JBorg, Jr. wrote:
JimC wrote:

JBorg, Jr. wrote:

JimC wrote:

snip



It's really rather simple, Georgie. - Those of us who are not within
your black magic-subjectivism cult enjoy listening to recorded music
because we enjoy hearing the music as it was composed and/or
performed. [...]

What does black magic-subjectivism cult imply, Mr. Cate?
What does it signify? You seems bitter on something about
high-end audio in general.



A more helpful line of questions would have been, what does Middius
mean by the term "borg," "normals", "Kroogism," etc.; and why has he
been spending all that time, year after year, attacking those who
disagree with him on this ng? "Black magic-subjectivism" is the
philosopy Mr. Middius adheres to and promotes. It is characterized by
personal attacks on those who introduce logic into discussions of
audio matters, and in particular, those who have some knowldge of the
relevant principles of physics.




Okey, so it's about exposing the tedious propaganda that Arny K.
and his ilk demonstrate in audio groups.



The purpose of a "high-fidelity" audio system is to
reproduce Beethoven's works more nearly as Beethoven intended them
to be performed, or to hear the Rolling Stones in a manner that
reproduces their concerts more nearly as they were performed (more
nearly than a small table radio, for example). [...]

Mr. Cate, how does Mr. Beethoven and The Rolling Stone intended their
music to be heard when played in the listening room in our home?

So that a cello (violin, organ, drums, piano) would, in general, have
the characteristics of the particular instrument, etc. Not perfectly,
not with the same acoustics heard in the hall itself, but with greater
accuracy, for example, than a small table radio.


Is there a manifest enumerating all the specific list of requirement
where we can obtain these information so that we can listen to
Mr. Beethoven and the Rolling Stone precisely and correctly as
they intended them to be heard when performed inside our home ?


The point I was making (which I suspect you knew full well in the
first place) was that listening to music in on a system capable of
reproducing the music with greater fidelity to the performance
(greater "accuracy") is, for most audiophiles, more satisfying and
enjoyable than listening to the same music reproduced by a system
with minimal accuracy, e.g., a small table radio. In other words,
greater "accuracy" generally provides a more satisfying listening
experience. YOUR interjection of the suggestion that I somehow expect
or require that we listen to Beethoven, or the RSs or whoever,
"precisely and correctly as they intended to be heard" is, of course,
your own invention. - I never said or implied such a thing. - [...]



What you said then was unclear to me. You stated that:


***
" Those of us ... enjoy listening to recorded music because we
enjoy hearing the music as it was composed and/or performed."

" The purpose of a "high-fidelity" audio system is to reproduce
Beethoven's works more nearly as Beethoven intended them to
be performed..."

***


Is it my invention then to claim that you implied that we listen as it
was composed and/or performed by whoever in the listening room
inside our home ?

No, it was your invention to imply that I suggested that we need to
have an exact reproduction in our homes of the original performance. -
You stated:

.....the specific list of requirement
where we can obtain these information so that we can listen to
Mr. Beethoven and the Rolling Stone PRECISELY and CORRECTLY as
THEY INTENDED them to be heard WHEN PERFORMED INSIDE OUR HOME.

By posting an exaggerated caricature of my response (to the effect that
I expect the actual performance to be reproduced in our home PRECISELY
as Beethoven intended it to be heard IN OUR HOME), you mock and dismiss
out of hand the underlying meaning of my note. In other words, you
don't want to discuss the underlying intent of my note. - Rather, you
want to pick it apart.



How did Beethoven intended his composition to be performed ?


In general, he intended it to be performed as indicated in his scores.
With cellos, violins, horns, bass drums, etc., played at appropriate
times in the manner indicated in the score. Obviously, one can always
question details of particular stanzas (and I never used the terms
"precisely" or "exactly,"). In general, however, his music is intended
to be performed in the style of the Classical period, occurring prior to
the Romantic period.

How should conductor determine Beethoven's intention when
performing his composition ?

By obtaining an extensive music education in which he becomes familiar
with music from the various periods, with Beethoven's various works and
style, with the classical period in particular. By interpreting
Beethoven's score for the particular piece in light of all the above.


How should sound recording engineer determine Beethoven's
intention when reproducing his works ?

By having a general knowledge of classical music, as indicated above.


What would be your prescribe designation when determining
"accuracy" in these case ?


What the hell does this sentence mean? Is it intended to be in English?


And I'm
well aware that there are limits to realistic reproduction of an
orchestra or rock group in the home. My point was that most of us
generally derive greater pleasure from listening to good music
reproduced with accuracy (higher fidelity to the original
performance) than we do with less accurate reproduction, e.g.,
listening to the same music reproduced by a small table radio.



Higher fidelity ? As in higher fidelity than Beethoven intended
his composition to be performed ?

Nope. As in the fact that most audiophiles listen to music reproduced by
a system that reproduces recorded music with higher fidelity than a
small table radio.

What would be your prescribe designation when determining
"accuracy" in this case ?

Again, write your questions in english and I'll try to answer them.




It's because our listening pleasure derives from the music itself,
George, not from distortion or manipulation of the music caused by our
equipment.


Mr. Cate, are you hinting that audiophiles who listen to music
through their vinyl records derives listening pleasure from the
distortion and manipulation by their equipment, and not from the
music itself ?


Nope. I'm just saying that, in general, accuracy is in fact a useful
and desirable quality in audio, and that, in general, it results in a
more satisfying and enjoyable listening experience.


Ok.



snip

Jim

Incidentally Mr. Borg, do you disagree with my contention that
Geroge's purpose for posting his original note related to a point he
was trying to make and a philosphy he was tring to push rather than
intellectual curiosity, for example, or a desire on his part to learn
from contributors with various viewpoints?

Jim




To agree, or disagree -- that is the question.


I shall place my answer on hold, Mr. Cate, because a missing
part of my response will be build on the answer you provide to
my questions above.


What do my answers to your questions (all intended to pick apart my
original note), have to do with your answering this question?

The really unfortunate conclusion of the matter, Mr. Borg, is that
"normals"??? like you and Mr. Middius aren't willing to acknowledge
that the enjoyment of great music available to all of us today is to a
large extent made possible by the work of engineers and scientists
(borgs?) who over the years worked to design and produce audio equipment
capable of recording and accurately reproducing great music. - Instead
of being thankful for the beautiful music available to them through the
dedicated work of the "borgs", the subjectivists ("normals"??) spit in
their face.

Jim