"Andre Jute" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've just had a couple of enlightening but also depressing experiences.


snip bike stuff - not interested unless 350 single, 500 twin, 750 triple or
1,000cc four in line...



4. There's a lesson for tubies in this bike saga. The Chinese tube amps
that Keith G has been experiencing are clearly "container-load" types.
The basic ones are pretty good already -- any 300B amp is pretty good,
and some of the hysterical criticism of Keith's attitude and amps
started from an unrealistically high barrier because there is no point
whatsoever in judging a 300 buck amp by the standards of a 3000 buck
amp; the outcome is always an exercise in pure snobbery. Any change to
the basic specification costs proportionately more than the additional
quality of sound obtained. This is economic marginality at work, first
slowly and then faster and faster to the point where a big deal of
money has to be spent for a minuscule improvement in quality. A point
soon arrives where it becomes more attractive for the amp maker and
distributor to spend the money on cosmetics, which can give a big boost
in perceived value for relatively small expenditure (the reverse of the
marginality that applies to true quality). That barrier may already
have been reached in the Chinese amps.


"Bid me discourse, I will enchant thine ear"....?? ;-)

Jutius, I always enjoy your comments about the Chinese amps and agree with
just about all you say about them, but I would like to make the following
observation - the only truly hysterical criticism of these amps in general
(and SETs in particular) has come from our antipodean associates, otherwise
it has been more a reaction to the amps being 'valvular' than anything much
to do with their point of origin or price. (The Ostile Ozzies may well have
seen more duff stuff from the Chinese than we have, which would go some way
to explain their attitudes...??)

For me it was a simple dilemma - I wanted to hear a 300B SET (any 300B SET)
and at 300 quid a pop I am getting to do this (twice over), while at 3,000
quid a poke I would only be reading about them! (I really don't see myself
travelling great distances for a quick snatch of somebody else's silly
expensive amp or speakers, as has recently been suggested here - for one
thing, listening to kit in an environment other than one's own is a waste of
time, IMO....)

I have liked these amps from the off and they compare very well with my own
2A3 SET, which is reputed to have a fine sound (that's *help create* a fine
sound, for the pedants). I have never claimed them to be particularly any
good (how could I, I've heard no SET amps other than my own) - only very
good value for money! All I can say if a 'posh' amp really is that much
better, then I look forward to the day when I do get to hear one...!! But,
until that day, I'm sold on the cheap Chinese stuff!

Interestingly (lovely word - allows one to change the subject to anything
one wants), my parallel/contrast to the (perfectly reasonable, IMO) idea
that it would take a vast hike in spending on a SET to achieve only a modest
improvement in the sound quality is actually the other half of the *killer
combination* - the Firewood Horn speakers.

I had built several pairs of 'lesser' speakers (size, not sound quality)
when I built a pair of Jerichos and initially fitted the Fostex FE206E
fullrange (that's *widerange* for the pedants, once again) drivers. All who
came here to hear them raved about them, with one exception - the most
useful visit (by far) was from Serge who very politely said they were crap!
Actually, he didn't say that at all - he said they were 'crunchy' which was
effectively the same thing, AFAIAC....!!

Once this was pointed out I became quite aware of it and I briefly
considered correction network circuits (to flatten the FR curves) but went
instead for a pair of more expensive drivers. (I want components to work
together of their own free will, not be *forced* to work!) Anyway -
*Kaboom!!* the improvement was/is colossal - for approximately 30% more
money!!

Now, I am awaiting delivery of these little buggers:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...e=STRK:MEWN:IT

And anticipate that, for a lot more money (approx 250%) the resultant sound
will be even better, due probably to the special construction of these units
where the HF 'overspill' is effectively prevented from entering the pressure
chamber. Pro-rata better? - I'm not sure, but they will represent something
of an ultimate for me and I am really looking forward to hearing them.

*IF* the difference is a) positive and b) profound, I might then seek out a
'posh SET' to see if there is a similar hike in sound quality, but my guess
is there won't be - I firmly believe the amp merely needs to be *not broken*
to work in most setups, but that the speaker is all.

IMO a modest amp and super speakers will beat the 'other way round'
arrangement (the way most people go) every time! (The other major influence
on sound quality being the cartridge, naturally....!! ;-)



Higher up the scale, I have to
wonder if the Chinese will not decide to leave the expensive niche
markets, which have bigger unit profits but rather infrequently, to the
dumb roundeyes. But I suspect that the Chinese are so vibrant and so
hungry that somewhere some Chinese is already plotting to compete at
the top of the market. Since the major labour cost in an amp (given
mass-chassis production -- a huge cost in singletons and small runs) is
winding the transformer, and the rest of the parts are in any event
expensive relative to the wholesale price at the factory gate, I just
don't see them undercutting the top Western tube amp makers by huge
margins. It is an open question about how big their undercut *must* be
before on a luxury item people will buy the cheap no-name Chinese item
rather than the big-name Western item but I suspect a one-third
undercut won't do the business, that they will have to sell at half or
less of CJ or ARC prices -- for a similar quality of goods and warranty
and service. That won't leave too big a bowl of rice. Conclusion:
Better enjoy the Chinese amps you can get now because, far from
improving, they might be cheapened in the sound (while at the same time
being prettified) to increase margins.


As to the question of the reduction of 'price undercut' needed to allow
Chinese products to compete, I would say that, taking the one make Shanling
as a guideline, it's already started!! Economy of Scale in production costs
and the comparatively cheap labour will ensure the Chinese product will
remain viable for long enough to overcome remaining prejudices until theie
products can equla or supercede domestic Western product, much like the Jap
motorbikes from the 60s on.

Mind you, given that if you bang a stake into the ground and the Chinese
Peoples start to walk past it, it will be *never-ending* and factor in that
the Chinese Economy is growing fastest/biggest in the world, for us manky
Brits to believe the Chinese will even give a **** about the West in (say) 5
years time is a symptom of the arrogance that is reducing us to the level of
3rd rate banana republic!!