Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

DIGilog, never heard of that!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0beJZaOUYM

--
Adrian C

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

What. I never reckoned pre recorded ones.
Killed by dolby B.
They should have opted for dbx at the start.
Brian

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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
DIGilog, never heard of that!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0beJZaOUYM

--
Adrian C

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
What. I never reckoned pre recorded ones.
Killed by dolby B.
They should have opted for dbx at the start.
Brian

Many studios had both and so could have produced
bin loop masters in either format.. Maybe it was the
player manufacturers who chose Dolby B?

Iain



--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
DIGilog, never heard of that!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0beJZaOUYM

--
Adrian C

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
What. I never reckoned pre recorded ones.
Killed by dolby B.
They should have opted for dbx at the start.
Brian

Many studios had both and so could have produced
bin loop masters in either format.. Maybe it was the
player manufacturers who chose Dolby B?

IIRC, Philips only licensed the use of their format if their specification
was adhered to. Anything else would be a nonsense.

--
*Cover me. I'm changing lanes.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
What. I never reckoned pre recorded ones.
Killed by dolby B.
They should have opted for dbx at the start.
Brian

Many studios had both and so could have produced
bin loop masters in either format.. Maybe it was the
player manufacturers who chose Dolby B?

IIRC, Philips only licensed the use of their format if their specification
was adhered to. Anything else would be a nonsense.

Agreed. So was it they who specified Dolby B ?
It was the right choice!


Iain

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
What. I never reckoned pre recorded ones.
Killed by dolby B.
They should have opted for dbx at the start.
Brian

Many studios had both and so could have produced
bin loop masters in either format.. Maybe it was the
player manufacturers who chose Dolby B?

IIRC, Philips only licensed the use of their format if their specification
was adhered to. Anything else would be a nonsense.

Dobly B was not a part of the spec.

The C cassette was launched in 1963 and
Dolby B was first demonstrated five years later

Iain

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
IIRC, Philips only licensed the use of their format if their specification
was adhered to. Anything else would be a nonsense.

Dobly B was not a part of the spec.

The C cassette was launched in 1963 and
Dolby B was first demonstrated five years later

The Compact Cassette was introduced as a mono format for dictation
machines, etc. Philips were sensible enough to allow it to be used under
license but free of charge. But did retain a degree of control over the
basics.

I'm not sure if this included the use of Dolby B or not. But did over the
basics like speed.

--
*Failure is not an option. It's bundled with your software.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
The Compact Cassette was introduced as a mono format for dictation
machines, etc. Philips were sensible enough to allow it to be used under
license but free of charge. But did retain a degree of control over the
basics.

I'm not sure if this included the use of Dolby B or not. But did over
the basics like speed.

IIRC They mandated aspects like the physical dimensions (inc. things like
track widths and spacings), but I'm not sure about which 'electronic'
details they might have defined or limited.

They did try to flog their own 'noise reduction' (DNS?) system which was
single-ended. But I don't recall that they could (or attempted to) block or
control the adoption of Dolby. If nothing else, they couldn't have stopped
anyone from buying a Bolby adaptor box, anyway! Given how good Dolby was
they probably twigged quite quickly it would be good for sales, and hence
their own deck/cassette royalties!

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
IIRC, Philips only licensed the use of their format if their
specification
was adhered to. Anything else would be a nonsense.

Dobly B was not a part of the spec.

The C cassette was launched in 1963 and
Dolby B was first demonstrated five years later

The Compact Cassette was introduced as a mono format for dictation
machines, etc. Philips were sensible enough to allow it to be used under
license but free of charge. But did retain a degree of control over the
basics.

I'm not sure if this included the use of Dolby B or not. But did over the
basics like speed.

The spec laid down in Sept 1963 could not have included Dolby B
as this was still five years away from the first demonstration in 1968

Iain

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
IIRC, Philips only licensed the use of their format if their
specification
was adhered to. Anything else would be a nonsense.

Dobly B was not a part of the spec.

The C cassette was launched in 1963 and
Dolby B was first demonstrated five years later

The Compact Cassette was introduced as a mono format for dictation
machines, etc. Philips were sensible enough to allow it to be used
under license but free of charge. But did retain a degree of control
over the basics.

I'm not sure if this included the use of Dolby B or not. But did over
the basics like speed.

The spec laid down in Sept 1963 could not have included Dolby B as this
was still five years away from the first demonstration in 1968

Yes - you made that point earlier.

Did you miss the bit about the original purpose of the compact cassette?

--
*With her marriage she got a new name and a dress.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
The Compact Cassette was introduced as a mono format for dictation
machines, etc. Philips were sensible enough to allow it to be used
under license but free of charge. But did retain a degree of control
over the basics.

I'm not sure if this included the use of Dolby B or not. But did over
the basics like speed.

IIRC They mandated aspects like the physical dimensions (inc. things like
track widths and spacings), but I'm not sure about which 'electronic'
details they might have defined or limited.

Yes. But then they probably couldn't guess what might be developed down
the line. Like Dolby B and much better tape.

They did try to flog their own 'noise reduction' (DNS?) system which was
single-ended. But I don't recall that they could (or attempted to) block
or control the adoption of Dolby. If nothing else, they couldn't have
stopped anyone from buying a Bolby adaptor box, anyway! Given how good
Dolby was they probably twigged quite quickly it would be good for
sales, and hence their own deck/cassette royalties!

Ah - of course. DNS.

I've a feeling that the majority of music cassettes with Dolby B were
actually listened to - in the car etc - with Dolby switched off. ;-)

--
*Why do the two "sanction"s (noun and verb) mean opposites?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

On 28/01/2017 11:37, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've a feeling that the majority of music cassettes with Dolby B were
actually listened to - in the car etc - with Dolby switched off. ;-)

I once had a car with both Dolby B and Dolby C!

--
Eiron.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article ,
Eiron wrote:
On 28/01/2017 11:37, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've a feeling that the majority of music cassettes with Dolby B were
actually listened to - in the car etc - with Dolby switched off. ;-)

I once had a car with both Dolby B and Dolby C!

Posh. ;-)

The last generation of analogue 1/4" pro tape machines I saw had Dolby SR.
I was very impressed with that. In practice, not far short of digital
noise wise.

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

Jim Lesurf:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
The Compact Cassette was introduced as a mono format for dictation
machines, etc. Philips were sensible enough to allow it to be used
under
license but free of charge. But did retain a degree of control over
the
basics.

I'm not sure if this included the use of Dolby B or not. But did
over
the basics like speed.

IIRC They mandated aspects like the physical dimensions (inc. things
like
track widths and spacings), but I'm not sure about which 'electronic'
details they might have defined or limited.

They did try to flog their own 'noise reduction' (DNS?) system which
was
single-ended. But I don't recall that they could (or attempted to)
block or
control the adoption of Dolby. If nothing else, they couldn't have
stopped
anyone from buying a Bolby adaptor box, anyway! Given how good Dolby
was
they probably twigged quite quickly it would be good for sales, and
hence
their own deck/cassette royalties!

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics
http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

It wasn't DNS but DNL for Dynamic Noise Limiting - it was single ended
(didn't do anyhting during recording) and didn't work that well
(according to my ears). You could use it with Dolby and get a further
improvement to signal to noise ratio and one or two cassetted decs
allowed this - it didn't catch on so I assume that my impression was not
untypical.

http://audiotools.com/noise.html

https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_li.../ad-1800.shtml

MK

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article , Michael Kellett
wrote:
Jim Lesurf:


They did try to flog their own 'noise reduction' (DNS?) system which
was
single-ended.


It wasn't DNS but DNL for Dynamic Noise Limiting - it was single ended
(didn't do anyhting during recording) and didn't work that well
(according to my ears). You could use it with Dolby and get a further
improvement to signal to noise ratio and one or two cassetted decs
allowed this - it didn't catch on so I assume that my impression was not
untypical.

Thanks. I couldn't recall the precise term. Too long ago! :-)

I never heard it in practice. It had essentially vanished before I got
around to buying a cassette deck. But I'm not amazed it didn't catch on.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
The last generation of analogue 1/4" pro tape machines I saw had Dolby SR.
I was very impressed with that. In practice, not far short of digital
noise wise.

And still in demand. The wide-frame version of the Studer A80/24track
has a compartment under the transport into which an SR rack fitted nicely.

Many producers like to have their project recorded on analogue multitrack
and then transferred to a DAW for editing, post and mixing - the best of
both worlds. Once transferred to and backed-up, the analogue tapes are
bulk-erased and used again. Usually there is only a nominal charge for
the use of the tape.

Iain

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Michael Kellett
wrote:
Jim Lesurf:


They did try to flog their own 'noise reduction' (DNS?) system which
was
single-ended.


It wasn't DNS but DNL for Dynamic Noise Limiting - it was single ended
(didn't do anyhting during recording) and didn't work that well
(according to my ears). You could use it with Dolby and get a further
improvement to signal to noise ratio and one or two cassetted decs
allowed this - it didn't catch on so I assume that my impression was not
untypical.

Thanks. I couldn't recall the precise term. Too long ago! :-)

I never heard it in practice. It had essentially vanished before I got
around to buying a cassette deck. But I'm not amazed it didn't catch on.


Prerecorded cassettes were always something of a compromise
(high-speed loop-bin duplication) but towards the end of that era,
chrome tape with Dolby B was starting to sound pretty good. RCA
issued some classical titles on chrome, as an in-car boxed set.
They were well received, and probably convinced people to buy
the vinyl and listen properly at home when then could. Just as people
nowadays who download and learn to like something may order the CD.
Ching,ching (cash register rings up a double sale:-)

Iain

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article , Iain Churches
wrote:
Prerecorded cassettes were always something of a compromise (high-speed
loop-bin duplication) but towards the end of that era, chrome tape with
Dolby B was starting to sound pretty good.

That reminds me that there was at least one company who did 'real time'
Cassette duplications for the sake of sound quality. I can't now recall
their name(s), though. Something like "White(something" perhaps was one of
them.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:
Prerecorded cassettes were always something of a compromise (high-speed
loop-bin duplication) but towards the end of that era, chrome tape with
Dolby B was starting to sound pretty good.

That reminds me that there was at least one company who did 'real time'
Cassette duplications for the sake of sound quality. I can't now recall
their name(s), though. Something like "White(something" perhaps was one of
them.

There were probably many. One I know of in North
London was called "SuperCassette" (original, eh?)
They had a large room with dexion shelves floor to
ceiling with two or three realtime high-end cassette
recorders (Nakamichi or something similar) on each
shelf. Each "aisle" was fed by its own "master
recorder" (Revox A77) with a studio copy of the
master running at 15 ips. The cassettes sounded
quite good!

Iain

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 23:35:04 +0200, Iain Churches wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:
Prerecorded cassettes were always something of a compromise
(high-speed loop-bin duplication) but towards the end of that era,
chrome tape with Dolby B was starting to sound pretty good.

That reminds me that there was at least one company who did 'real time'
Cassette duplications for the sake of sound quality. I can't now recall
their name(s), though. Something like "White(something" perhaps was one
of them.

There were probably many. One I know of in North London was called
"SuperCassette" (original, eh?) They had a large room with dexion
shelves floor to ceiling with two or three realtime high-end cassette
recorders (Nakamichi or something similar) on each shelf. Each "aisle"
was fed by its own "master recorder" (Revox A77) with a studio copy of
the master running at 15 ips. The cassettes sounded quite good!


I wonder, seeing as they were going to such an extreme, whether they
also ran the master and slaves in reverse to mitigate the phase delay
'distortion' effect on low frequency square wave test signals which made
such test signals look like triangle waves on playback when viewed on an
oscilloscope, or did they just accept that despite this very visible
departure from the original waveshape, no one could distinguish the
direct versus the phase distorted magnetic recording playback by ear
alone anyway? :-)

--
Johnny B Good

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article , Johnny B Good
wrote:

I wonder, seeing as they were going to such an extreme, whether they
also ran the master and slaves in reverse to mitigate the phase delay
'distortion' effect on low frequency square wave test signals which made
such test signals look like triangle waves on playback when viewed on
an oscilloscope, or did they just accept that despite this very visible
departure from the original waveshape, no one could distinguish the
direct versus the phase distorted magnetic recording playback by ear
alone anyway? :-)

The dc-blocking / highpass behaviour of audio systems in general tends to
'triangle wave' LF. I recall laughing out loud when I first saw how much a
QUAD 34 did this! 8-]

I'm not clear of the extent to which what you suggest would help much. It
might change the shape of the 'bumps'. But again, how many domestic
loudspeakers are phase-flat at LF?

That said, I'd be interested to know if anyone did as you ask, and how
effective it was.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

On 14/02/2017 09:40, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Johnny B Good
wrote:

I wonder, seeing as they were going to such an extreme, whether they
also ran the master and slaves in reverse to mitigate the phase delay
'distortion' effect on low frequency square wave test signals which made
such test signals look like triangle waves on playback when viewed on
an oscilloscope, or did they just accept that despite this very visible
departure from the original waveshape, no one could distinguish the
direct versus the phase distorted magnetic recording playback by ear
alone anyway? :-)

The dc-blocking / highpass behaviour of audio systems in general tends to
'triangle wave' LF. I recall laughing out loud when I first saw how much a
QUAD 34 did this! 8-]

I'm not clear of the extent to which what you suggest would help much. It
might change the shape of the 'bumps'. But again, how many domestic
loudspeakers are phase-flat at LF?

That said, I'd be interested to know if anyone did as you ask, and how
effective it was.

But playing music backwards will reveal the secret messages and summon
the prince of darkness to release the magic smoke from your transistors
and the primordial slime from your electrolytics.

--
Eiron.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

On 14/02/2017 13:27, Eiron wrote:
On 14/02/2017 09:40, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Johnny B Good
wrote:

I wonder, seeing as they were going to such an extreme, whether they
also ran the master and slaves in reverse to mitigate the phase delay
'distortion' effect on low frequency square wave test signals which made
such test signals look like triangle waves on playback when viewed on
an oscilloscope, or did they just accept that despite this very visible
departure from the original waveshape, no one could distinguish the
direct versus the phase distorted magnetic recording playback by ear
alone anyway? :-)

The dc-blocking / highpass behaviour of audio systems in general tends to
'triangle wave' LF. I recall laughing out loud when I first saw how
much a
QUAD 34 did this! 8-]

I'm not clear of the extent to which what you suggest would help much. It
might change the shape of the 'bumps'. But again, how many domestic
loudspeakers are phase-flat at LF?

That said, I'd be interested to know if anyone did as you ask, and how
effective it was.

But playing music backwards will reveal the secret messages and summon
the prince of darkness to release the magic smoke from your transistors
and the primordial slime from your electrolytics.


Paul is Dead!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
I wonder, seeing as they were going to such an extreme, whether they
also ran the master and slaves in reverse to mitigate the phase delay
'distortion' effect on low frequency square wave test signals which made
such test signals look like triangle waves on playback when viewed on an
oscilloscope, or did they just accept that despite this very visible
departure from the original waveshape, no one could distinguish the
direct versus the phase distorted magnetic recording playback by ear
alone anyway? :-)

It was common practice to copy 1/4" tapes backwards. Although was never
quite sure if it worked any better. ;-)

--
*Your kid may be an honours student, but you're still an idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article ,
Eiron wrote:
But playing music backwards will reveal the secret messages and summon
the prince of darkness to release the magic smoke from your transistors
and the primordial slime from your electrolytics.

;-) How things change in such a short time.

--
*It's this dirty because I washed it with your wife's knickers*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
I wonder, seeing as they were going to such an extreme, whether they
also ran the master and slaves in reverse to mitigate the phase delay
'distortion' effect on low frequency square wave test signals which made
such test signals look like triangle waves on playback when viewed on an
oscilloscope, or did they just accept that despite this very visible
departure from the original waveshape, no one could distinguish the
direct versus the phase distorted magnetic recording playback by ear
alone anyway? :-)

It was common practice to copy 1/4" tapes backwards. Although was never
quite sure if it worked any better. ;-)

As I recall they were copied head to tail (otherwise
how could the transfer personnel listen for sticky
edits or droupouts?) but stored tail out.

Copy facilities and archives still adhere to this.

Iain

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Johnny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 23:35:04 +0200, Iain Churches wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:
Prerecorded cassettes were always something of a compromise
(high-speed loop-bin duplication) but towards the end of that era,
chrome tape with Dolby B was starting to sound pretty good.

That reminds me that there was at least one company who did 'real time'
Cassette duplications for the sake of sound quality. I can't now recall
their name(s), though. Something like "White(something" perhaps was one
of them.

There were probably many. One I know of in North London was called
"SuperCassette" (original, eh?) They had a large room with dexion
shelves floor to ceiling with two or three realtime high-end cassette
recorders (Nakamichi or something similar) on each shelf. Each "aisle"
was fed by its own "master recorder" (Revox A77) with a studio copy of
the master running at 15 ips. The cassettes sounded quite good!


I wonder, seeing as they were going to such an extreme, whether they
also ran the master and slaves in reverse to mitigate the phase delay
'distortion' effect on low frequency square wave test signals which made
such test signals look like triangle waves on playback when viewed on an
oscilloscope, or did they just accept that despite this very visible
departure from the original waveshape, no one could distinguish the
direct versus the phase distorted magnetic recording playback by ear
alone anyway? :-)

The system was a simple one, and only needed two young
girls operators to keep it running. As soon as the EOT switch
clicked on the Revox one of them walked along the row,
ejecting the cassettes and putting in new ones.
The other dabbed the Revox replay head with a spot of Isoprop,
rewound the"master" and then helped with the casette replacement.
In a matter of minutes they were ready to go again. There was
a pair of headphones connected to the Revox (QC ?) I did
not see them used.

Iain

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
It was common practice to copy 1/4" tapes backwards. Although was never
quite sure if it worked any better. ;-)

As I recall they were copied head to tail (otherwise
how could the transfer personnel listen for sticky
edits or droupouts?)

You'd not notice a sticky edit or a dropout on a tape being played
backwards? OK.

Did you really have many problems with dropouts?

--
*The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
It was common practice to copy 1/4" tapes backwards. Although was never
quite sure if it worked any better. ;-)

As I recall they were copied head to tail (otherwise
how could the transfer personnel listen for sticky
edits or droupouts?)

You'd not notice a sticky edit or a dropout on a tape being played
backwards? OK.

Someone had to monitor the copy carefully from start to finish,
so there was no sense to listen to it backwards.
Also it was a good opportunity for the op to learn the
repertoire. Most studio trainees started as assistants in a
tape copying room.

Did you really have many problems with dropouts?

Not often. But still one had to listen for them. We had
a third party client who used a British tape (Ilford Zonal)
which was not as good as BASF, Agfa or Ampex.
Copies were often going to overseas agents who
used them to cut disc masters so they had to be pristine.

Iain

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Did you really have many problems with dropouts?

Not often. But still one had to listen for them. We had
a third party client who used a British tape (Ilford Zonal)
which was not as good as BASF, Agfa or Ampex.
Copies were often going to overseas agents who
used them to cut disc masters so they had to be pristine.

The answer then is to use decent tape and cut down on the labour involved
in checking copies.

BTW, if this client master on Zonal had dropouts, just what did your
trainee do about it? Phone them up and insist they arrange another
recording session?

--
*Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
Did you really have many problems with dropouts?

Not often. But still one had to listen for them. We had
a third party client who used a British tape (Ilford Zonal)
which was not as good as BASF, Agfa or Ampex.
Copies were often going to overseas agents who
used them to cut disc masters so they had to be pristine.

The answer then is to use decent tape and cut down on the labour involved
in checking copies.

No. The answer is to do it properly. And that's what we did:-)
Every single copy was monitored, and the op (not his/her trainee)
had to sign a QC card which went into the tape box.

You cannot dictate to a customer what tape he uses
for his masters. Some of the material we handled was
from the very early fifties. Ilford was OK from new,
but did not age well. We did not see much of it.
It may also be that the material was not stored in
optimum conditions, and early editing tape oozed
adhesive

We had an excellent score library, and, if you were
doing classical copying, you could order up miniature
scores for the music you would be copying the next
day and these would be waiting in the progress room
for you first thing in the morning. So you spent the first
stage of your recording career listening to masters of
world-class classical recordings on excellent equipment, l
istening to/reading/learning the classical repertoire, and
soaking up the sound. It was amazing!

BTW, if this client master on Zonal had dropouts, just what did your
trainee do about it? (Rubbish snipped)

Every trainee worked with an experienced op who was
ultimately responsible for the material copied in his/her room.
There was also a dept supervisor who moved from room to
room during the day. It was amazingly well organised, and no
doubt very profitable:-)

If there was an anomaly, the progress room manager
was informed. He tried to get another copy, perhaps
from a B master if one was available. Otherwise, the
client would listen to and sanction the copy.
That was standard routine everywhere.

Iain

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
The answer then is to use decent tape and cut down on the labour
involved in checking copies.

No. The answer is to do it properly. And that's what we did:-)
Every single copy was monitored, and the op (not his/her trainee)
had to sign a QC card which went into the tape box.

Which in your rarefied world would mean every single commercial recording
was perfect in every way. ;-)

--
*Save the whale - I'll have it for my supper*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
BTW, if this client master on Zonal had dropouts, just what did your
trainee do about it? (Rubbish snipped)

Every trainee worked with an experienced op who was
ultimately responsible for the material copied in his/her room.
There was also a dept supervisor who moved from room to
room during the day. It was amazingly well organised, and no
doubt very profitable:-)

Right. So to copy any tape required a trainee, an experience 'op' and a
supervisor. Does this facility still exist? ;-)

Interesting you found my question about what you would do if there was
dropout on the master tape rubbish.

Perhaps you'd have to go to the CEO for that?

--
*I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
The answer then is to use decent tape and cut down on the labour
involved in checking copies.

No. The answer is to do it properly. And that's what we did:-)
Every single copy was monitored, and the op (not his/her trainee)
had to sign a QC card which went into the tape box.

Which in your rarefied world would mean every single commercial recording
was perfect in every way. ;-)

What a strange assumption!

It simply means that the copy was a close as
technically possible to the original. Tape duplication
was an important part of studio activity. We had
ten rooms.

It was also a useful place for trainees to learn about
SATs, tape machine alignment, setting the phase
(with the goniometer of course:-) and Dolby
set up. Every master had an "aligngment run" at the
start. Track ID, then 1kHz (level). 15kHz for
azimuth (goniometer:-)). Then bands from 10kH
down to 50Hz for setup, top, mid and lf.

The op recorded a similar set of tones at the head of the
copy tape, using the built-in generator in the console.
That was standard practice in every major record company
in the UK, and so can hardly be described as rarefied.

Iain

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
It simply means that the copy was a close as
technically possible to the original. Tape duplication
was an important part of studio activity. We had
ten rooms.

Where was 'we', Iain?

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Iain Churches wrote:
BTW, if this client master on Zonal had dropouts, just what did your
trainee do about it? (Rubbish snipped)

Every trainee worked with an experienced op who was
ultimately responsible for the material copied in his/her room.
There was also a dept supervisor who moved from room to
room during the day. It was amazingly well organised, and no
doubt very profitable:-)

Right. So to copy any tape required a trainee, an experience 'op' and a
supervisor.

Each room has its own permanent op, and trainees who were
"passing through", learning tape copy, disc cutting, editing etc before
starting as assistants in the studios. These were very important training
grounds in which budding recording engineers could learn the essential
basic skills of their craft.

Interesting you found my question about what you would do if there was
dropout on the master tape rubbish.

I answered in full your question about dropouts.
It was your comment about demanding a new recording that was
rubbish.

Iain

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:57:47 +0200, Iain Churches wrote:

"Johnny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 23:35:04 +0200, Iain Churches wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:
Prerecorded cassettes were always something of a compromise
(high-speed loop-bin duplication) but towards the end of that era,
chrome tape with Dolby B was starting to sound pretty good.

That reminds me that there was at least one company who did 'real
time'
Cassette duplications for the sake of sound quality. I can't now
recall their name(s), though. Something like "White(something"
perhaps was one of them.

There were probably many. One I know of in North London was called
"SuperCassette" (original, eh?) They had a large room with dexion
shelves floor to ceiling with two or three realtime high-end cassette
recorders (Nakamichi or something similar) on each shelf. Each
"aisle"
was fed by its own "master recorder" (Revox A77) with a studio copy of
the master running at 15 ips. The cassettes sounded quite good!


I wonder, seeing as they were going to such an extreme, whether they
also ran the master and slaves in reverse to mitigate the phase delay
'distortion' effect on low frequency square wave test signals which
made such test signals look like triangle waves on playback when viewed
on an oscilloscope, or did they just accept that despite this very
visible departure from the original waveshape, no one could distinguish
the direct versus the phase distorted magnetic recording playback by
ear alone anyway? :-)

The system was a simple one, and only needed two young girls operators
to keep it running. As soon as the EOT switch clicked on the Revox one
of them walked along the row, ejecting the cassettes and putting in new
ones.
The other dabbed the Revox replay head with a spot of Isoprop, rewound
the"master" and then helped with the casette replacement.

I would hope the other YL would have done a *lot* more than just dab the
replay head alone with a "spot of isopropyl alcohol". Never mind the
replay head, you also have to decontaminate the rest of the tape path
components (guides, capstain(s), pinchwheel(s), erase and record heads,
*everything* the master tape has to negotiate in its transit between the
supply and take up reels) even when using the modern Japanese Maxell and
TDK master tape formulations which showed up the deficiencies of EMI,
Ampex and Scotch tape formulations that had once been regarded as leaders
in magnetic tape technology.

Even the cassette recording slaves needed similar levels of TLC, even if
it was administered more sparingly (perhaps every second or third
cassette's worth of duty).

In a matter of minutes they were ready to go again. There was a pair of
headphones connected to the Revox (QC ?) I did not see them used.

They probably relied on spot checks of the cassette dubs, rarely needing
to audition the master playback quality unless they were attempting to
copy from a master made using Philips tape which had a tendency to clog
ordinary Mu-metal heads in less than 1800 feet of tape ime (the only tape
decks capable of getting a clean playback in a single pass of 1800/2400
foot reels of Philips tape were those blessed with glass crystal heads
such as the Akai GX630DB and the GX747 decks I used (and still own).

BTW, when I mentioned "low frequency square wave test signals", I meant
frequencies in the range 300 to 900 Hz, which I think might be better
described as 'mid frequency' rather than low - my bad.

The point being that they'd be safely above the low frequency cut off
point of any decent amplifier or tape deck whilst still allowing odd
harmonics up to at least the 7th to be reproduced below the typical 16 to
22KHz high frequency cut off point of a high quality cassette or reel to
reel deck.

Passing a 1KHz square wave through a typical amplifier with a 20 to 20K
Hz frequency response would retain the original waveshape as examined on
an oscilloscope, albeit with ripples and rounded shoulders due to the
limited bandwidth. Playing back such a test wave from a magnetic
recording boasting a similar overall frequency response to that of the
reference amplifier would show the classic triangularisation distortion
effect typical of magnetic recordings.

"Distortion" that was distressingly visible on an oscilloscope trace yet
a seemingly inaudible form of distortion. I guess there was some concern
over allowing this form of distortion to 'multiply' when creating second
generation dubs, hence the trick of running the master and the slaves in
reverse to successfully largely cancel this "visible on a 'scope trace"
effect on the 2nd gen copies themselves.

The last words I recall reading in regard of this phenomena was the
phrase, "Thankfully, our ears seem totally insensitive to phase delay
distortion." so I guess such 'phase distortion" correction measures as
dubbing in reverse were never (widely, if ever) adopted. I only mentioned
it in case anyone had had any experience of using this technique to
achieve the "best possible" quality dubs from analogue master tapes.

These days, any such phase distortions in original tape recordings can
now be dealt with using DSP technology, a technology that was becoming
available to the music industry with the advent of the Compact Disk in
the early 80s. I'm guessing the technique of reverse dubbing would have
had only a narrow window of ascendency of less than a decade between the
advent of the music-cassette and that of the Compact Disk.

--
Johnny B Good

Techmoan: Pre-recorded Cassettes' Last Stand
 

"Johnny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Feb 2017 17:57:47 +0200, Iain Churches wrote:

"Johnny B Good" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 23:35:04 +0200, Iain Churches wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
In article , Iain Churches
wrote:
Prerecorded cassettes were always something of a compromise
(high-speed loop-bin duplication) but towards the end of that era,
chrome tape with Dolby B was starting to sound pretty good.

That reminds me that there was at least one company who did 'real
time'
Cassette duplications for the sake of sound quality. I can't now
recall their name(s), though. Something like "White(something"
perhaps was one of them.

There were probably many. One I know of in North London was called
"SuperCassette" (original, eh?) They had a large room with dexion
shelves floor to ceiling with two or three realtime high-end cassette
recorders (Nakamichi or something similar) on each shelf. Each
"aisle"
was fed by its own "master recorder" (Revox A77) with a studio copy of
the master running at 15 ips. The cassettes sounded quite good!


I wonder, seeing as they were going to such an extreme, whether they
also ran the master and slaves in reverse to mitigate the phase delay
'distortion' effect on low frequency square wave test signals which
made such test signals look like triangle waves on playback when viewed
on an oscilloscope, or did they just accept that despite this very
visible departure from the original waveshape, no one could distinguish
the direct versus the phase distorted magnetic recording playback by
ear alone anyway? :-)

The system was a simple one, and only needed two young girls operators
to keep it running. As soon as the EOT switch clicked on the Revox one
of them walked along the row, ejecting the cassettes and putting in new
ones.
The other dabbed the Revox replay head with a spot of Isoprop, rewound
the"master" and then helped with the casette replacement.

I would hope the other YL would have done a *lot* more than just dab the
replay head alone with a "spot of isopropyl alcohol". Never mind the
replay head, you also have to decontaminate the rest of the tape path
components (guides, capstain(s), pinchwheel(s), erase and record heads,
*everything* the master tape has to negotiate in its transit between the
supply and take up reels) even when using the modern Japanese Maxell and
TDK master tape formulations which showed up the deficiencies of EMI,
Ampex and Scotch tape formulations that had once been regarded as leaders
in magnetic tape technology.

None of the cassette decks received any TLC in the
short time I watched the process. Though without
doubt they had a more thorough cleaning regime after
a fixed number of passes.

The master machines at the head of each aisle were
started at intervals, so that as soon as the tape finished
they were busy reloading, before moving to the next
aisle where the master was in the last few turns,
and repeating the process.

As the production level was far below that of a loop
bin system, it would have been interested to know how
much extra they could charge per cassette for enhanced
quality, and real-time copying.


Iain