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Preferred oil for turntable bearing



 
 
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  #1 (permalink)  
Old February 3rd 18, 05:15 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Johnny B Good
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default Preferred oil for turntable bearing

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 17:46:06 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2018-02-03, D.M. Procida
wrote:
What would you recommend (for an Acoustic Research "The AR Turntable")?


I think I've always put 3-in-1 in my Thorens t/table!


If it's the same type of bearing that's used in the TD125 (a sleeve
bearing suspended on a single steel ball), I suspect that may not have
been the wisest choice. When I bought the Fluid Damper kit for my SME3009
S2 Improved Fixed Headshell tone arm, I sacrificed a few drops of the
silicone oil as turntable spindle lubricant (after washing out the
original lubricant).

My reasoning at the time some 40 odd years ago, being that such a slowly
rotating sleeve bearing needed a high viscosity and thick grease like
(but without the disadvantage of grease) lubricant to prevent 'bearing
chatter'. In effect, I'd turned to the "Fluid Dynamic Bearing" solution
pioneered by Samsung some 25 years later in its award winning hard disk
drives to not only silence their drives but also improve the stability of
the platter spindle.

It's nice to have my 'solution' ratified by no less a manufacturer than
Samsung's Hard disk storage division. :-) Also, the turntable is still
working to perfection to this day. If that AR turntable uses a similar
spindle sleeve bearing, I think I can safely recommend a viscous silicone
oil as a tried and tested lubricant.

--
Johnny B Good
  #2 (permalink)  
Old February 3rd 18, 05:21 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Don Pearce[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,358
Default Preferred oil for turntable bearing

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 18:15:03 GMT, Johnny B Good
wrote:

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 17:46:06 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2018-02-03, D.M. Procida
wrote:
What would you recommend (for an Acoustic Research "The AR Turntable")?


I think I've always put 3-in-1 in my Thorens t/table!


If it's the same type of bearing that's used in the TD125 (a sleeve
bearing suspended on a single steel ball), I suspect that may not have
been the wisest choice. When I bought the Fluid Damper kit for my SME3009
S2 Improved Fixed Headshell tone arm, I sacrificed a few drops of the
silicone oil as turntable spindle lubricant (after washing out the
original lubricant).

My reasoning at the time some 40 odd years ago, being that such a slowly
rotating sleeve bearing needed a high viscosity and thick grease like
(but without the disadvantage of grease) lubricant to prevent 'bearing
chatter'. In effect, I'd turned to the "Fluid Dynamic Bearing" solution
pioneered by Samsung some 25 years later in its award winning hard disk
drives to not only silence their drives but also improve the stability of
the platter spindle.

It's nice to have my 'solution' ratified by no less a manufacturer than
Samsung's Hard disk storage division. :-) Also, the turntable is still
working to perfection to this day. If that AR turntable uses a similar
spindle sleeve bearing, I think I can safely recommend a viscous silicone
oil as a tried and tested lubricant.


When I had my old Connoisseur BD1, the bearing was such a close fit
that with heavy oil the shaft didn't drop onto the ball but remained
floating. It would stay that way for weeks.

d

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  #3 (permalink)  
Old February 3rd 18, 07:50 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Johnny B Good
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default Preferred oil for turntable bearing

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 18:21:39 +0000, Don Pearce wrote:

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 18:15:03 GMT, Johnny B Good
wrote:

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 17:46:06 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2018-02-03, D.M. Procida
wrote:
What would you recommend (for an Acoustic Research "The AR
Turntable")?

I think I've always put 3-in-1 in my Thorens t/table!


If it's the same type of bearing that's used in the TD125 (a sleeve
bearing suspended on a single steel ball), I suspect that may not have
been the wisest choice. When I bought the Fluid Damper kit for my
SME3009 S2 Improved Fixed Headshell tone arm, I sacrificed a few drops
of the silicone oil as turntable spindle lubricant (after washing out
the original lubricant).

My reasoning at the time some 40 odd years ago, being that such a
slowly
rotating sleeve bearing needed a high viscosity and thick grease like
(but without the disadvantage of grease) lubricant to prevent 'bearing
chatter'. In effect, I'd turned to the "Fluid Dynamic Bearing" solution
pioneered by Samsung some 25 years later in its award winning hard disk
drives to not only silence their drives but also improve the stability
of the platter spindle.

It's nice to have my 'solution' ratified by no less a manufacturer than
Samsung's Hard disk storage division. :-) Also, the turntable is still
working to perfection to this day. If that AR turntable uses a similar
spindle sleeve bearing, I think I can safely recommend a viscous
silicone oil as a tried and tested lubricant.


When I had my old Connoisseur BD1, the bearing was such a close fit that
with heavy oil the shaft didn't drop onto the ball but remained
floating. It would stay that way for weeks.


I witnessed a similar effect in my own case. ISTR that even a few hours
afterwards, I could still depress the turntable by a millimetre or so. I
guess it must have taken a day or two for it to finally come to rest
against the ball bearing.

Temporarily maladjusting the tone arm baseplate so as to allow the
stylus to rest in the 'dimple' on the top of the spindle, allowed me to
audition the intrinsic turntable 'rumble' to compare against the pressed
in rumble of actual vinyl records which seemed to be a good one or two
orders of magnitude greater than the intrinsic rumble level of the
turntable itself.

The design of that Thorens deck was a master class in how to produce the
perfect vinyl record playback system. The separation between the sub-
chassis where the 16 pole synchronous motor was mounted was nothing short
of perfection, leaving the platter and tone arm assembly floating in
silent isolation from both the motor and the external environment. There
was no justification in going to the extremes some audiophools felt
obliged to go to in creating special rock solid rigid shelving to park
their turntable on. You just needed a shelf that didn't flex too much
when resting your elbows on it when queuing up the next record or track.

The *only* criticism I have was their decision not to provide a quartz
crystal reference to drive the integrated neon strobe light, relying
instead upon the 50 or 60 Hz PSU frequency. Whilst the PSU frequency
enjoys long term stability that very few quartz crystal references can
match, the short term stability of the PSU frequency leaves a lot to be
desired (such as... well, short term stability!). As a technical
exercise, fixing this one 'annoyance' is a fairly trivial task but it's a
case of finding a "Round Tuit" to embark on this modification that
impedes my perfecting the otherwise perfect turntable. :-(

--
Johnny B Good
  #4 (permalink)  
Old February 3rd 18, 08:47 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
D.M. Procida
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 140
Default Preferred oil for turntable bearing

Johnny B Good wrote:

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 17:46:06 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2018-02-03, D.M. Procida
wrote:
What would you recommend (for an Acoustic Research "The AR Turntable")?


I think I've always put 3-in-1 in my Thorens t/table!


If it's the same type of bearing that's used in the TD125 (a sleeve
bearing suspended on a single steel ball), I suspect that may not have
been the wisest choice.

My reasoning at the time some 40 odd years ago, being that such a slowly
rotating sleeve bearing needed a high viscosity and thick grease like
(but without the disadvantage of grease) lubricant to prevent 'bearing
chatter'.

It's nice to have my 'solution' ratified by no less a manufacturer than
Samsung's Hard disk storage division. :-) Also, the turntable is still
working to perfection to this day. If that AR turntable uses a similar
spindle sleeve bearing, I think I can safely recommend a viscous silicone
oil as a tried and tested lubricant.


I'm not saying you're wrong. However I don't think it's safe to reason
by analogy in such things.

Engineering's not a science (I know that some engineers think it is, but
they're mistaken) but all the same it does rely on quantitive
measurements, analyses and predictions.

"My record player still works well" isn't quite enough.

If you had a hundred record players and also the finest measuring
devices to go with them, your reasoning would be more persuasive.

Daniele
  #5 (permalink)  
Old February 3rd 18, 10:15 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Mike Fleming
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 55
Default Preferred oil for turntable bearing

In article , Johnny B Good
writes:

My reasoning at the time some 40 odd years ago, being that such a slowly
rotating sleeve bearing needed a high viscosity and thick grease like
(but without the disadvantage of grease) lubricant to prevent 'bearing
chatter'. In effect, I'd turned to the "Fluid Dynamic Bearing" solution
pioneered by Samsung some 25 years later in its award winning hard disk
drives to not only silence their drives but also improve the stability of
the platter spindle.


I thought Samsung's hard disc drives spun at a little more than 33rpm
- you do mention the slow rotation so it would appear to be the most
significant factor in your choice.

--
Mike Fleming
  #6 (permalink)  
Old February 4th 18, 02:24 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Johnny B Good
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default Preferred oil for turntable bearing

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 21:32:12 +0000, Huge wrote:

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 18:15:03 GMT, Johnny B Good
wrote:

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 17:46:06 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2018-02-03, D.M. Procida
wrote:
What would you recommend (for an Acoustic Research "The AR
Turntable")?

I think I've always put 3-in-1 in my Thorens t/table!

If it's the same type of bearing that's used in the TD125 (a sleeve
bearing suspended on a single steel ball), I suspect that may not have
been the wisest choice.


Given (i) who's making the comment & (ii) that the turntable is still
working perfectly after 40+ years, I'm entirely happy with my choice.


Well, after trawling the interweb for clues about the use of silicone
oil as a TT spindle lubricant and landing on several fora discussing this
very topic raised by the OP, it would seem that my suspicion is unfounded.

This, unfortunately, leaves the OP non the wiser as to what would be the
ideal lubricant to use since there seems to be no consensus of opinion in
any of the TT forum discussions on this matter. Indeed, I wouldn't be too
surprised if the OP has already visited these fora before resorting, in
desperation rather than hope, to this News Group for advice.

--
Johnny B Good
  #7 (permalink)  
Old February 4th 18, 04:04 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Johnny B Good
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default Preferred oil for turntable bearing

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 21:47:05 +0000, D.M. Procida wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 17:46:06 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2018-02-03, D.M. Procida
wrote:
What would you recommend (for an Acoustic Research "The AR
Turntable")?

I think I've always put 3-in-1 in my Thorens t/table!


If it's the same type of bearing that's used in the TD125 (a sleeve
bearing suspended on a single steel ball), I suspect that may not have
been the wisest choice.

My reasoning at the time some 40 odd years ago, being that such a
slowly
rotating sleeve bearing needed a high viscosity and thick grease like
(but without the disadvantage of grease) lubricant to prevent 'bearing
chatter'.

It's nice to have my 'solution' ratified by no less a manufacturer
than
Samsung's Hard disk storage division. :-) Also, the turntable is still
working to perfection to this day. If that AR turntable uses a similar
spindle sleeve bearing, I think I can safely recommend a viscous
silicone oil as a tried and tested lubricant.


I'm not saying you're wrong. However I don't think it's safe to reason
by analogy in such things.


You make a fair point but 'reasoning by analogy' is a pretty good
starting point just the same.


Engineering's not a science (I know that some engineers think it is, but
they're mistaken) but all the same it does rely on quantitive
measurements, analyses and predictions.


Actually, engineering *is* an exact science. The problems typically
arise in the implementation of 'engineering solutions' due to calculation
errors, 'penny pinching' and poor quality control over materials and
manufacturing tolerances.


"My record player still works well" isn't quite enough.


You appear to be paraphrasing here since that is a phrase neither I nor
Huge ever mentioned. It might seem, at first glance, a close enough
approximation of what we both stated which was effectively, that our
turntables are still working perfectly which is a much stronger
endorsement than 'it still works well'. As opinions go in regard of our
choice of TT spindle bearing lubricant, they both seem to be more than
enough of an endorsement in each case.


If you had a hundred record players and also the finest measuring
devices to go with them, your reasoning would be more persuasive.


Ah, but I don't have a hundred turntables to do such an experiment so I
can't be any more persuasive than stating my own preference and the
reasoning behind it, all of which is of no further help in solving the
OP's question.

--
Johnny B Good
  #8 (permalink)  
Old February 4th 18, 04:13 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
Johnny B Good
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default Preferred oil for turntable bearing

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 23:15:08 +0000, Mike Fleming wrote:

In article , Johnny B Good
writes:

My reasoning at the time some 40 odd years ago, being that such a
slowly
rotating sleeve bearing needed a high viscosity and thick grease like
(but without the disadvantage of grease) lubricant to prevent 'bearing
chatter'. In effect, I'd turned to the "Fluid Dynamic Bearing" solution
pioneered by Samsung some 25 years later in its award winning hard disk
drives to not only silence their drives but also improve the stability
of the platter spindle.


I thought Samsung's hard disc drives spun at a little more than 33rpm -
you do mention the slow rotation so it would appear to be the most
significant factor in your choice.


The significance of Samsung's FDB was that it was a form of the classic
oil lubricated sleeve bearing which was a radical departure from the ball
bearings used previously and then currently by the competition.

Standard 3 1/2 inch hard disk drives spun their platters at 7200 and
5400 rpm with high performance drives using 10200 and 15000 rpm platter
speeds.

The 33.3 (and 45) rpm *was* the significant factor in choosing a high
viscosity silicone oil. The reference to Samsung's FDB (which was taken
up by their competitors a year or two later) was a light hearted throw
away remark (did you not recognise the smiley?).

--
Johnny B Good
  #9 (permalink)  
Old February 4th 18, 09:59 PM posted to uk.rec.audio
Vir Campestris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default Preferred oil for turntable bearing

On 04/02/2018 11:05, Huge wrote:
Hey, "Johnny", are you also "boltar" from the UK car groups? Only,
everything (without exception) he posts is diametrically wrong, too.


Thank you, that confirms my suspicions of Boltar.

Andy
  #10 (permalink)  
Old February 9th 18, 11:37 AM posted to uk.rec.audio
~misfit~[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 98
Default Preferred oil for turntable bearing

Once upon a time on usenet Johnny B Good wrote:
On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 17:46:06 +0000, Huge wrote:

On 2018-02-03, D.M. Procida
wrote:
What would you recommend (for an Acoustic Research "The AR
Turntable")?


I think I've always put 3-in-1 in my Thorens t/table!


If it's the same type of bearing that's used in the TD125 (a sleeve
bearing suspended on a single steel ball), I suspect that may not have
been the wisest choice. When I bought the Fluid Damper kit for my
SME3009 S2 Improved Fixed Headshell tone arm, I sacrificed a few
drops of the silicone oil as turntable spindle lubricant (after
washing out the original lubricant).

My reasoning at the time some 40 odd years ago, being that such a
slowly rotating sleeve bearing needed a high viscosity and thick
grease like (but without the disadvantage of grease) lubricant to
prevent 'bearing chatter'. In effect, I'd turned to the "Fluid
Dynamic Bearing" solution pioneered by Samsung some 25 years later in
its award winning hard disk drives to not only silence their drives
but also improve the stability of the platter spindle.

It's nice to have my 'solution' ratified by no less a manufacturer
than Samsung's Hard disk storage division. :-) Also, the turntable is
still working to perfection to this day. If that AR turntable uses a
similar spindle sleeve bearing, I think I can safely recommend a
viscous silicone oil as a tried and tested lubricant.


It was Seagate.

So you replicated this; http://www.nidec.net/graphics/fdbdwg.gif for your
tutrntable? Because that's a HDD fluid bearing designed for HDDs running at
between 5,900 rpm and 15,000 rpm.

Well done!!!
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)


 




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