On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 23:11:32 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 13:49:24 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:
"Don Pearce" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 12:56:28 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:
You should also know that the full-range driver is in fact a myth.
They
are all dual cone devices with some sort of mechanical crossover
Hi Don - yes, the majority are as above, but I'm talking single cone
here.
I would also disagree with Don's statement, especially if you take the
umpteen million single cone/FR drivers that are used worldwide in
radios,
TVs, cars &c. - I certainly have single cone Visaton drivers on the go
here
myself...
Well, those umpteen million single cone drivers in TVs and radios are
anything but FR - they pretty much universally have no bass and no
treble.
Ah, but they *can* have - ask yer mate Dr Bose or any 'horn' cabinet
builder....!! ;-)
No, they can't. Dr. Bose's reputation goes before him as a marketeer,
but his speakers are universally derided among the cognoscenti (and
they do sound genuinely horrible). And of course horns make no
difference to treble, and can only increase bass down to the
wavelength limit of the horn's dimensions - I've never come across one
with the twenty feet or so you would need to get true bass out of
them, although I have seen pictures of builds by the certifiable.
I'm wary of terms like 'true bass' given that, at best, 'hifi' is a
*depiction* of 'real sound' - but, surely it doesn't need to be repeated
that nobody in his right mind would seek 'true bass' from horns or bookshelf
speakers....???
It does sound a lot nicer, though. And it certainly doesn't sound like
"a lot of bass". And why do you think that nobody in his right mind
would seek true bass from *any* speaker? It is an entirely reasonable
thing to seek.
Which Visatons do you have again? I've just looked at their web site,
and everything I can find has a separate treble unit of one sort or
another in the middle of the bass cone.
FRS8s in the Needles and B200s back in their boxes....
http://www.impactaudio.co.uk/speaker...b6ddb0ba26b286
Let's put this 'frequency extremes' thing to bed once and for all - there
is
no shortage of high frequency with just about all the drivers I have
used/considered and which quote a top end of 18K or better and up to 30K
in
some instances. Bass is no worse than 'ordinary' speakers and is dependent
on cabinet/room science, as you know better than I.....
Didn't we measure your speakers and find them rolling off severely
above 10kHz?
Read the numbers:
Lowther PM6C (30 - 20k)
Lowther EX3 (30 - 22k)
Fostex FE103E (fs - 22k)
Visaton B200 (fu - 18k)
Visaton FRS8-8 (80 - 20k)
None of the drivers I currently use quote a top end anything like as low as
10k. Consequently, I take all these 'readings/measurements' and various
other figures with a pinch of salt - it what they *sound* like (overall) to
me that counts...
I've read the numbers - and like you, I'm unimpressed by them. As you
say, what they sound like matters much more and for me a real,
dedicated tweeter produces a much cleaner, pleasanter sound that a
single FR unit.
As for bass, we also found that there was nothing below
about 60Hz - which makes total sense for the dimensions you have. I
have a tiny pair of bookshelves in front f me (KEF Cresta 10) which do
at least as well, probably rather better. Top end of course - no
comparison.
You are forgetting that I've had various examples of the following makes of
speakers he
KEF
Tannoy
Wharfedale
Quad
Dynaudio
Ruark
JM-Labs
B&W
Jamo (Concert 8s)
Rogers
plus probably others I can't recall...??
Yup, some good names there.
See again:
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/show/LS35a.JPG
for an example of a speaker with 'no frequency extremes' which would
appear
to benefit from the use of a subwoofer in *no different way* to many
(maybe
most) FR designs - *if* you need yer trousers flapped...!!
The LS35a was designed for a purpose, and it fitted that very well. It
was for monitoring BBC programme material. Extremes of bass and treble
formed no part of the BBC output, so didn't need monitoring. Sure
people adopted them for home listening, at which point the
shortcomings started revealing themselves, so subwoofers got added.
I've not had anything like as much exposure to subs - all I can say is I've
never yet had one here that I didn't switch off after a few minutes...
Nor had I until I bit the bullet and built my own. Now I really can't
tell it is on until I turn it off IYSWIM.
One visitor here, on hearing my Pinkies...
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/busc.../buschorns.htm
"Whoah! They've got more bass than my AEs...!!"
(The pinkies have 4" FR drivers and the AEs are/were 3-way floorstanding
speakers with 165mm bass units - EVO 3s??)
Yup, and we both know what that is all about. It is why those really
cheap home cinema kits can have subwoofers that go no lower than 100Hz
- make it boom a bit and it sounds like bass - until you hear the real
thing, that is. You really do need to think some more about that
subwoofer, you know ;-)
See above - if it were not for the plethora of organ music I have stacked
here, waiting for serious attention, I wouldn't entertain the idea for a
moment. I have been fighting *too much bass* in my very small room for a
while now, but any time I need my trousers flapped I'd only have to drag my
Paladins the length of the house....
You don't get "too much bass" with a good sub. The system may even
sound a little lighter in bass, because you have the opportunity to
tune out the upper-bass hump that is currently propping up the
illusion of bass.
d
--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com