Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

In article , Andy
Furniss spam@spam wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:
[snip]

With the caveat that I have no ides what distros do, assuming here that
there is nothing like ntpd running or ntpd -q via cron changing the time.

If your time is roughly right before starting a recording you could just
as root/sudo do something like

date --set '-1 minute'

then set it back +1 minute after it's finished.

Thanks, I'll experiment with that at some point. :-)

I've cross-referenced this to uk.rec.audio as it may interest people there
as well at this point. I've just put up some *preliminary* results

http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/temp/in...lacresults.png

The upper graph shows the audio levels (peak power in each 0.1 sec block)
over a period in the evening of the 10th April, taken from the test R3 flac
stream.

Sample-by-sample I subtracted this from the equivalent 320k aac version.
The resulting set of sample 'difference' values is shown in the lower
graph. Again peak value per 0.1 sec block.

This probably overstates the level of the difference between aac and flac
as it is a peak per block. But the result is fairly consistent. I can
certainly *hear* the results if I play the 'diff' file.

Need to do more when I have more data. But interesting as indicating that
the flac does show different/better results than the aac.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

On 14 Apr, wrote:

Sample-by-sample I subtracted this from the equivalent 320k aac version.
The resulting set of sample 'difference' values is shown in the lower
graph. Again peak value per 0.1 sec block.


Sorry, just to clarify. The bottom graph shows how much smaller the 'diff'
is *than the signal*. i.e. overall, the difference between aac and flac is,
say, about 40dB below the flac or aac levels.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

Two follow-on issues I want to raise:

First...

I've been using the version of ffmpeg I built following the recipy given
here a while ago. This works fine on my laptop and main machine. I've made
a number of useful (and enjoyable!) R3 recordings using them.

But it doesn't work on another machine.

The machine where it fails to run is one which I installed xfce Mint 18.1
onto a few days ago. (32 bit version as it has a 32 bit cpu)

On that, when I try to run the ffmpeg executable I get

Error while loading shared libraries: libgnutls.so.26: cannot open shared
object: no such file or directory.

I assume this means it can't find libgnutls.so.26 ?

I've tried installing what I *thought* might be the relevant package(s)
from the respositories the machine offers. But still get the above. I don't
know if this means I haven't found it, or if the machine requires me to
re-build on it to make a version of ffmpeg it will be happy with. (Although
simply copying across the executable was fine on my other machines.)

This isn't a disaster as the other machines with older OS versions work
fine. But I'd like to sort it out if I can. So can someone point me at the
correct item to install - or explain if the diagnosis and fix is something
else, please?

Second...

The 18.1 install gives me a new version of FireFox. Is this suitable for
fetching the flac stream? Or does it need altering in some way? I noticed
that the OS install seemed to bundle 'flash' along with a lot of other
things. So I'm also wondering if I need to un-install that to avoid it
getting in the way. Anyone able to comment on these points. It would be
good to get FireFox working for the flash stream Proms. :-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

On Wed, 26 Apr 2017 18:14:01 +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote:

Error while loading shared libraries: libgnutls.so.26: cannot open
shared object: no such file or directory.

I assume this means it can't find libgnutls.so.26 ?

I've tried installing what I *thought* might be the relevant package(s)
from the respositories the machine offers. But still get the above. I
don't know if this means I haven't found it, or if the machine requires
me to re-build on it to make a version of ffmpeg it will be happy with.
(Although simply copying across the executable was fine on my other
machines.)

I've recently upgraded my last remaining Intel-based 32bit PAE systems
(Intel core-Duo and AMD dual Athlon hardware) to X86-64 operating systems
on the same hardware and have seen the same problem with code that is
using dynamically linked libraries. The fix has been simple: recompile
programs that fail this way in the X86_64 environment.

If a recompile fixes software moved from 32bit PAR to X86-64 than I;d
expect exactly the dame problem to occur and the same fix to work when
moving code on the opposite direction too.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
Two follow-on issues I want to raise:

First...

I've been using the version of ffmpeg I built following the recipy given
here a while ago. This works fine on my laptop and main machine. I've made
a number of useful (and enjoyable!) R3 recordings using them.

But it doesn't work on another machine.

The machine where it fails to run is one which I installed xfce Mint 18.1
onto a few days ago. (32 bit version as it has a 32 bit cpu)

On that, when I try to run the ffmpeg executable I get

Error while loading shared libraries: libgnutls.so.26: cannot open shared
object: no such file or directory.

I assume this means it can't find libgnutls.so.26 ?

Seems so. You can check the library usage of any executable with ldd, like so:

$ ldd /path/to/ffmpeg

Any libs which can't be found will be named as such. Then apt-file can
be used to find out the package which provides that file:

$ apt-get install apt-file
$ apt-file update
$ apt-file search libgnutls.so.26
libgnutls26: /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libgnutls.so.26
libgnutls26: /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libgnutls.so.26.22.4
libgnutls26-dbg: /usr/lib/debug/usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libgnutls.so.26.22.4

If you have this installed already, it could be a multi-arch issue, if
the binary was built on a non-multiarch distro for instance. Try using
LD_LIBRARY_PATH to help the loader, sonething like:

$ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu ffmpeg

Although to be honest I'd have expected Mint's libc6 to have
the multi-arch directories already named in its search paths via
/etc/ld.so.conf.d/i386-linux-gnu.conf .

I am trying to remember other causes of library problems but will have
to think. Hope this might help anyway,

Nick
--
"The Internet, a sort of ersatz counterfeit of real life"
-- Janet Street-Porter, BBC2, 19th March 1996

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

On 2017-04-26 17:14:01 +0000, Jim Lesurf said:

Two follow-on issues I want to raise:

Second...

The 18.1 install gives me a new version of FireFox. Is this suitable for
fetching the flac stream? Or does it need altering in some way? I noticed
that the OS install seemed to bundle 'flash' along with a lot of other
things. So I'm also wondering if I need to un-install that to avoid it
getting in the way. Anyone able to comment on these points. It would be
good to get FireFox working for the flash stream Proms. :-)

Jim

The BBC website suggests that Firefox downloaded from the repositories
might have been compiled without the necessary flags set and suggests
that it should be obtained directly from Mozilla.

Firefox 53.0 (installed as an update) on Linux Mint xfce (virtualized
on Mac) fails with the message "this content doesn't seem to be working"

Arthur

--
real email arthur at bellacat dot com

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

Arthur Quinn wrote:

Firefox 53.0 (installed as an update) on Linux Mint xfce (virtualized
on Mac) fails with the message "this content doesn't seem to be working"

Not on the FLAC test page, but on the BBC news page for video articles,
I sometimes get that error even with a kosher firefox, pressing ctrl-F5
and then play again it will usually work, so seems to incorrectly detect
which codec to use on my browser and the refresh fixes it.

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
Two follow-on issues I want to raise:

But it doesn't work on another machine.

The machine where it fails to run is one which I installed xfce Mint
18.1 onto a few days ago. (32 bit version as it has a 32 bit cpu)

On that, when I try to run the ffmpeg executable I get

Error while loading shared libraries: libgnutls.so.26: cannot open
shared object: no such file or directory.

I assume this means it can't find libgnutls.so.26 ?

Others have already answered really, but you can't really move binaries
about easily when 64bit/32bit are involved.

FWIW ... no such file or directory is the error you will get when mixing
32bit/64bit around so that error probably doesn't mean that gnutls is
not found.

TBH, I know nothing about multilib - pure 64bit LFS here, far too lazy
to do multilib LFS just for steam/old games, which is about all I miss
out on.

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

In article , Andy
Furniss spam@spam wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:
Two follow-on issues I want to raise:

But it doesn't work on another machine.

The machine where it fails to run is one which I installed xfce Mint
18.1 onto a few days ago. (32 bit version as it has a 32 bit cpu)

On that, when I try to run the ffmpeg executable I get

Error while loading shared libraries: libgnutls.so.26: cannot open
shared object: no such file or directory.

I assume this means it can't find libgnutls.so.26 ?

Others have already answered really, but you can't really move binaries
about easily when 64bit/32bit are involved.

FWIW ... no such file or directory is the error you will get when mixing
32bit/64bit around so that error probably doesn't mean that gnutls is
not found.

OK. However I should add that I've tended to use 32 bit distro versions
even on machines that may be 64bit. I do plan in future to use 64bit ones
for my next OS changes, but the laptop is 32 bit I think. However I've now
used uname and lsb_release on the laptop and got

3.13.0.24-generic

#46-ubuntu smp 19:08:14 i686

Linuxmint 17 Qiana

Which chimes with my thinking I installed it in 2014 if I'm interpreting
correctly.

The 'music' machine the fmpeg (built on the laptop) won't run on is Mint
18.1 installed just a few days ago. It is quite low powered so I tend to
avoid building anything on it unless I need to. I find that making ffmpeg
on the laptop takes a long time with the fan running flat out! Hate to
think what it would do to the low powered box. 8-]

TBH It doesn't matter that it won't run on that machine as I can use it on
two others anyway. It would have been occasionally convenient. However the
current flac trial is about to end, and we won't get more until the Proms.
At that point I'll probably be more focussed on how to use FireFox to play
the flac streams so far as that particular machine is concerned.

I've been told the flac will *only* be live for the Proms, not continuous
during that period for R3. Trying to find out if that means any fetching
has to be started at the 'right time' to avoid missing something.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

In article , Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Wed, 26 Apr 2017 18:14:01 +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote:

Error while loading shared libraries: libgnutls.so.26: cannot open
shared object: no such file or directory.

I assume this means it can't find libgnutls.so.26 ?

I've tried installing what I *thought* might be the relevant
package(s) from the respositories the machine offers. But still get
the above. I don't know if this means I haven't found it, or if the
machine requires me to re-build on it to make a version of ffmpeg it
will be happy with. (Although simply copying across the executable was
fine on my other machines.)

I've recently upgraded my last remaining Intel-based 32bit PAE systems
(Intel core-Duo and AMD dual Athlon hardware) to X86-64 operating
systems on the same hardware and have seen the same problem with code
that is using dynamically linked libraries. The fix has been simple:
recompile programs that fail this way in the X86_64 environment.

I think I've installed the 32 bit versions of the OSs in the machines I
have. Plan to go to 64 bit next time.

Some other excutables seem OK. For example I have a USB audio recorder
program I wrote some years ago. This uses the alsa dev libs, but may well
have taken what it needs into the executable. However it works with the new
OS.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 10:42:27 +0100, Andy Furniss wrote:

FWIW ... no such file or directory is the error you will get when mixing
32bit/64bit around so that error probably doesn't mean that gnutls is
not found.

I've most often seen the "can't fine libxxxxx.so" message, but I've also
seen the loader complain about the ELF format. I think the latter was a
binary that hadn't been recompiled for several years and could well have
last been compiled pre-PAE kernels.

TBH, I know nothing about multilib - pure 64bit LFS here, far too lazy
to do multilib LFS just for steam/old games, which is about all I miss
out on.

Its best to consider that the only programs that are going to run without
problems are scripts (Perl, awk and friends that don't generate permanent
p-code executables) and languages that compile but use runtime VMs (Java).

NOTE: some C programs, particularly those that haven't been recompiled
for a while, that were written for 32 bit architectures or that use casts
to map addresses into ints, typically for debugging displays, will throw
compilation errors, but these are easily fixed.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 12:03:55 +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote:

In article , Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Wed, 26 Apr 2017 18:14:01 +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote:

Error while loading shared libraries: libgnutls.so.26: cannot open
shared object: no such file or directory.

I assume this means it can't find libgnutls.so.26 ?

I've tried installing what I *thought* might be the relevant
package(s) from the respositories the machine offers. But still get
the above. I don't know if this means I haven't found it, or if the
machine requires me to re-build on it to make a version of ffmpeg it
will be happy with. (Although simply copying across the executable
was fine on my other machines.)

I've recently upgraded my last remaining Intel-based 32bit PAE systems
(Intel core-Duo and AMD dual Athlon hardware) to X86-64 operating
systems on the same hardware and have seen the same problem with code
that is using dynamically linked libraries. The fix has been simple:
recompile programs that fail this way in the X86_64 environment.

I think I've installed the 32 bit versions of the OSs in the machines I
have. Plan to go to 64 bit next time.

Don't forget that some libraries have what looks suspiciously like a
version number in their name. It that's what it is and the version
changes as the result of an OS upgrade or reinstall, then that could
prevent the library from being found and, again, a recompile should fix
that.

No source so you can't recompile? Then raise a bug so the maintainer gets
a heads-up to fix it.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

On Thu, 27 Apr 2017 12:00:12 +0100, Jim Lesurf wrote:

OK. However I should add that I've tended to use 32 bit distro versions
even on machines that may be 64bit. I do plan in future to use 64bit
ones for my next OS changes, but the laptop is 32 bit I think. However
I've now used uname and lsb_release on the laptop and got

So did I. Those eventually morphed into the PAE kernels I mentioned: PAE
is a form of extended addressing (typically to 40 bit addresses from 32
bits and the PAE kernels were happy to run to old binaries with 32 bit
addressing.

However, the move from 32b / 32b-PAE to X86_64 *does* generally require
recompilation of anything you've compiled yourself that not written in a
scripting language or that uses a VM like Java or Mono.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

In article , Martin Gregorie
wrote:
I think I've installed the 32 bit versions of the OSs in the machines
I have. Plan to go to 64 bit next time.

Don't forget that some libraries have what looks suspiciously like a
version number in their name. It that's what it is and the version
changes as the result of an OS upgrade or reinstall, then that could
prevent the library from being found and, again, a recompile should fix
that.

No source so you can't recompile? Then raise a bug so the maintainer
gets a heads-up to fix it.

I could refetch (git) the ffmpeg sources for this. But in this case:

A) It was more of a faff than usual as I have to shift back the sources and
add a patch. Although maybe that isn't needed now for the flac dash?

B) The machine in question is very low power, so the build would then
probably take a long time.

And in practice I don't need to run the result on this machine as it works
on two others I can use anyway. Just that it was a suprise that I couldn't
install libraries, etc to get it working.

On the other side of this: I just checked and the new distro has FF 50.1.
This uses the dash streams for the established 320k aac from iplayer by
default, which is nice. But lacks the awareness of being able to do this
for the flac trial (so the BBC webpages said). So I'm wondering if this
will be upgraded by the distro maintainers before the Proms. Anyone know if
they are aware of this? FF 51 can apparently now fetch the flac via dash
OK. Presumably in time this will ripple down into the distro version. (?)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

On 26/04/17 18:14, Jim Lesurf wrote:
Error while loading shared libraries: libgnutls.so.26: cannot open shared
object: no such file or directory.

When I've seen errors of this sort, it's usually been because of
a broken symbolic link. Typically, there should have been something like

libfred - libfred.5 - libfred.5.2

and somehow one of these has been corrupted, so that an executable that
looks for "libfred" finds a symlink to "libfred.4" or whatever instead.
Cured by re-linking.

--
Andy Walker,
Nottingham.

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Martin Gregorie
wrote:
I think I've installed the 32 bit versions of the OSs in the
machines I have. Plan to go to 64 bit next time.

Don't forget that some libraries have what looks suspiciously like
a version number in their name. It that's what it is and the
version changes as the result of an OS upgrade or reinstall, then
that could prevent the library from being found and, again, a
recompile should fix that.

No source so you can't recompile? Then raise a bug so the
maintainer gets a heads-up to fix it.

I could refetch (git) the ffmpeg sources for this. But in this case:

A) It was more of a faff than usual as I have to shift back the
sources and add a patch. Although maybe that isn't needed now for the
flac dash?

You would still need to, there's no new patch at time of writing.

B) The machine in question is very low power, so the build would
then probably take a long time.

And in practice I don't need to run the result on this machine as it
works on two others I can use anyway. Just that it was a suprise that
I couldn't install libraries, etc to get it working.

On the other side of this: I just checked and the new distro has FF
50.1. This uses the dash streams for the established 320k aac from
iplayer by default, which is nice.

The AAC streams are HLS not DASH AFAIK.

But lacks the awareness of being able to do this for the flac trial
(so the BBC webpages said). So I'm wondering if this will be upgraded
by the distro maintainers before the Proms. Anyone know if they are
aware of this? FF 51 can apparently now fetch the flac via dash OK.
Presumably in time this will ripple down into the distro version.
(?)

Don't know about distros, but a bin version of FF I tried needed pulse,
you have to build your own to get alsa, though maybe distros will build
like that.

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

In article , Andy
Furniss spam@spam wrote:
On the other side of this: I just checked and the new distro has FF
50.1. This uses the dash streams for the established 320k aac from
iplayer by default, which is nice.

The AAC streams are HLS not DASH AFAIK.

OK. However IIRC a right click did say 'DASH'. I'll check later on. My
memory isn't always reliable.


But lacks the awareness of being able to do this for the flac trial
(so the BBC webpages said). So I'm wondering if this will be upgraded
by the distro maintainers before the Proms. Anyone know if they are
aware of this? FF 51 can apparently now fetch the flac via dash OK.
Presumably in time this will ripple down into the distro version. (?)

Don't know about distros, but a bin version of FF I tried needed pulse,
you have to build your own to get alsa, though maybe distros will build
like that.

FWIW I used the OS controls on the panel to send the default output to the
USB device [1]. This is probably using Pulse. I've set the relevant
controls to 100% or '11'. This then let FF play the BBC iplayer out via the
USB DAC. So got it working despite the usual obsession distro people have
with assuming everyone *must* use pulse.

TBT My main difficulty here was the god-awful ergnomics of the way buttons,
etc, are shown by the default OS desktop. Not at all obvious which buttons
are 'on' and which are 'off'. Things like possibly using an 'x' to mean
something is *on*, or showing the 'button top' greyed as 'on'. Idiotic.
I had to experiment until I could work out what the appearance *actually*
meant from their effects! No doubt there is a more sensible 'theme' for
this, but if so, why not use it as the default rather than keep wanting
to 'impress' users with a 'k3wl' look that's disfunctional! :-/

At some point I'll use this to play an iplayer program and make a digital
capture.[2] Then compare that with using gip to get the file.

The aim is to let me compare what people will 'normally' get using their
system if they *don't* do things like use gip or ffmpeg, but simply use the
browser and OS as supplied. Personally, for iplayer I'l tend to use gip or
ffmpeg as it gives me a more direct way to get the audio data.

Jim

[1] Before doing this a command like "aplay foo.wave" wouldn't send
anything to the USB DAC and was clearly sending to the internal card. This
was *despite* my having added a .asoundrc file that specified the USB as
the default ALSA output pcm device. So it was clearly having the alsa
default grabbed by pulse and ignoring this. Although Audacious worked fine
into the USB once I'd set that as its output. Unlike previous occasions I
decided not to beat Pulse to death with a stick because I know most people
won't do that.

[2] The USB DAC setup has an spdif output I can record.


--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

On 28 Apr, wrote:

In article , Andy
Furniss spam@spam wrote:
On the other side of this: I just checked and the new distro has FF
50.1. This uses the dash streams for the established 320k aac from
iplayer by default, which is nice.

The AAC streams are HLS not DASH AFAIK.

OK. However IIRC a right click did say 'DASH'. I'll check later on. My
memory isn't always reliable.

Just tried playing programme from yesterday's R3. If I right click on the
plugin window whilst its playing I get a string which included

320kbps dash (af_limelight_uk_dash)

The winkin blinkin lighten on the DAC show the results as 48k and 24bit. So
pulse may be fiddling with the bits as this should be 16bit. But this may
be a 'feature' of whatever is being used to convert the aac into lpcm.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

Jim Lesurf wrote:
On 28 Apr, wrote:

In article , Andy
Furniss spam@spam wrote:
On the other side of this: I just checked and the new distro has FF
50.1. This uses the dash streams for the established 320k aac from
iplayer by default, which is nice.

The AAC streams are HLS not DASH AFAIK.

OK. However IIRC a right click did say 'DASH'. I'll check later on. My
memory isn't always reliable.

Just tried playing programme from yesterday's R3. If I right click on the
plugin window whilst its playing I get a string which included

320kbps dash (af_limelight_uk_dash)

Ahh, iplayer, yea get_iplayer does show dash or hls or flash for those.

I was thinking of the live streams - but then maybe there are dash urls
for those as well?
I only know the .m3u8 hls urls for those and currently I don't think mpv
would play any dash streams until the patch gets in to ffmpeg anyway.

Radio 3 test FLAC stream
 

I've just had an email from someone 'at the BBC' to tell me that what I'd
been told a while ago was incorrect. This is actually *good* news.

The plan is that *all* programmes on R3 during the Proms weeks will be flac
streamed. i.e. *not* only the actual Proms as I was previously told.

This makes sense as it saves having to turn things on and off and give
people time to start fetching, etc. It also makes me think the 'trial' was
judged a success. So it seems hopeful that flac will end up as a standard
stream at some later point.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html