JimC wrote:
JBorg, Jr. wrote:
JimC wrote:
JBorg, Jr. wrote:
JimC wrote:

snip




The purpose of a "high-fidelity" audio system is to
reproduce Beethoven's works more nearly as Beethoven intended them to
be performed, or to hear the Rolling Stones in a manner that
reproduces their concerts more nearly as they were performed (more
nearly than a small table radio, for example). [...]

Mr. Cate, how does Mr. Beethoven and The Rolling Stone intended
their music to be heard when played in the listening room in our
home?


So that a cello (violin, organ, drums, piano) would, in general, have
the characteristics of the particular instrument, etc. Not perfectly,
not with the same acoustics heard in the hall itself, but with greater
accuracy, for example, than a small table radio.




In general ? And not perfectly !

Facts only please, Mr. Cate, with verifiable evidence confirmed with
firsthand testimony supported with proof and genuine documents,
free of your opinion and reference to small table radios.




Is there a manifest enumerating all the specific list of
requirement where we can obtain these information so that we can
listen to Mr. Beethoven and the Rolling Stone precisely and correctly
as
they intended them to be heard when performed inside our home ?

The point I was making (which I suspect you knew full well in the
first place) was that listening to music in on a system capable of
reproducing the music with greater fidelity to the performance
(greater "accuracy") is, for most audiophiles, more satisfying and
enjoyable than listening to the same music reproduced by a system
with minimal accuracy, e.g., a small table radio. In other words,
greater "accuracy" generally provides a more satisfying listening
experience. YOUR interjection of the suggestion that I somehow
expect or require that we listen to Beethoven, or the RSs or
whoever, "precisely and correctly as they intended to be heard" is,
of course, your own invention. - I never said or implied such a
thing. - [...]

What you said then was unclear to me. You stated that:

***
" Those of us ... enjoy listening to recorded music because we
enjoy hearing the music as it was composed and/or performed."

" The purpose of a "high-fidelity" audio system is to reproduce
Beethoven's works more nearly as Beethoven intended them to
be performed..."

***
Is it my invention then to claim that you implied that we listen as
it was composed and/or performed by whoever in the listening room
inside our home ?


No, it was your invention to imply that I suggested that we need to
have an exact reproduction in our homes of the original performance. -
You stated:

.....the specific list of requirement
where we can obtain these information so that we can listen to
Mr. Beethoven and the Rolling Stone PRECISELY and CORRECTLY as THEY
INTENDED them to be heard WHEN PERFORMED INSIDE OUR HOME.


But you said "as intended." What did you mean by "as intended",
Mr. Cate?

Did you mean as intended, but not when we're listening (at home or
elsewhere?).


By posting an exaggerated caricature of my response (to the effect
that I expect the actual performance to be reproduced in our home
PRECISELY as Beethoven intended it to be heard IN OUR HOME), you mock and
dismiss out of hand the underlying meaning of my note.

It is you who's making nebulous and fuzzy underlying meaning to
your notes.


In other words, you don't want to discuss the underlying intent of my
note. - Rather, you want to pick it apart.

I am trying to understand you notes, Mr. Cate.


How did Beethoven intended his composition to be performed ?


In general, he intended it to be performed as indicated in his scores.
With cellos, violins, horns, bass drums, etc., played at appropriate
times in the manner indicated in the score. Obviously, one can always
question details of particular stanzas (and I never used the terms
"precisely" or "exactly,"). In general, however, his music is
intended to be performed in the style of the Classical period,
occurring prior to the Romantic period.


In general again? That's rather generous of you Mr. Cate.



How should conductor determine Beethoven's intention when
performing his composition ?

By obtaining an extensive music education [...]


[Hmm, Arny ?]


in which he becomes familiar
with music from the various periods, with Beethoven's various works
and style, with the classical period in particular. By interpreting
Beethoven's score for the particular piece in light of all the above.


How should sound recording engineer determine Beethoven's
intention when reproducing his works ?

By having a general knowledge of classical music, as indicated above.


[Hmm, Arny?]

What would be your prescribe designation when determining
"accuracy" in these case ?


What the hell does this sentence mean? Is it intended to be in
English?


What I meant was how would you know that the intended rendition
of Beethoven's composition by the conductor and recording engineer
met the required accuracy as approved by Mr. Beethoven himself,
Mr. Cate?




And I'm
well aware that there are limits to realistic reproduction of an
orchestra or rock group in the home. My point was that most of us
generally derive greater pleasure from listening to good music
reproduced with accuracy (higher fidelity to the original
performance) than we do with less accurate reproduction, e.g.,
listening to the same music reproduced by a small table radio.

Higher fidelity ? As in higher fidelity than Beethoven intended
his composition to be performed ?

Nope. As in the fact that most audiophiles listen to music reproduced
by a system that reproduces recorded music with higher fidelity than a
small table radio.


OK

What would be your prescribe designation when determining
"accuracy" in this case ?

Again, write your questions in english and I'll try to answer them.


snip


Incidentally Mr. Borg, do you disagree with my contention that
Geroge's purpose for posting his original note related to a point he
was trying to make and a philosphy he was tring to push rather than
intellectual curiosity, for example, or a desire on his part to
learn from contributors with various viewpoints?

Jim

To agree, or disagree -- that is the question.

I shall place my answer on hold, Mr. Cate, because a missing
part of my response will be build on the answer you provide to
my questions above.

What do my answers to your questions (all intended to pick apart my
original note), have to do with your answering this question?



Because your question regards contention of whether the original intent
of the post in this thread concern the philosophy that, as you have said,
characterized by personal attacks to those who introduce logic into
audio discussions.


The paragraph below demonstrate "one" example.


The really unfortunate conclusion of the matter, Mr. Borg, is that
"normals"??? like you and Mr. Middius aren't willing to acknowledge
that the enjoyment of great music available to all of us today is to a
large extent made possible by the work of engineers and scientists
(borgs?) who over the years worked to design and produce audio
equipment capable of recording and accurately reproducing great
music. - Instead of being thankful for the beautiful music available
to them through the dedicated work of the "borgs", the subjectivists
("normals"??) spit in their face.

Jim