David Looser wrote:
"Rob" wrote in message
snip

As far as chartered engineer status is concerned I'm not aware of any
awarding body that doesn't demand both relevant qualifications and proven
experience before conferring the title.

Blimey David, this isn't difficult. Have a look at p.12 of the C.Eng
competency standard. These are examples of non-formal qualifications
that can count in lieu of accredited degrees: Writing a technical
report, based upon their experience, and demonstrating their knowledge
and understanding of engineering principles; Following an assessed
work-based learning
programme.

If I've got this right the Engineering Council confers the 'Chartered'
bit, and accredits (that is, gives full exemption from written quals),
or recognises (partial exemption) awards. Then there's an element of
practical experience that EC UK prescribes. I'm applying this principle
from my experience - RTPI, CIH, RICS.



Where I work 3 of the senior academic staff in our team of 9 have no
relevant first degree, and no higher degree. One of them published 8 peer
reviewed papers last year. The other is leading consultant (or at least
was, apparently). The other is normal, er, like me (apart from the senior
bit, obviously).


I am surprised. In my experience the world of academia is even more keen on
formal qualifications than industry is. Senior academics usually have
doctorates. But not all disciplines are equal and I don't know which
discipline you are talking about.


I'd have thought in natural sciences you're right. I work in applied
social science in a new university. Maybe a quarter have PhDs. None of
our academic professors have a PhD. I have my own opinion about this
that I suspect is scarily close to your own :-;


What I'm trying to get across is that while the qualification is
necessary, it isn't always, or even often, sufficient.

I never suggested it was. For anyone starting out on a career in engineering
the formal qualifications are merely the start.

It'd be nice if you could wash yourself of 'necessary'. When I left school
I worked in a surveying office. After a while they let me loose and I was
out doing surveys, which were then signed off by a chartered surveyor
who'd never seen the building/land.

In other words you were an apprentice (even if you weren't called that);
that was the way things used to be done in many trades, though not in the
professions where having formal education first has long been considered
necessary.

Ah, OK - we can differ on what counts as a profession. I assume
therefore you don't count surveying, law, teaching, planning and
accountancy as 'professions'. But you do count flying. And architecture.
This isn't working, is it?

I'd take it you spit at the mention of 'professional footballer' :-)

Of course, having a qualification helps. But it doesn't necessarily mean
you can do whatever you're qualified to do any better than someone with
lesser or no qualifications.

Perhaps in theory. Science and engineering is built on the considerable body
of knowledge created by those who went before. So unless you want every
practitioner to have to re-invent the discipline for himself it is necessary
to do a considerable amount of book-work before you can even begin to gain
experience, and this is far more easily done in an institution where
teaching and guidance are on offer than trying to do the whole thing
unaided.


Wouldn't argue with that.

We have processes called APL/APCL/APEL - accreditation for prior
certificated/experiential learning. It's commonly accepted that in a lot
of cases it's actually easier (and in some cases cheaper) to do the
qualification than jump through the accreditation hoops. But I'd stress
that I think this system is flawed - it forces a huge measure of
compliance with institutional practice.


And personally I'm glad that my local hospital only employs doctors who have
actually been taught medicine and examined on their knowledge and I would
still far rather travel in a plane piloted by someone who had actually been
trained to fly it.


Yes, of course. Back to 'washing' - it doesn't make them good doctors or
pilots.

Rob