Placing Project Debut III turntable on adjustable cones

Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent

someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?

Cheers

Max

On 16 Jan 2007 17:03:42 -0800, "max graff" wrote:

Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent

someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?


Yup. Start drinking decaf and take up gardening. It is all starting to
get to you - and not in a good way.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com

max graff wrote:
Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent

someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?

Cheers

Max


I think this is another case of "different, so must be better". By that
I mean that changing the soft rubber feet for hard cones will couple the
turntable to the support, as there's no other form of isolation. This
will make the turntable behave differently to acoustic feedback, it will
make it more susceptible to feedback, as whatever the support is will be
storing energy, and passing it directly to the turntable which is now
intimately coupled to it. Previously, with the soft rubber feet, only
acoustic energy falling directly on the turntable (including of course
the cover) could give rise to feedback.

Consequently, the turntable system will now sound different, and in this
peculiar world many of us inhabit, any change is seen as an improvement.
If the turntable had genuinely sounded better with hard cones rather
than rubber feet, don't you suppose the manufacturer might have supplied
it that way?

S.

Serge Auckland wrote:
max graff wrote:

Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent


someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?

Cheers

Max


I think this is another case of "different, so must be better". By that
I mean that changing the soft rubber feet for hard cones will couple the
turntable to the support, as there's no other form of isolation. This
will make the turntable behave differently to acoustic feedback, it will
make it more susceptible to feedback, as whatever the support is will be
storing energy, and passing it directly to the turntable which is now
intimately coupled to it. Previously, with the soft rubber feet, only
acoustic energy falling directly on the turntable (including of course
the cover) could give rise to feedback.

Consequently, the turntable system will now sound different, and in this
peculiar world many of us inhabit, any change is seen as an improvement.
If the turntable had genuinely sounded better with hard cones rather
than rubber feet, don't you suppose the manufacturer might have supplied
it that way?

S.

I would have expected the manufacturer to have supplied the best
solution that would cover the worst case user. It may be that in this
case, a low level of isolation may be sufficient to prevent feedback.
And it may be that a different suspension could be a improvement.

My car seat has several adjustments to make it fit me, the same may be
true here.

But you can't know for certain without trying. There are several other
things you can stand a turntable on to see if they make a difference
without spending HiFi prices. Squash balls and wooden cabinet handles
are two you could try and see if you think there is a difference and if
you prefer it (avoiding the "better" word).

Making sure the table is level however is something you need to check
whatever you stand it on.

--
Nick

Nick Gorham wrote:
Serge Auckland wrote:
max graff wrote:

Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent


someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?

Cheers

Max


I think this is another case of "different, so must be better". By
that I mean that changing the soft rubber feet for hard cones will
couple the turntable to the support, as there's no other form of
isolation. This will make the turntable behave differently to acoustic
feedback, it will make it more susceptible to feedback, as whatever
the support is will be storing energy, and passing it directly to the
turntable which is now intimately coupled to it. Previously, with the
soft rubber feet, only acoustic energy falling directly on the
turntable (including of course the cover) could give rise to feedback.

Consequently, the turntable system will now sound different, and in
this peculiar world many of us inhabit, any change is seen as an
improvement.
If the turntable had genuinely sounded better with hard cones rather
than rubber feet, don't you suppose the manufacturer might have
supplied it that way?

S.

I would have expected the manufacturer to have supplied the best
solution that would cover the worst case user. It may be that in this
case, a low level of isolation may be sufficient to prevent feedback.
And it may be that a different suspension could be a improvement.

I agree that the manufacturer will supply the best solution that would
cover the worst case user. However, if in this case, a lower level of
isolation may be sufficient, I don't understand why changing to cones
(which have *no* isolation) could be an improvement. At best, there
would be no difference, at worse the lack of isolation will change the
sound. Then it goes back to my original thought that different=better.

My car seat has several adjustments to make it fit me, the same may be
true here.

No really, unless the manufacturer fitted adjustable hardness
suspension, which they didn't.

But you can't know for certain without trying. There are several other
things you can stand a turntable on to see if they make a difference
without spending HiFi prices. Squash balls and wooden cabinet handles
are two you could try and see if you think there is a difference and if
you prefer it (avoiding the "better" word).

Agree absolutely that the suspension makes a difference to the
propensity to feedback and hence coloration. However, as the
manufacturer has done their best to provide isolation in the form of
soft rubber feet, how is changing that an improvement? different=better
again? Your avoidance of the word "better" above is a bit of sophistry
given that if you prefer it, then, for you, it *is* better. My post was
an attempt to be objective, that all changes, *even if you prefer them*
are not necessarily better when evaluated objectively.


Making sure the table is level however is something you need to check
whatever you stand it on.

Hear Hear!

S.

Serge Auckland wrote:


Agree absolutely that the suspension makes a difference to the
propensity to feedback and hence coloration. However, as the
manufacturer has done their best to provide isolation in the form of
soft rubber feet, how is changing that an improvement? different=better
again? Your avoidance of the word "better" above is a bit of sophistry
given that if you prefer it, then, for you, it *is* better. My post was
an attempt to be objective, that all changes, *even if you prefer them*
are not necessarily better when evaluated objectively.


Well, I avoided the (subjective)better==(objective)better problem to try
and escape triggering the potential flame fest that often happens. But
to address your point, there is more going on in the mechanics of a
turntable than just isolation. If the table needs compliant mounting to
avoid feedback, then thats fine use it. However if the support is
sufficiently isolated to avoid that, then there can be advantages to
increasing the effective mass of the turntable by solid coupling, as
this can reduce the effect of motor induced vibration. Which in my
limited experence of Project turntables may be worthwhile as the motors
are often not as silent as could be hoped.

Again, YMMV, but the point is, it can vary, hence my suggestion to try
cheap solutions to see if the result it to the OP's liking.

--
Nick

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk


But to address your point, there
is more going on in the mechanics of a turntable than
just isolation. If the table needs compliant mounting to
avoid feedback, then thats fine use it. However if the
support is sufficiently isolated to avoid that, then
there can be advantages to increasing the effective mass
of the turntable by solid coupling, as this can reduce
the effect of motor induced vibration.

Here's a skill-testing question for you, Nick.

What are good ways to figure out which problem is most important to a given
vinyl rig?

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk



But to address your point, there
is more going on in the mechanics of a turntable than
just isolation. If the table needs compliant mounting to
avoid feedback, then thats fine use it. However if the
support is sufficiently isolated to avoid that, then
there can be advantages to increasing the effective mass
of the turntable by solid coupling, as this can reduce
the effect of motor induced vibration.


Here's a skill-testing question for you, Nick.

What are good ways to figure out which problem is most important to a given
vinyl rig?




Hmm, have to think on that one.

Just realised though, that increasing the effective mass of the
turntable can also increase its resistance to air and support born
vibration, so its not a either/or situation.

--
Nick

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Nick Gorham" wrote in message
. uk



But to address your point, there
is more going on in the mechanics of a turntable than
just isolation. If the table needs compliant mounting to
avoid feedback, then thats fine use it. However if the
support is sufficiently isolated to avoid that, then
there can be advantages to increasing the effective mass
of the turntable by solid coupling, as this can reduce
the effect of motor induced vibration.


Here's a skill-testing question for you, Nick.

What are good ways to figure out which problem is most important to a given
vinyl rig?




One thought would be to compare recording of the output of the table
both in the sound field of the loudspeakers and not. But that isn't
comparing the effect of reducing the mass. I guess, you would have to
make four recordings, and decide which of them was prefered.

--
Nick

"Don Pearce" wrote in message
...
On 16 Jan 2007 17:03:42 -0800, "max graff" wrote:

Hi guys,

i was reading the following article -

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showp...5&limit=recent

someone on here suggests getting rid of the the stock feet of the debut
III with adjustable cones to improve sound quality.

I was wondering how would that affect sound quality? I have pretty
sturdy stand and tiled flooring so vibrations aren't much of a problem.

Any tips?


Yup. Start drinking decaf and take up gardening. It is all starting to
get to you - and not in a good way.



I'm with you on this one, Don.....