf, in surrey.

Ah, never mind.

I think in the past it was sometimes an adjustment on the pcb, but there
seem to be none on this unit. I suppose another machine might in the end be
the answer. the innards of these devices seem to be very empty these days,
Hardly high density pcbs though there is a fairly large mains transformer
which has started to buzz a little when on.

I've got a quite expensive Harmon Kardon HD970 CD player with a facility
to use it as a DAC. But it has trouble with some discs nowadays. I
gather from a brief internet search that the simplest solution is to
swap out the mechanism.

I've never been that convinced by optical media - far from the 'perfect
forever' we were asked to believe.

--
Cheers, Rob

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

On 24/01/2016 10:39, Brian-Gaff wrote:
No I'm darn sorf, in surrey.
I think in the past it was sometimes an adjustment on the pcb, but there
seem to be none on this unit. I suppose another machine might in the end be
the answer. the innards of these devices seem to be very empty these days,
Hardly high density pcbs though there is a fairly large mains transformer
which has started to buzz a little when on.

You can adjust it if you have a manual, an oscilloscope and the correct
test disc.
But the test disc will be unobtainable.

I got a nice Denon CD player for 20 quid from the British Heart Foundation
shop in Mitcham. Almost Surrey, very musical, plays home-made CDs, can't
complain.

The Marantz in the garage, on the other hand, stopped working last week.
I suspect it was sulking after my earlier comments. Warming it up didn't
help
but taking the cover off and blowing out a load of dust did.
That's very musical too, just like every other CD player since about 1990.

My first DVD player, an expensive Marantz, always missed the first half
second
or so of a CD track. I don't know what happened to it but it's long gone.

--
Eiron.

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article ,
RJH wrote:

I've never been that convinced by optical media - far from the 'perfect
forever' we were asked to believe.

Is anything? Magnetic has a poor life too. Solid state too new to know for
sure.

Of all the media we have data on, ordinary film seems to survive well if
stored in reasonable conditions.

--
*Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

RJH wrote:


I've got a quite expensive Harmon Kardon HD970 CD player with a facility
to use it as a DAC. But it has trouble with some discs nowadays. I
gather from a brief internet search that the simplest solution is to
swap out the mechanism.

I've never been that convinced by optical media - far from the 'perfect
forever' we were asked to believe.


** The phrase "perfect sound forever" was used in relation to the release of the CD disk in 1982. Nobody suggested that CD players would have an indefinite life.

Nevertheless, I still have Sony CDP101 that was purchased in May 1983. It is the only CD player I ever bought and it still functions and tests perfectly.

I also have any number of CDs that are of similar age and they all play perfectly, same as the day they were made. Same is true for every CD I own.

Any shortcomings in sound quality from a CD is not the fault of the disk or the 16bit/ 44.1kHz PCM format - but rather the recording industry that still only gets it right on occasion.



..... Phil

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

On Sun, 24 Jan 2016 09:48:15 +0000, RJH wrote:

On 21/01/2016 22:03, Johnny B Good wrote:
On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 06:17:48 +0000, Bob Latham wrote:

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:

Ouch! or Yikes! How often do you upgrade or swap out failing disk
drives, I wonder?

I have 3 NAS boxes, one of them off site. The oldest is from 2010 and
none of them has ever given any indication of a problem with their hard
drive. Rightly or wrongly I use Western Digital REDS.

As long as you steer clear of the Seagate rubbish, you shouldn't suffer
too many problems especially if you check the SMART stats every other
week or so and don't *just* rely on smartmonctrl sending you an email
about imminent failure. :-)

Yes, Seagate has had a terrible reputation in the last few years, due,
they claim, to a bad batch each of two particular models. Certainly,
I can confirm that I've had three 3TB Seagates go down in my NASs in
each of the last three years, and another replacement for the first of
these that was DOA.

By contrast, most other brands of HD seem to keep marching on.
Recently, I've had a WD HD in a PC go down, but it was 12 years old
and had been swapped between PCs often, and it died the last time it
was swapped, so, though obviously a nuisance, I deemed that an
entirely acceptable failure, even though I have another WD drive that
was purchased at the same time and with much the same history that,
touch wood, is still going.

My last purchase was a 3TB Toshiba, to replace the last Seagate that
died. Too early to speculate on its longevity or lack of it.

I'm afraid I simply don't follow a lot of what you say, and have relied
on buying what seem to be be decent brands - WD Reds for my last upgrade
a couple of years' back. I let the system sleep - basically because it's
not that accessible (in a cellar), is not used anything like 24/7 -
maybe 4 hours/day on average, and the electricity savings seem worthwhile.

Perfectly acceptable IMHO.

I use the old disks (2TB WD-somethings I think, in the old NAS box) for
backup. I've not had a single failure - but then maybe I've been lucky.

Yes, I've cleaned up the bad sectors on the last Seagate that just
died and am using it for offline backup of the online backup!
--
================================================== ======
Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article ,
Huge wrote:
On 2016-01-24, Phil Allison wrote:

[17 lines snipped]

Any shortcomings in sound quality from a CD is not the fault of the disk or the 16bit/ 44.1kHz PCM format - but rather the recording industry that still only gets it right on occasion.

*applause*


Yup. Standard test for this. Transfer *anything* you want properly to CD
format. Now try and tell the original from the copy in a properly
conducted test so you don't know which is which.

Only reason to go for a 'better' format is where processing is involved.
Absolutely no need for an end user medium.

--
*I brake for no apparent reason.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

On 24/01/2016 13:38, Phil Allison wrote:
RJH wrote:


I've got a quite expensive Harmon Kardon HD970 CD player with a facility
to use it as a DAC. But it has trouble with some discs nowadays. I
gather from a brief internet search that the simplest solution is to
swap out the mechanism.

I've never been that convinced by optical media - far from the 'perfect
forever' we were asked to believe.


** The phrase "perfect sound forever" was used in relation to the release of the CD disk in 1982. Nobody suggested that CD players would have an indefinite life.

Nevertheless, I still have Sony CDP101 that was purchased in May 1983. It is the only CD player I ever bought and it still functions and tests perfectly.

I also have any number of CDs that are of similar age and they all play perfectly, same as the day they were made. Same is true for every CD I own.

I'd agree on the retail music and data CDs. But not on writeable, and
certainly not rewritable. Quite a few of mine from 10+ years back can't
be read, and they've been stored in reasonably good conditions.

On hardware, maybe I've been unlucky and bought badly, but I seem to
have experienced a high number of computer and audio CDP optical drive
failures.

I was glad an optical drive wasn't fitted to a recent iMac I've bought.
I got an external drive for the few times I might need it. That's
generally OK, but seems very picky about cables for some reason.

Any shortcomings in sound quality from a CD is not the fault of the disk or the 16bit/ 44.1kHz PCM format - but rather the recording industry that still only gets it right on occasion.


Yep.

--
Cheers, Rob

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article ,
Java Jive wrote:
As long as you steer clear of the Seagate rubbish, you shouldn't suffer
too many problems especially if you check the SMART stats every other
week or so and don't *just* rely on smartmonctrl sending you an email
about imminent failure. :-)

Yes, Seagate has had a terrible reputation in the last few years, due,
they claim, to a bad batch each of two particular models. Certainly,
I can confirm that I've had three 3TB Seagates go down in my NASs in
each of the last three years, and another replacement for the first of
these that was DOA.

By contrast, most other brands of HD seem to keep marching on.
Recently, I've had a WD HD in a PC go down, but it was 12 years old
and had been swapped between PCs often, and it died the last time it
was swapped, so, though obviously a nuisance, I deemed that an
entirely acceptable failure, even though I have another WD drive that
was purchased at the same time and with much the same history that,
touch wood, is still going.

Most recent failure I've had was an Hitachi DeskStar. Used in the old
Acorn, so doesn't get the same thrashing as a PC. It's off at a specialist
to be recovered - fingers crossed. The other smaller HD in the Acorn is
over 20 years old which is why I'd got a bit lax with backups. But I've
learned an expensive lesson now. ;-)

--
*I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article ,
RJH wrote:
I also have any number of CDs that are of similar age and they all play perfectly, same as the day they were made. Same is true for every CD I own.

I'd agree on the retail music and data CDs. But not on writeable, and
certainly not rewritable. Quite a few of mine from 10+ years back can't
be read, and they've been stored in reasonably good conditions.

Pro produced CDs and home ones are made in an entirely different way.

On hardware, maybe I've been unlucky and bought badly, but I seem to
have experienced a high number of computer and audio CDP optical drive
failures.

But most PC drives are cheap as chips. Domestic ones were generally much
more expensive. And don't spin as fast.

I was glad an optical drive wasn't fitted to a recent iMac I've bought.
I got an external drive for the few times I might need it. That's
generally OK, but seems very picky about cables for some reason.

Does it being a Mac mean you can't just fit a cheap as chips replacement?

--
*If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

On 24/01/2016 15:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
RJH wrote:
I also have any number of CDs that are of similar age and they all play perfectly, same as the day they were made. Same is true for every CD I own.

I'd agree on the retail music and data CDs. But not on writeable, and
certainly not rewritable. Quite a few of mine from 10+ years back can't
be read, and they've been stored in reasonably good conditions.

Pro produced CDs and home ones are made in an entirely different way.


I've no doubt. And made using better quality and more resilient 'blanks'.

On hardware, maybe I've been unlucky and bought badly, but I seem to
have experienced a high number of computer and audio CDP optical drive
failures.

But most PC drives are cheap as chips. Domestic ones were generally much
more expensive. And don't spin as fast.


Yep. Just saying - I haven't had a good experience of certain aspects of
optical media and players. Could well be that everybody else's
experience differs.

I was glad an optical drive wasn't fitted to a recent iMac I've bought.
I got an external drive for the few times I might need it. That's
generally OK, but seems very picky about cables for some reason.

Does it being a Mac mean you can't just fit a cheap as chips replacement?


Being a Mac - IIUC, yes. I think the firmware differs. I looked into it
when my 6 year old iMac's DVD drive started playing up. It wasn't silly
money to replace (and I didn't need to in the end, it seemed to right
itself), but they can be a royal pain in this respect.

--
Cheers, Rob

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

RJH wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:


I've got a quite expensive Harmon Kardon HD970 CD player with a facility
to use it as a DAC. But it has trouble with some discs nowadays. I
gather from a brief internet search that the simplest solution is to
swap out the mechanism.

I've never been that convinced by optical media - far from the 'perfect
forever' we were asked to believe.


** The phrase "perfect sound forever" was used in relation to the release of the CD disk in 1982. Nobody suggested that CD players would have an indefinite life.

Nevertheless, I still have Sony CDP101 that was purchased in May 1983. It is the only CD player I ever bought and it still functions and tests perfectly.

I also have any number of CDs that are of similar age and they all play perfectly, same as the day they were made. Same is true for every CD I own.


I'd agree on the retail music and data CDs. But not on writeable, and
certainly not rewritable. Quite a few of mine from 10+ years back can't
be read, and they've been stored in reasonably good conditions.


** The famous phrase you cited NEVER applied to either of those, as they are came along much later and were not intended for the release of commercial recordings. In fact, many doubts about longevity were expressed when they first appeared.

Wanna have a good whinge abut the weather ???



..... Phil

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

On 25/01/2016 03:29, Phil Allison wrote:
RJH wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:


I've got a quite expensive Harmon Kardon HD970 CD player with a facility
to use it as a DAC. But it has trouble with some discs nowadays. I
gather from a brief internet search that the simplest solution is to
swap out the mechanism.

I've never been that convinced by optical media - far from the 'perfect
forever' we were asked to believe.


** The phrase "perfect sound forever" was used in relation to the release of the CD disk in 1982. Nobody suggested that CD players would have an indefinite life.

Nevertheless, I still have Sony CDP101 that was purchased in May 1983. It is the only CD player I ever bought and it still functions and tests perfectly.

I also have any number of CDs that are of similar age and they all play perfectly, same as the day they were made. Same is true for every CD I own.


I'd agree on the retail music and data CDs. But not on writeable, and
certainly not rewritable. Quite a few of mine from 10+ years back can't
be read, and they've been stored in reasonably good conditions.


** The famous phrase you cited NEVER applied to either of those, as they are came along much later and were not intended for the release of commercial recordings.

My recollection is that the phrase was just a marketing device, and was
soon shown to be - at best - open to challenge. I'd agree of course that
it was never directly applied to all optical media and hardware - only,
and my point here, that I expected it to be more reliable than has
turned out to be the case.

If you feel my expectation based on a related marketing representation
was unreasonable or unfounded, fine. I'd probably agree ;-)


In fact, many doubts about longevity were expressed when they first appeared.


My first memory of CDs was on a science TV show - Tomorrow's World.
IIRC, CDs in general were introduced as durable - certainly far more so
than LPs.

Wanna have a good whinge abut the weather ???


Nope, optical media/hardware will do me for now :-)

--
Cheers, Rob

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

RJH wrote:



I'd agree on the retail music and data CDs. But not on writeable, and
certainly not rewritable. Quite a few of mine from 10+ years back can't
be read, and they've been stored in reasonably good conditions.


** The famous phrase you cited NEVER applied to either of those, as they are came along much later and were not intended for the release of commercial recordings.

My recollection is that the phrase was just a marketing device,


** It was really neither.

The phrase alludes to two facts: that 44.1kHz, 16bit PCM is a no compromise stereo audio recording technique and that factory made CDs offer the potential of having an indefinite life, no matter how often played.

Reasonable persons might well sum that combination up in a few words, like those in the phrase.


..... Phil

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article ,
RJH wrote:
My recollection is that the phrase was just a marketing device, and was
soon shown to be - at best - open to challenge. I'd agree of course that
it was never directly applied to all optical media and hardware - only,
and my point here, that I expected it to be more reliable than has
turned out to be the case.

I think you may have been unlucky, or had substandard blanks.

The oldest home made CDs I have date from getting on for 20 years ago, and
still play ok. Although not every CD player works with them.

--
*Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

I've had no issues with the media from commercial sources, ie the original
Philips demo disc for my cd100 still plays perfectly, and it has to date
from 1983. Even some of the earliest home made cds are fine and yet this
particular player has issues with some of the home made ones, either not
finding next track closer to the outside edge or as I say, not finding the
disc or the first track depending on the severity. All on tdk disc CD rw
are just a waste of time as one hears crackles skips and repeated bits and
in some cases old content supposedly erased as well.

However there are some writers which produce better discs for this player
than others, though on my cheapo tesco portable player they all play fine.
I imagine its tolerances and in the way of some tape recorders playing
things that they should not, optical players can sometimes see the bits of a
disc they should not see creating noise on the signal that it just cannot
cope with.


Strange it is though that often the cheapest players have the best tracking.
Brian

"RJH" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2016 10:39, Brian-Gaff wrote:
No I'm darn sorf, in surrey.

Ah, never mind.

I think in the past it was sometimes an adjustment on the pcb, but
there
seem to be none on this unit. I suppose another machine might in the end
be
the answer. the innards of these devices seem to be very empty these
days,
Hardly high density pcbs though there is a fairly large mains transformer
which has started to buzz a little when on.

I've got a quite expensive Harmon Kardon HD970 CD player with a facility
to use it as a DAC. But it has trouble with some discs nowadays. I gather
from a brief internet search that the simplest solution is to swap out the
mechanism.

I've never been that convinced by optical media - far from the 'perfect
forever' we were asked to believe.

--
Cheers, Rob

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

We are now using flash drives for our talking newspaper, and they do seem to
fail after a while.
Some tend to lose space until they are smaller than the original, others
present as ticking noises in the stream.
I'd imagine though, if we were going to use them as write once media, like
cds, they should be rom based that should last longer as long as they are
not eprom ones as I used to have bad experiences with that technology, due
to them not liking being in sunlight very much. Indeed some made in the 80s
have almost completely turned to gibberish, cosmic rays I'm told, really?
Brian

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
RJH wrote:

I've never been that convinced by optical media - far from the 'perfect
forever' we were asked to believe.

Is anything? Magnetic has a poor life too. Solid state too new to know for
sure.

Of all the media we have data on, ordinary film seems to survive well if
stored in reasonable conditions.

--
*Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

Yes, as I recall the Sony machines used time sliced d to a and thus as
treble rises the phase shift becomes quite significant between channels. The
Philips cd100 which works well if a little slow, uses oversampled dual 14bit
separate dacs per channel and this does not happen in that. Its big problem
is the designers seemed to build it as a seismograph instead of a cd
player. Everyone has to be careful or it will skip!
Brian

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...
RJH wrote:


I've got a quite expensive Harmon Kardon HD970 CD player with a facility
to use it as a DAC. But it has trouble with some discs nowadays. I
gather from a brief internet search that the simplest solution is to
swap out the mechanism.

I've never been that convinced by optical media - far from the 'perfect
forever' we were asked to believe.


** The phrase "perfect sound forever" was used in relation to the release
of the CD disk in 1982. Nobody suggested that CD players would have an
indefinite life.

Nevertheless, I still have Sony CDP101 that was purchased in May 1983. It
is the only CD player I ever bought and it still functions and tests
perfectly.

I also have any number of CDs that are of similar age and they all play
perfectly, same as the day they were made. Same is true for every CD I
own.

Any shortcomings in sound quality from a CD is not the fault of the disk
or the 16bit/ 44.1kHz PCM format - but rather the recording industry that
still only gets it right on occasion.



.... Phil

--
----- -
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Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

I know one person who still uses a first generation Akai CD player which
held the disc vertically, and it too is still fine on commercial cds, but
its no good for cdr or cd rw, but then there were none when it was made.

I can normally play cdrs on the CD100 machine but you dare not try to select
tracks as it has a bug where it will search for the start forever sometimes,
and it needs a little tap on the side to fix this. I think the mass of the
lens assembly is too high personally.
Brian

"RJH" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2016 13:38, Phil Allison wrote:
RJH wrote:


I've got a quite expensive Harmon Kardon HD970 CD player with a facility
to use it as a DAC. But it has trouble with some discs nowadays. I
gather from a brief internet search that the simplest solution is to
swap out the mechanism.

I've never been that convinced by optical media - far from the 'perfect
forever' we were asked to believe.


** The phrase "perfect sound forever" was used in relation to the release
of the CD disk in 1982. Nobody suggested that CD players would have an
indefinite life.

Nevertheless, I still have Sony CDP101 that was purchased in May 1983. It
is the only CD player I ever bought and it still functions and tests
perfectly.

I also have any number of CDs that are of similar age and they all play
perfectly, same as the day they were made. Same is true for every CD I
own.

I'd agree on the retail music and data CDs. But not on writeable, and
certainly not rewritable. Quite a few of mine from 10+ years back can't be
read, and they've been stored in reasonably good conditions.

On hardware, maybe I've been unlucky and bought badly, but I seem to have
experienced a high number of computer and audio CDP optical drive
failures.

I was glad an optical drive wasn't fitted to a recent iMac I've bought. I
got an external drive for the few times I might need it. That's generally
OK, but seems very picky about cables for some reason.

Any shortcomings in sound quality from a CD is not the fault of the disk
or the 16bit/ 44.1kHz PCM format - but rather the recording industry that
still only gets it right on occasion.


Yep.

--
Cheers, Rob

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Indeed, but again in the case of cdr, what is the point in using such media
if its not going to last very long?
I don't think the decay factor is that great on modern cdr blanks. The
recorders of the past did tend to not produce very good edges to the
reflective burn off and it is this which creates many errors and seems to
actually change over time. I'm sure an expert might know why, but I'm not
sure what the substance is that reflects some frequencies and absorbs
others.
Brian

"Phil Allison" wrote in message
...
RJH wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:


I've got a quite expensive Harmon Kardon HD970 CD player with a
facility
to use it as a DAC. But it has trouble with some discs nowadays. I
gather from a brief internet search that the simplest solution is to
swap out the mechanism.

I've never been that convinced by optical media - far from the
'perfect
forever' we were asked to believe.


** The phrase "perfect sound forever" was used in relation to the
release of the CD disk in 1982. Nobody suggested that CD players would
have an indefinite life.

Nevertheless, I still have Sony CDP101 that was purchased in May 1983.
It is the only CD player I ever bought and it still functions and tests
perfectly.

I also have any number of CDs that are of similar age and they all play
perfectly, same as the day they were made. Same is true for every CD I
own.


I'd agree on the retail music and data CDs. But not on writeable, and
certainly not rewritable. Quite a few of mine from 10+ years back can't
be read, and they've been stored in reasonably good conditions.


** The famous phrase you cited NEVER applied to either of those, as they
are came along much later and were not intended for the release of
commercial recordings. In fact, many doubts about longevity were expressed
when they first appeared.

Wanna have a good whinge abut the weather ???



.... Phil





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Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

I always had an issue with the jam test, as it was clearly completely hat
stand and resulted in some kids actually trying it and gumming up expensive
gear.

I also remember the discs with holes drilled in them which you could not
hear, Strangely I never did find any player which could manage this feat.

The discs that failed can be recognised of course as they tend to have a
kind of brown look in places where air got in and oxidised the coating under
the laquer.
I think the other issue was that the printing could be corrosive and so the
playing side eventually degraded. This hit a number of the early laserdiscs
as well. A friend has a Pioneer one of these and it seems very good on cds
as well, though the clanking and grinding it makes makes me wonder how its
lasted so long!

Brian

"RJH" wrote in message
...
On 25/01/2016 03:29, Phil Allison wrote:
RJH wrote:
Phil Allison wrote:


I've got a quite expensive Harmon Kardon HD970 CD player with a
facility
to use it as a DAC. But it has trouble with some discs nowadays. I
gather from a brief internet search that the simplest solution is to
swap out the mechanism.

I've never been that convinced by optical media - far from the
'perfect
forever' we were asked to believe.


** The phrase "perfect sound forever" was used in relation to the
release of the CD disk in 1982. Nobody suggested that CD players would
have an indefinite life.

Nevertheless, I still have Sony CDP101 that was purchased in May 1983.
It is the only CD player I ever bought and it still functions and tests
perfectly.

I also have any number of CDs that are of similar age and they all play
perfectly, same as the day they were made. Same is true for every CD I
own.


I'd agree on the retail music and data CDs. But not on writeable, and
certainly not rewritable. Quite a few of mine from 10+ years back can't
be read, and they've been stored in reasonably good conditions.


** The famous phrase you cited NEVER applied to either of those, as they
are came along much later and were not intended for the release of
commercial recordings.

My recollection is that the phrase was just a marketing device, and was
soon shown to be - at best - open to challenge. I'd agree of course that
it was never directly applied to all optical media and hardware - only,
and my point here, that I expected it to be more reliable than has turned
out to be the case.

If you feel my expectation based on a related marketing representation was
unreasonable or unfounded, fine. I'd probably agree ;-)


In fact, many doubts about longevity were expressed when they first
appeared.


My first memory of CDs was on a science TV show - Tomorrow's World. IIRC,
CDs in general were introduced as durable - certainly far more so than
LPs.

Wanna have a good whinge abut the weather ???


Nope, optical media/hardware will do me for now :-)

--
Cheers, Rob

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Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

Well I've had the to off, moved the laser to the outside of a disc, and
then turned the power off, manually removed the disc and cleaned the lens
with a ipa soaked cotton bud and dried it. It is better but still not right.
The lens to me seems to have some back and forward play as if a toothed gear
is not meshed very well. Surely its not worn out already, its done far less
hours than some of the dvd players bought for little money, and the cd100
which has had massive use over the years.

Some people think lasers age over time so this could be another thing to
consider. I've always thought in the rush to get new models out there, very
little is known about the aging of components used in them any more.
People just trust what the makers say and use them. Capacitors are a case in
point, as are PIR sensors, all of which seem to have a very short life.

In a sub woofer I have the bridge rectifier has had to be replaced with a
bigger one as it kept on trashing the ones fitted as they simply war not
rated for the surge current at switch on charging up all the capacitors.
Bad design, making things as cheap as possible and people making
decisions who are not technical enough.
Brian

"Eiron" wrote in message
...
On 24/01/2016 10:39, Brian-Gaff wrote:
No I'm darn sorf, in surrey.
I think in the past it was sometimes an adjustment on the pcb, but
there
seem to be none on this unit. I suppose another machine might in the end
be
the answer. the innards of these devices seem to be very empty these
days,
Hardly high density pcbs though there is a fairly large mains transformer
which has started to buzz a little when on.

You can adjust it if you have a manual, an oscilloscope and the correct
test disc.
But the test disc will be unobtainable.

I got a nice Denon CD player for 20 quid from the British Heart Foundation
shop in Mitcham. Almost Surrey, very musical, plays home-made CDs, can't
complain.

The Marantz in the garage, on the other hand, stopped working last week.
I suspect it was sulking after my earlier comments. Warming it up didn't
help
but taking the cover off and blowing out a load of dust did.
That's very musical too, just like every other CD player since about 1990.

My first DVD player, an expensive Marantz, always missed the first half
second
or so of a CD track. I don't know what happened to it but it's long gone.

--
Eiron.


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Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

Brian Gaff wrote:


Yes, as I recall the Sony machines used time sliced d to a and thus as
treble rises the phase shift becomes quite significant between channels.


** Sony would hardly build an audible fault into their very first CD players and they did not.

The channel to channel time offset involved was 11.3 microseconds or less than 4mm of travel through the air from loudspeaker to listener.



..... Phil

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article , Phil
Allison wrote:
RJH wrote:


** The famous phrase you cited NEVER applied to either of those, as
they are came along much later and were not intended for the release
of commercial recordings.

My recollection is that the phrase was just a marketing device,


** It was really neither.

The phrase alludes to two facts: that 44.1kHz, 16bit PCM is a no
compromise stereo audio recording technique and that factory made CDs
offer the potential of having an indefinite life, no matter how often
played.

Reasonable persons might well sum that combination up in a few words,
like those in the phrase.

Yes. The context when CD was released was the LP, which was vulnerable to
wear, scratches, etc. Most home record players would have worn the LPs from
the first playing, and damage would then slowly accumulate.

Compared to that it was an understandable advertising phrase to use as it
would convey what most consumers would have regarded as the key
advantages.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

I think you may have been unlucky, or had substandard blanks.

The oldest home made CDs I have date from getting on for 20 years ago,
and still play ok. Although not every CD player works with them.

Similar here for CD-Rs up to 15 years old. This may depend on the choice of
brand of disc and the choice of recorder, though. I routinely used the TDK
discs.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article , Bob Latham
wrote:

Minimserver provides UPnP services, so in theory any player that is UPnP
compatible can use Minimserver.

Which software/hardware do you use to access the tracks and play them?
As I say, the DS Audio application/NP30 is fine for me - except on
the matter of gapless playback.

There are 3 Sonos portable devices in our house and these use their own
app running on iPads and Samsung phones. Sonos is not UPnP it just needs
an SMB share from the NAS.


FWIW I just treat the NAS as part of the filing system on my machines and
run files to play them just as I would if they were on a given machine's
HDs. No need for any UPnP, etc.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article ,
Phil Allison wrote:
** Sony would hardly build an audible fault into their very first CD
players and they did not.

The channel to channel time offset involved was 11.3 microseconds or less than 4mm of travel through the air from loudspeaker to listener.

Could be a problem if the outputs are subsequently monoed, though?

--
*Who are these kids and why are they calling me Mom?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

On 25/01/2016 12:12, Brian Gaff wrote:

I also remember the discs with holes drilled in them which you could not
hear, Strangely I never did find any player which could manage this feat.

I've tried it with a 2mm drill bit. It works.

--
Eiron.

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


** Sony would hardly build an audible fault into their very first CD
players and they did not.

The channel to channel time offset involved was 11.3 microseconds or
less than 4mm of travel through the air from loudspeaker to listener.


Could be a problem if the outputs are subsequently monoed, though?


** Only if the CD was recorded in mono - and then it is redundant.



..... Phil

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article , Phil
Allison wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


** Sony would hardly build an audible fault into their very first CD
players and they did not.

The channel to channel time offset involved was 11.3 microseconds or
less than 4mm of travel through the air from loudspeaker to
listener.


Could be a problem if the outputs are subsequently monoed, though?


** Only if the CD was recorded in mono - and then it is redundant.

It was an issue some UK broadcast engineers noticed IIRC. They were aware
of it because a lot of radio and TV listening was in mono.

When playing CDs with a domestic stereo it didn't matter very much for the
reason you gave. Even when playing a CD of an old mono recording, the
effect was small. But it would cause treble roll-off for mono radio
reception.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article , Bob Latham
wrote:

FWIW I just treat the NAS as part of the filing system on my machines
and run files to play them just as I would if they were on a given
machine's HDs. No need for any UPnP, etc.


I personally didn't want a computer as the core source of my music
system. I wanted the convenience of full control from a phone or iPad
and no moving parts or laptops in the listening room.

In our HiFi Room the CD player is also the DAC. And I use a small computer
for playing files/iplayer

The living room is more reliant on a computer as I also use get_iplayer to
fetch the bulk of the TV we may watch, then play it later. For this reason
I'm also converting my old DVD video home recordings to mkv files to play.


I'm also not a fan of push system especially USB, ie. where a PC pushes
audio into a USB DAC.

Strictly speaking, the decent USB DACs 'pull' because they control the data
transfers to suit their clocking.

In my mind, pull systems, where the player pulls music from the NAS are
a more elegant and a better way to do it and it doesn't involve USB
which seems to be a can of worms. This is purely my personal opinion I
wouldn't claim it to be fact.

If a USB DAC is Audio Class 1/2 compliant it should just work with a
suitable computer. Alas, MicroSoft do tend to foul this up because of their
persistent lazy failure to support Class 2 by default, lumbering users with
a need for a 'driver'. Duh.

The main problem with Linux is beating Pulse Audio to death with a stick
and not having it rise from the grave when you put down the stick. 8-]

The big advantage of using ethernet-based 'just a filing system' methods is
that you can dodge such nonsense. But may then not know if the actual
playout device *is* playing without tampering with the samples. Depends, as
ever, on the device and its design.

Doing tests a few days ago I found that the monitor (actually a small TV)
my wife uses with her compuyer accepts 44.1k/16bit over HDMI, but then
outputs 48k from its optical spdif output. Sadly typical idiocy which most
users won't think of checking, or be able to measure. Means that a needless
conversion is being performed.

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:




** Sony would hardly build an audible fault into their very first CD
players and they did not.

The channel to channel time offset involved was 11.3 microseconds or
less than 4mm of travel through the air from loudspeaker to
listener.


Could be a problem if the outputs are subsequently monoed, though?


** Only if the CD was recorded in mono - and then it is redundant.


It was an issue some UK broadcast engineers noticed IIRC. They were aware
of it because a lot of radio and TV listening was in mono.


** That is simply non credible.


When playing CDs with a domestic stereo it didn't matter very much for the
reason you gave.

** It fact it does NOT matter - AT ALL !!!


Even when playing a CD of an old mono recording, the effect was small.

** There is NO effect when using a stereo system - AT ALL !!!

Good grief this is silly.


But it would cause treble roll-off for mono radio
reception.

** But only with a mono CD in use.

What does "mono radio" mean ?

Some poxy AM / FM portable ?

You gotta be joking.



.... Phil

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Phil
Allison wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


** Sony would hardly build an audible fault into their very first
CD players and they did not.

The channel to channel time offset involved was 11.3 microseconds
or less than 4mm of travel through the air from loudspeaker to
listener.


Could be a problem if the outputs are subsequently monoed, though?


** Only if the CD was recorded in mono - and then it is redundant.

It was an issue some UK broadcast engineers noticed IIRC. They were
aware of it because a lot of radio and TV listening was in mono.

Broadcasters were using this player?

When playing CDs with a domestic stereo it didn't matter very much for
the reason you gave. Even when playing a CD of an old mono recording,
the effect was small. But it would cause treble roll-off for mono radio
reception.

Plenty of so called stereo pop records have quite a degree of mono content.
A good test for the linearity of any system is to add (or subtract) the
two identical mono signals. Any timing etc errors will show up.

Of course if you only ever listen in stereo, possibly no problem.

At one time, stereo/mono compatibility was very real, with the majority
listening in mono to most things made in stereo.

--
*The first rule of holes: If you are in one, stop digging!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

It was an issue some UK broadcast engineers noticed IIRC. They were
aware of it because a lot of radio and TV listening was in mono.

Broadcasters were using this player?

Swap cart for horse. :-) My recollection is seeing reports that some had
considered it, but rejected it because mono listeners would get rolled away
HF when mono CDs were played into the programme.

So the correct description is that the *avoided* using it when the realised
what would happen.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article , Phil
Allison wrote:

It was an issue some UK broadcast engineers noticed IIRC. They were
aware of it because a lot of radio and TV listening was in mono.


** That is simply non credible.


But the reality in the UK at the time. The point was that broadcasters knew
that:

1) Many listeners to FM radio in the UK were were listening in mono,

2) Many older recordings were mono, even when re-released on Audio CD.

Given the availability of CD players that didn't time-offset the channels
it was easy to avoid the risk of problems by choosing a suitable
alternative.

If you want to argue, you'd need a Tardis to go back and argue with the
broadcasters of the time. I just recall reading about it at the time.

Afraid that in those days broadcasters - particularly at the BBC were
expected to obsess about the OGP. i.e. the Old Granny Problem of the
listeners who use older kit, or the older recordings to be played out.

But it would cause treble roll-off for mono radio reception.

** But only with a mono CD in use.

See (2) above.

What does "mono radio" mean ?

See (1) above.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

On 26/01/2016 13:54, Jim Lesurf wrote:
Afraid that in those days broadcasters - particularly at the BBC were
expected to obsess about the OGP. i.e. the Old Granny Problem of the
listeners who use older kit, or the older recordings to be played out.

A problem that has plagued those of us on the picture side right up to
the digital switch-over!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Couple of cd queries, model numbers later
 

In article ,
Graeme Wall wrote:
On 26/01/2016 13:54, Jim Lesurf wrote:
Afraid that in those days broadcasters - particularly at the BBC were
expected to obsess about the OGP. i.e. the Old Granny Problem of the
listeners who use older kit, or the older recordings to be played out.

A problem that has plagued those of us on the picture side right up to
the digital switch-over!

I take it you're referring to aspect ratio?

Not sure I like the modern solution - simply ignore it. So end up with
archive material being broadcast in the wrong aspect ratio, when an insert
to a prog. Would never do to have some of that 60" screen with borders to
the sides. ;-)

And ARCing it is often no better.

--
*I took an IQ test and the results were negative.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.