"Keith G" wrote in message
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"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
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"Keith G" wrote in message
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"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
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"Keith G" wrote in message
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"Trevor Wilson" wrote
Additionally, if the input is sublimely perfect, any amp which
distorts, will ruin the goodness.
Sublimely perfect input??? Got any?
**Several.
You do?
**Yes.
What are they?
**You're joking, right? The list is too long to mention here.
Oh, sure...
OK, just two or three then - to give us an idea. Only we get to hear all
about this 'crappy amps' and 'perfect inputs' but we *never* get any
examples. The reason is too obvious to be worth a mention......
**I fail to see the point, but I'll grab a couple from my shelf, above my
bench, which I use for test purposes.
* Mary Black - Mission Demonstration disk
* Brahms - Cello Concertos (RCA)
* Chet Atkins - The Essential Chet Atkins
* Neil Diamond - You Don't Bring Me Flowers
* Christine Anu - Christine Anu
Happy now? What purpose did that serve.
Ah.
I thought you were talking about inputs as in *devices*......
(You know - what you get when you flick the 'Input Selector'....???)
Got an amp which *doesn't* distort?? Not at all???
**Several. None of which exhibit any AUDIBLE distortions. More to the
point: Do YOU have any amplifiers which exhibit no audible
distortions, when used with real-life loudspeakers?
None of my amps disort audibly that I or anyone else here can detect.
**Really? Can you provide your measurements to validate that fact?
Wake up dummy - read the words 'I' and 'can detect' again, also try to
get the notion that just a few of us actually *listen* to the music and
don't just watch it on a scope.....
**Now I understand. You KNOW that your amplifiers do not audibly distort,
but you have no way yo prove it. That makes sense.
Certainly it does - if music/voices on my kit didn't sound exactly like I
expect it/them to, I'd get rid.
**So, you have no way to verify what you think it should sound like? How do
you know that your source is accurate?
I have news for you: If your amps do not meet or exceed the parameters I
have outlined, they do, in fact, audibly distort.
Not that I can detect - why do you have a problem grasping this?
**You can't detect their distortions, because you've never measured them.
snip bollockology
restore facts and figures, which you seem to be extremely uncomfortable
in discussing
Frequency response: 20Hz - 20kHz (at, say, 1/3rd full power) +/- 0.1dB,
when operating into a real-world loudspeaker.
Phase error: 20Hz - 20kHz - +/- 5 degrees, when operating into a
real-world
loudspeaker.
Output impedance: Lower than 0.1 Ohm, from 20Hz - 20kHz (BTW: This is
where
many run-of-the-mill SS amps fail)
THD: Less than 0.1% from 20Hz - 20kHz, at (say) 1/3rd maximum output.
IMD: Less than 0.1%.
Interesting/useful to a manufacturer or designer, of little importance to
the end user.
**Nope. Absolutely critical to the end user. There is no point building a
system around a faulty component.
Mention 'distortion' and 'flat response' to one or two people
I know in the racket and they'll laugh their arses off!
**Sure. There's stupid people in the racket. I'm in the racket (and have
been for 35 years) and consider those parameters to be very important. In
fact, unless a product meets those basic criteria, there's little point
considering it at all, since it will affect the sound of any decent system
negatively.
(What,
do you think we sit here listening to 'audible distortion'...??? :-)
**Yes.
Well, I reckon Swim's a better judge than yew, me auld china (played
clart in the presence of Queenie at the RCM and a colleague of Tony
Michaelson for 3 years or so) so it'll be alright if I go along with her
opinion and discard yours, will it?
**I have no idea who "Swim" is. So, no.
Swim = SWMBO
I put a clart piece on she says it's OK. I put it on a valve amp she says
it's 'very real'. I put it on the triode amp she says it's the 'most real
yet' - who am I to argue???
**I'm assuming that since her sensibilities coincide with yours, you won't.
There's much tub-thumping about 'high fidelity' and 'straight wires
with gain' - like one type of amp absolutely fits these criteria and
another type don't.
**Few amplifiers actually fit that description, WHEN DRIVING REAL
LOUDSPEAKERS.
No need to shout, me auld shagger...
**There is, sometimes.
No, really, there isn't....
**Sure there is. You still seem to be hung up on:
Valves = Good
Transistors = Bad
Hmmm...
This is faulty logic.
You're not kidding....
There are some very fine valve amplifiers. There are some really bad valve
amplifiers. There are some very fine SS amplifiers and some really bad SS
amplifiers. Just because an amplifier uses a particular active devices,
does not automatically convey a measure of goodness (or badness) on that
product. However, at a given price level (assuming good design), a SS
amplifier will always outperform a valve amp.
I'm not sure what this is all leading up to. First off, I love all these
'qualified' statements we keep seeing like 'crappy valve amps' and 'at a
given price level', 'good design' etc. etc.
Next, I'm not nearly as convinced as you seem to be that we're tit-deep in
'bad' amplifiers. Call it a sheltered upbringing if you like, but I'm not
sure I've ever heard a *bad* amplifier....???
**I have. Lots of them. Including the afore-mentioned Audiolab 8000A.
(Are bad amps like fleas? - The more you seek, the more you find and the
more you find, the happier you be??)
**In my business I get to see *a lot* of amplifiers. I usually listen to the
ones which demonstrate overtly interesting results on the test equipment.
The most recent one being a Linn Intek. Quite a good amp, BTW.
Then you seem to be very comfortable presuming that I would choose *any*
valve amp over *any* ss amp, come what may?? Wrong, asitappens, but I've
yet to hear an ss amp I could live with other than during the single
week's hot weather we get in the UK...
**[GAG] Hot weather? You have no idea what hot weather really is. Trust me
on this. As it happens, the amp I use is specifically designed to operate at
an internal temperature of 60oC, regardless of the outside temperature
(provided the outside temperature does not exceed 60oC, of course).
As for your selection of an SS amp, I suggest you use similar criteria to
that which would affect your choice of valve amps. Here's a few criteria you
could consider:
* Low Global NFB.
* No current limiters (or current limiters which operate in a benign
fashion).
* A good, big power supply, relative to power output. IOW: A nice, heavy,
low power output amp.
* Moderately high Class A operation.
* Collectors coupled to loads.
The afore-mentioned Linn Intek comes close to these parameters.
(First thing to go with ss is the 'soundstage', you see.....)
**Not necessarily. Soundstage is affected by several things. All of which
can be addressed quite easily.
Quite a few manage it with dummy loads and sine waves, however.
(Not to mention whatever input or amp is used, the speakers and the
room will have the final say, in any case....)
**Strawman, duly noted.
Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....
**Strawman, duly noted.
Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....
**Your further strawman is duly noted.
Your further Geekboy 'Usenet' terminology duly noted.....
(You been talking to the other opinionated, non-UK loudmouth that
hangs around in here by any chance?)
**That depends.
Thought as much....
What does that tell you? They got no place in this ng for a start?
**Not at all. I have stated, ad nauseum, that a REALLY GOOD valve
amplifier
You're shouting again - do try to hold it together, there's a good
chap.
**Clearly I need to shout. You don't seem to pay attention.
Won't get (or keep) my attention by shouting muchacho, saying something
interesting is all it takes - try it.....
**I try to. You just ignore the truth. Just try to follow my logic, once
in awhile.
You have no logic, you have only prejudice and dogma....
**Nope. I have logic and experience on my side.
Who's discussing cheap, crappy valve amps?
**The original poster.
Oh ah? And where do you see that, then? Nothing in there that I could
see - he mentions a valve amp (preferably DIY) and that he's got a
budget system - make the classic mistake of confusing the two different
statements, did we??? ;-)
**Nope. A DIY'er is, by definition, after a bargain (or an education).
Further, it is safe to assume that his choice of speakers suggests that
he is on a tight budget. If I am wrong, I will be happy to retract my
assumption.
Absolute ******** - a very unsafe presumption at best...
- That's your usual (what's that
term - 'strawman'?) little injection into the proceedings isn't it??
**Nope.
Not nope - yep...
**I could have said: "Non-sequitur".
I could have said "Non est ad astra mollis e terris via
".....
**You could, but I wouldn't have a clue about what you are saying.
Or that
can subscribe here if they perform some sort of 'confession' or make
an obeisance to their (wiser) betters?
**Education never hurt anyone.
Agreed - try some.
**What would you suggest? Vaccuum tube theory? Nope. I can get by.
Start with 'Ubu Roi' by Alfred Jarry (1896) - it's an allegory of
Digital Theory predating the concept by nearly a hundred years. You
should find it interesting.....
**Why? I am not discussing digital. I am discussing signals in the
analogue domain.
That too...
Ever see a valvie give an ss type a hard
time because he doesn't like/use valves?
**Every single day.
Must be hell....
**It is distressing being surrounded by fools.
There there, never mind - if you don't look straight at them, they'll
all go away soon....
Again with the 'cheap, crappy valve amps' - you really don't have an
argument do you? Why not just say *broken* amps and be done with it???
**Because many people imagine that because it has tubes, it must be
good.
???
It is very important to show that this is not necessarily the case.
It is?? To whom??
**To the poor fools who have been deluded by the marketers of shoddy
valve amps, masquerading as decent products.
You must have 'em on every street corner.....
**Pretty much.
(Paid the full ML 'Red Rose' price for a chinky amp, did they?)
**Worse. Some have actually paid real Dollars for Audio Note amps.
A valve amp may be good, or it may be bad.
Stressy, isn't it...??? :-)
**Not at all. A quick set of measurements will soon sort out the good and
the bad.
Stoppit, please - most of us just chuck the ****ing music on and
listen to it. We ain't 'measuring' it or giving it marks out of ten!
We play it the best way we like to hear it - is that really too hard
to understand??
**Not at all.
Note to Jim Lesurf - if I don't see you pulling this clown up for not
snipping soon, I'll start to feel a bit 'singled out' - know wot I mean?
He ain't snipping, I ain't snipping - we've done all this before.....
The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you really got nowhere
to go, have you?
**Now you're engaing in projection. I suggest you do some homework,
before attempting to tar me with a brush you tar others with.
It can't be vinyl, it can't be valves, it can't be MP3s, it can't
be 24/92 or 24/192, it can't be AM, it can't be DAB, it can't be 78s,
it can't be cassettes, it can't be mono etc. etc. etc..
**And I have never said anything of the kind. Except AM (though I did
build a superb, all valve, 4 stage TRF, with a triode infinite
impedance detector, when I was 16.).
I'll say it again: The trouble with you *extreme* CD/SS types is you
really got nowhere to go, have you?
**More projection. Do your homework, before shooting your mouth off.
Here's where you have to prove that I have ever defended 16/44 digital as
being the "ultimate" signal source.
I don't have to prove diddly dick.....
**When you accuse me of something, you need to provide some evidence.
For the record:
Records are not digital....
* I use MP3 in my car. It is entirely adequate, in that environment.
* I stopped using cassettes a couple of years ago. (I used to own a
Nakamichi 100ZXL)
* I listen to AM radio, every Saturday morning. It's a local show called
The Weekend Woodies. http://www.abc.net.au/sydney/photogalleries/woodies/
* I have always felt that 16/44 digital is inadequate to compete with the
VERY BEST (sorry to shout) vinyl available.
First thing you've said that made any sense....
* I have always detested 78s.
* I like 15ips reel to reel.
**Means nothing to me. There are some crappy SS amps on the market.
Really?
**Yes, really.
That's news to me - can you name one current, freely available (in
the UK, of course) make and model??
**One of the most ordinary, I encounter reasonably frequently is the
Audiolab 8000A. It can deliver gobs of current, but sounds terrible. As
for current models, just pick up any sub-1,000 Squid surround sound
receiver. They all sound horrible. Any brand.
Ooh, that's going to ruffle the feathers of someone here.....
**I don't give a ****. It is a horrible sounding amplifier (yes, I've
compared it blind).
I've never heard one - all I've ever heard is that they are supposed to be
good???
**The Audiolab 8000A does SOME really good things:
* It is quite powerful and powerful sounding, in a compact package.
* It copes with difficult loads quite well.
* It delivers a good set of specifications.
Kills me the way you
'anti****s' try to fit this group up with your own wacky little
prejudices and then try to wipe it off on those of us who have
declared time and time again we don't give a rat's arse what you or
anyone else prefers or uses....
Still, if it makes you happy.....???
**Nothing makes me happy. I'm a grump.
Not as grumpy as me - I've got the sodding 'flu and haven't had a wink
of sleep all night......
**There are two Aussie inventions you should (have) tried. It is too late
now, as you need to use them at the first signs.
Tamiflu and Relenza. I find them to be remarkably effective (and
expensive).
We have Lemsip in the UK.....
(Says it all really.... :-)
**We have Lemsip here too. It's useless. Tamiflu and Relenza are
prescription drugs. They're useful. I've found Relenza shortens the duration
of a cold by about 2 days and reduces it's intensity somewhat. At AUS$60.00,
it ain't cheap, but those of us who are self-employed, it is well worth it.
No side effects.
(Might get mi second Chinky valve amp today tho' - that'll cheer me up!
:-)
**You deserve it. If you must, you really should try to lay your hands on
a second hand ARC VT100. Superb amp.
Sounds a little out of my price range.....
**If you want quality..... A Classic 60 and 120 are both nice products too.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au