What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

In article
,
D.M. Procida wrote:


In a hotel lobby today, I was leafing through an hi-fi magazine I
happened to see. It reviewed a CD player, opening with a sentence to the
effect that "the CD player as we know it may soon be dead".

This CD player (a Meridian, and rather expensive) apparently uses a
cheap CD-ROM drive to get the data off the disk, and can use the drive's
extra speed to read ahead and buffer it (allowing it for example to have
multiple goes at reading problematic areas of the disk) in pretty much
the way I suggested would be possible.

I assume it's this one:
https://www.meridian-audio.com/en/products/cd-players/reference-808v6/.

So maybe I'm not missing anything... although I do note that this
solution to the problem of playing CDs doesn't actually make the
business cheaper.

They aren't the only people who do this. The problem is that it simply
alters the area of operation. e.g. by reading at a higher speed the
bandwidth has to go up = more noise, etc. Thus increasing the read speed
means you increase the chance of errors that then require a re-read to deal
with. Ditto, more mechanical wobbles at higher wobble rates needing faster
servos, etc, etc.

The kinds of things that using cdparanoia from a terminal window tends to
show the user.

Jim

--
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What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:

Transfer to SSD has to be the answer to all these issues.

Once you've done the transfer. :-)

Alas, that then gives the metadata problems like not having the printed
leaflet handy, etc.

Jim

--
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What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes:

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:
However for some other types of recording, there will be no acoustic
'original' beyond what someone sitting at a mixing desk created as they
operated the controls to get a result they think will 'sell', or have
impact or please their target audience. Using a setup you would never get
to hear and which is unlike home hi-fi systems. In those cases you can't
access such a reference so just have to decide if you like the result or
not.

It's actually quite rare to have a totally electronic recording.
Most have vocals. Many real drums, guitars, and so on. All of which picked
up by microphones in exactly the same way as a classical piece.

And then it would be very rare to have an unprocessed acoustic
'original'. The recording session I did on Saturday involved my bass
going direct to the desk (no acoustic original) and, while the drums
were acoustic and recorded acoustically, I would suggest that it is
unlikley that any member of an audience would actually choose to
listen with their ear inside the bass drum, or next to either the top
or bottom skin of the snare, etc. You won't necessarily have electric
guitars miced up nowadays, and any instrument could be recorded dry
with the intention of putting effects on in the later production
stages. After all, if you have an effect in the instrument-amp or
instrument-desk chain, you're stuck with it, whereas if you record
dry, you can put on whatever you like (and that might well include amp
and cab sims). Hence, though I use chorus live on the bass (well, the
fretless and fretted 5s, if I ever use the 10-string live it won't be
with a chorus), I recorded it dry with the tone controls set flat.

--
Mike Fleming

What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

In article , Graeme Wall
writes:

On 21/11/2017 09:47, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , Mike Fleming
wrote:

"People make an awful lot of fuss, anyway, about the quality of the
sound they listen to. Have you noticed; they spend all that time trying
to get the exact effect of an orchestra actually playing in their
sitting room. Personally, I can't think of anything I should hate more
than an orchestra actually playing in my sitting room."

Misses a point that some of us may want to hear the "sound of the orchestra
in the *concert hall* " in our listening room - or at least as close to
that as we can get. And if - like me - you enjoy going to classical
concerts you may wish to do this. Or at least get as close to it as you
can. Something I'd love, not hate. No-one is demanding you or anyone else
*has* to want the same, though.

Does nobody remember A Song of Reproduction?

Just the two of us, it would appear.

--
Mike Fleming

What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

In article , Mike Fleming
wrote:
Does nobody remember A Song of Reproduction?

Just the two of us, it would appear.

Maybe that explains why more "flutter on your bottom" shows up these days.
:-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
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What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

On Wed, 22 Nov 2017 10:33:21 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
wrote:

In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:

Transfer to SSD has to be the answer to all these issues.

Once you've done the transfer. :-)

Alas, that then gives the metadata problems like not having the printed
leaflet handy, etc.

Jim

As long as you are online, all that metadata is available with no
effort. Anyway, there's nothing to stop you keeping the sleeve notes -
and the original disc .

d

---
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What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

Jim Lesurf said:
In article ,
Don Pearce wrote:

Transfer to SSD has to be the answer to all these issues.

Once you've done the transfer. :-)

The good news is, you only need to do it once.

Alas, that then gives the metadata problems like not having the printed
leaflet handy, etc.

Strictly speaking, that's not 'audio' ? ;-)

It's a point - but then again physical media have a metadata problem, too :
"you can't grep dead trees". Tagging Is Good.


As a clarinet player with no background in sound engineering, my concerns
are maybe a little off-centre here, but it's a very interesting thread, even
if I can't keep up - especially since I've been playing with 'making a
recording'. So this 'concert-hall' digression is intriguing for me. From the
POV of an instrumentalist with no-one to tell me what I should be doing, I
reckon I know what my instrument sounds like (if I'm playing it as nicely as
I can), better than any third party could, and _that_'s what I want people
to hear. It's a very idealised version of "reality" - I'm rather shocked at
how many little glitches slip through in my live playing (it's "the ill wind
that nobody blows good", like most wind instruments).

If anybody wishes to read my "off-centre" above as "eccentric", that'd be up
to them ...

--
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

In article , Don Pearce
wrote:
Alas, that then gives the metadata problems like not having the printed
leaflet handy, etc.

Jim

As long as you are online, all that metadata is available with no
effort.

In general, I play files with a simple audio player without using a browser
or web. So you condition essentially returns 'false' for me.

I do now have a 'DAP', but of course when this will be used, it isn't
connected to the net or any wireless, etc. So again, would return 'false'
as above.

Anyway, there's nothing to stop you keeping the sleeve notes -
and the original disc .

Scanning it is the problem. Otherwise if you have to find the CD booklet,
so you may as well keep the CD with it and play that. :-)

In general I've not bothered to rip CDs. More useful from my POV to make
transfers from old LPs. The resulting file *is* more convenient to play -
particularly if I'm in the kitchen, say. And also lets me deal with
'clicks'.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
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What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

In article , Richard
Robinson wrote:

If anybody wishes to read my "off-centre" above as "eccentric", that'd
be up to them ...

No worries. We're all barmy here. Entry requirement. 8-]

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
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What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

In article
,
D.M. Procida wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article
,
D.M. Procida wrote:
This CD player (a Meridian, and rather expensive) apparently uses a
cheap CD-ROM drive to get the data off the disk, and can use the
drive's extra speed to read ahead and buffer it (allowing it for
example to have multiple goes at reading problematic areas of the
disk) in pretty much the way I suggested would be possible.

I've got a CD 'jukebox' here. Either plays CDs direct, or rips them to
an internal hard drive. And trust me, you don't want a CD-Rom drive
spinning at speed in the same room as a CD you're listening to.

I know what a CD-ROM drive at full blast sounds like. However even the
cheapest ones now have quiet or silent modes; they don't all have to run
at top speed all the time.

Then the extra speed to read a dodgy CD rather pointless?

The Meridian solution seems to do as I imagined, needing neither to
operate fully in real-time or to require storage of the complete CD.

Is your CD jukebox a homegrown affair?

No - it's a relatively cheap Acoustic Solutions one I got given as faulty
ages ago and sorted. Works tolerably well for background use.

Daniele

--
*If love is blind, why is lingerie so popular?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've got a CD 'jukebox' here. Either plays CDs direct, or rips them to
an internal hard drive. And trust me, you don't want a CD-Rom drive
spinning at speed in the same room as a CD you're listening to.

I know what a CD-ROM drive at full blast sounds like. However even the
cheapest ones now have quiet or silent modes; they don't all have to run
at top speed all the time.

Then the extra speed to read a dodgy CD rather pointless?

I don't follow why it might be pointless.

Daniele

What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

In article
,
D.M. Procida wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've got a CD 'jukebox' here. Either plays CDs direct, or rips
them to an internal hard drive. And trust me, you don't want a
CD-Rom drive spinning at speed in the same room as a CD you're
listening to.

I know what a CD-ROM drive at full blast sounds like. However even
the cheapest ones now have quiet or silent modes; they don't all
have to run at top speed all the time.

Then the extra speed to read a dodgy CD rather pointless?

I don't follow why it might be pointless.

Because I'd have it on silent all the time. If a high speed device was
needed to read a faulty CD (that presumably can't be replaced) I'd use my
PC to rip it then copy. But then I've never bought a commercial CD that
won't work in an ordinary CD player anyway.

--
*IF ONE SYNCHRONIZED SWIMMER DROWNS, DO THE REST DROWN TOO?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article
,
D.M. Procida wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I've got a CD 'jukebox' here. Either plays CDs direct, or rips
them to an internal hard drive. And trust me, you don't want a
CD-Rom drive spinning at speed in the same room as a CD you're
listening to.

I know what a CD-ROM drive at full blast sounds like. However even
the cheapest ones now have quiet or silent modes; they don't all
have to run at top speed all the time.

Then the extra speed to read a dodgy CD rather pointless?

I don't follow why it might be pointless.

Because I'd have it on silent all the time. If a high speed device was
needed to read a faulty CD (that presumably can't be replaced) I'd use my
PC to rip it then copy. But then I've never bought a commercial CD that
won't work in an ordinary CD player anyway.

OK, but I think that's describing a different case - a player with high
capacity storage, rather than one with a RAM buffer.

Daniele

What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Then the extra speed to read a dodgy CD rather pointless?

Depends a bit on the speed in question. Running at, say, x4 speed should be
enough to allow a re-read or few given a buffer. But CDROM drives in
computers and ripping software may tend to try and read at far higher
speeds because they (I guess) take for granted that the user wants to rip a
disc ASAP.

At some point this extra speed becomes counter-productive - either leads to
so many more read errors requiring re-reads that the rate of reliable info
extraction maxes (or falls), or means loads of mechanical noise, or both.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Because I'd have it on silent all the time. If a high speed device was
needed to read a faulty CD (that presumably can't be replaced) I'd use
my PC to rip it then copy. But then I've never bought a commercial CD
that won't work in an ordinary CD player anyway.

I've one or two discs that none of my audio players will read, but a CDROM
drive will. Also one or two that reverse this quirk. Rare, but happens.
I've also some discs that work in one player but not another. Bit more
common, but again, rare. Difficult to know why in the absence of some
suitable test equipment.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa...o/electron.htm
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What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

On 22/11/2017 13:21, Don Pearce wrote:
Anyway, there's nothing to stop you keeping the sleeve notes -
and the original disc .

I've still got some gatefold LPs. They've been digitised, and the
recording cleaned up - but there's a lot to be said for a 24"x12" image...

Andy

What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

On 23/11/2017 10:05, Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Then the extra speed to read a dodgy CD rather pointless?

Depends a bit on the speed in question. Running at, say, x4 speed should be
enough to allow a re-read or few given a buffer. But CDROM drives in
computers and ripping software may tend to try and read at far higher
speeds because they (I guess) take for granted that the user wants to rip a
disc ASAP.

At some point this extra speed becomes counter-productive - either leads to
so many more read errors requiring re-reads that the rate of reliable info
extraction maxes (or falls), or means loads of mechanical noise, or both.

Quite a lot of computer drives will slow down as they run retries, which
tends to indicate reading does get easier at low speed.

One of my CDs I found in a hedge. It plays perfectly.

The only time I've had a dodgy one was some sort of pressing problem.
The manufacturer sent me a replacement disc, and I sent them back the
old disc with a report from the CD tester we had at work. It wasn't a
speck of dust, it was all over it, and I assume they had lots.

Andy

What is the point of expensive CD players?
 

In article , Vir Campestris
wrote:

One of my CDs I found in a hedge. It plays perfectly.

Not surprised. Often I can see no difference between discs that play fine
and the few that won't.

The only time I've had a dodgy one was some sort of pressing problem.
The manufacturer sent me a replacement disc, and I sent them back the
old disc with a report from the CD tester we had at work. It wasn't a
speck of dust, it was all over it, and I assume they had lots.

I returned a number of discs that had the 'brown rot' problem that PDO
created for a while. The replacements were all fine. But as previously
said, I also have various other discs that show problems. They are rare,
but crop up. Again, often with no eyeball detectable reasons.

Much lower levels of problems that I got with LPs back in the 1970s,
though!... :-)

Jim

--
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