Biwiring
 

"Ian Molton"...
Therefore they buy and recommend people to buy gear that requires
bi-wiring.

Thus if Quad didnt recommend it, they would lose out as high street
sellers wouldnt recommend their gear.

since bi-wiring wont DEcrease sound quality, why NOT recommend it?

So why do people, like What Hi-Fi magazine recommend it?
(At least, I think they do)

Biwiring
 

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 08:47:28 GMT, "Wally" wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Will the presence or otherwise of bass frequencies affect how the
cable transfers the high frequencies?

No. This *has* been tried experimentally, and even with ten amps of
bass frequency current flowing, no artifact above -140dB could be
observed in treble tones.

So, what sort of artefact was there in the treble tones?

-140dB was the limit of measurement - no artifacts to be seen.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Biwiring
 

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 08:47:28 GMT, "Wally" wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Will the presence or otherwise of bass frequencies affect how the
cable transfers the high frequencies?

No. This *has* been tried experimentally, and even with ten amps of
bass frequency current flowing, no artifact above -140dB could be
observed in treble tones.

So, what sort of artefact was there in the treble tones?

-140dB was the limit of measurement - no artifacts to be seen.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Biwiring
 

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

No. This *has* been tried experimentally, and even with ten amps of
bass frequency current flowing, no artifact above -140dB could be
observed in treble tones.

So, what sort of artefact was there in the treble tones?

-140dB was the limit of measurement - no artifacts to be seen.

Aha. :-)


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Biwiring
 

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

No. This *has* been tried experimentally, and even with ten amps of
bass frequency current flowing, no artifact above -140dB could be
observed in treble tones.

So, what sort of artefact was there in the treble tones?

-140dB was the limit of measurement - no artifacts to be seen.

Aha. :-)


--
Wally
www.art-gallery.myby.co.uk
Latest work: The Langlois Bridge (after Van Gogh)

Biwiring
 

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:18:34 -0000, "dead"
wrote:

"Ian Molton"...
Therefore they buy and recommend people to buy gear that requires
bi-wiring.

Thus if Quad didnt recommend it, they would lose out as high street
sellers wouldnt recommend their gear.

since bi-wiring wont DEcrease sound quality, why NOT recommend it?

So why do people, like What Hi-Fi magazine recommend it?
(At least, I think they do)

It gives them something to write about, and some of the contributors
like Jimmy Hughes are seriously out to lunch!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Biwiring
 

On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:18:34 -0000, "dead"
wrote:

"Ian Molton"...
Therefore they buy and recommend people to buy gear that requires
bi-wiring.

Thus if Quad didnt recommend it, they would lose out as high street
sellers wouldnt recommend their gear.

since bi-wiring wont DEcrease sound quality, why NOT recommend it?

So why do people, like What Hi-Fi magazine recommend it?
(At least, I think they do)

It gives them something to write about, and some of the contributors
like Jimmy Hughes are seriously out to lunch!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Biwiring
 

"Wally" wrote in message

Nick Gorham wrote:

Well as Stew has pointed out, it isn't going to make any difference,
but I still think assuming a high pass filter in the xover, then the
resistance of the xover will be high at low frequencies, so the
current at low frequencies will be correspondingly low.

Will the presence or otherwise of bass frequencies affect how the
cable transfers the high frequencies?


Nicely stated.

I've been saying over and over again that claims of reduction of
intermodulation due to biwiring presume that the copped cable is nonlinear,
but this says the same thing without far less technobabble.

Biwiring
 

"Wally" wrote in message

Nick Gorham wrote:

Well as Stew has pointed out, it isn't going to make any difference,
but I still think assuming a high pass filter in the xover, then the
resistance of the xover will be high at low frequencies, so the
current at low frequencies will be correspondingly low.

Will the presence or otherwise of bass frequencies affect how the
cable transfers the high frequencies?


Nicely stated.

I've been saying over and over again that claims of reduction of
intermodulation due to biwiring presume that the copped cable is nonlinear,
but this says the same thing without far less technobabble.

Biwiring
 

"Wally" wrote in message


Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Will the presence or otherwise of bass frequencies affect how the
cable transfers the high frequencies?

No. This *has* been tried experimentally, and even with ten amps of
bass frequency current flowing, no artifact above -140dB could be
observed in treble tones.

So, what sort of artifact was there in the treble tones?

Nothing audible. -140 dB corresponds to one part in ten million. Pinkerton's
point is even with measurements with that incredible level of sensitivity,
there are no artifacts to be seen.

Once upon a time, a well-known expert in audio perception (James Johnson,
then of AT&T labs, now of Microsoft) was asked for an unconditional limit to
audibility, and he said -100 dB.

This would be under absolutely ideal listening conditions, including an
unbelievably quiet room.

100 dB is the unconditional limit, for sure.

With the usual real-world messiness, the 100 dB almost always falls to
something like 60 to 80 dB, and can be as poor as 20 dB.

IOW if a spurious response is 20 dB or less down, you'll probably hear it
regardless. In typical studio or listening room conditions, you might hear
something that is 70 dB down. Under the most ideal conditions imaginable,
something 100 dB just might be audible.

Hearting something 140 dB down is really unimaginable, in real-world terms.

I can measure artifacts up to about 120 dB down, and at that point copper is
still a *perfect* conductor of audio signals, as are most common metals -
brass, aluminum, tin, nickel, gold, silver, lead, steel... However, add a
little surface contamination at the contact point, and all bets are off!

Biwiring
 

"Wally" wrote in message


Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

Will the presence or otherwise of bass frequencies affect how the
cable transfers the high frequencies?

No. This *has* been tried experimentally, and even with ten amps of
bass frequency current flowing, no artifact above -140dB could be
observed in treble tones.

So, what sort of artifact was there in the treble tones?

Nothing audible. -140 dB corresponds to one part in ten million. Pinkerton's
point is even with measurements with that incredible level of sensitivity,
there are no artifacts to be seen.

Once upon a time, a well-known expert in audio perception (James Johnson,
then of AT&T labs, now of Microsoft) was asked for an unconditional limit to
audibility, and he said -100 dB.

This would be under absolutely ideal listening conditions, including an
unbelievably quiet room.

100 dB is the unconditional limit, for sure.

With the usual real-world messiness, the 100 dB almost always falls to
something like 60 to 80 dB, and can be as poor as 20 dB.

IOW if a spurious response is 20 dB or less down, you'll probably hear it
regardless. In typical studio or listening room conditions, you might hear
something that is 70 dB down. Under the most ideal conditions imaginable,
something 100 dB just might be audible.

Hearting something 140 dB down is really unimaginable, in real-world terms.

I can measure artifacts up to about 120 dB down, and at that point copper is
still a *perfect* conductor of audio signals, as are most common metals -
brass, aluminum, tin, nickel, gold, silver, lead, steel... However, add a
little surface contamination at the contact point, and all bets are off!

Biwiring
 

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message


Stewart Pinkerton wrote:


On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:01:09 -0000, "RJH"
wrote:



Well, thanks for all the opinions. I can't really argue with the
technical knowledge you all have, and I looked at Jim Lesurf's (I
think) page a while back and that seemed to say 'no measurable
difference'. I've given it a go with some old qed 79 strand biwire
stuff I happen to have, and I'm afraid I think it sounds a bit
better, particularly extremes - bass and treble.


Interesting, since it's only around the crossover that biwiring has
even the slightest theoretical advantage.


I can't convince myself that this may (or may not) make a difference,
but one point is that while both wires see the same voltage, the cable
to the treble posts are only carrying the current produced by the
treble part of the signal.


However, since copper wire is highly linear, there are few if any
consequences - nothing audible as long as either cable is itself a competent
piece of work.


Agreed, however if there are any problems with poor or dirty connectors
then maybe this could make a difference.

--
Nick

Biwiring
 

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message


Stewart Pinkerton wrote:


On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:01:09 -0000, "RJH"
wrote:



Well, thanks for all the opinions. I can't really argue with the
technical knowledge you all have, and I looked at Jim Lesurf's (I
think) page a while back and that seemed to say 'no measurable
difference'. I've given it a go with some old qed 79 strand biwire
stuff I happen to have, and I'm afraid I think it sounds a bit
better, particularly extremes - bass and treble.


Interesting, since it's only around the crossover that biwiring has
even the slightest theoretical advantage.


I can't convince myself that this may (or may not) make a difference,
but one point is that while both wires see the same voltage, the cable
to the treble posts are only carrying the current produced by the
treble part of the signal.


However, since copper wire is highly linear, there are few if any
consequences - nothing audible as long as either cable is itself a competent
piece of work.


Agreed, however if there are any problems with poor or dirty connectors
then maybe this could make a difference.

--
Nick

Biwiring
 

RJH wrote:

"Form@C" wrote in message
.. .

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 09:11:18 +0000, RJH wrote:


Hi - I've just bought some speakers, JMLab Chorus 715, marvellous.

Anyway,

something in the setup instructions intrigued me - bi-wiring "reduces or
eliminates any problem caused by the bass drivers feeding any signal

back to

the amplifier. This signal intermodulates and spoils the sound quality

of

the midrange and treble". Er, what?!

I don't bother with biwiring as a rule, but should this cause a rethink?


Some say better, some say no difference, some say worse.
Try it - it's only the cost of a bit of speaker cable! Make decent stands

a

priority though. Personally, I have bi-wired a (heavily modified) old pair

of

Kef Codas & I *think* they sound better. That's enough for me. It may be
just in my mind, but so what?

--
Mick
http://www.nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini information
Also at http://www.mixtel.co.uk where the collection started.
Currently deserting M$ for linux... :-)


Well, thanks for all the opinions. I can't really argue with the technical
knowledge you all have, and I looked at Jim Lesurf's (I think) page a while
back and that seemed to say 'no measureable difference'. I've given it a go
with some old qed 79 strand biwire stuff I happen to have, and I'm afraid I
think it sounds a bit better, particularly extremes - bass and treble. There
could be other variables - the cable itself, or the fact that I cleaned
everything while I was at it. Being gullible isn't too bad if it doesn't
cost anything! You may note that some of Focus-JMLabs' really expensive
speakers (well, £5k) don't have biwire facility. Wonder why?


Well assuming for one moment that biwiring did make a difference, and I
don't think it does myself, then it would only make sense for a two way
speaker. Tri or quad would be needed, and I think I remember that the
bigger JML are like that.

--
Nick

Biwiring
 

RJH wrote:

"Form@C" wrote in message
.. .

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 09:11:18 +0000, RJH wrote:


Hi - I've just bought some speakers, JMLab Chorus 715, marvellous.

Anyway,

something in the setup instructions intrigued me - bi-wiring "reduces or
eliminates any problem caused by the bass drivers feeding any signal

back to

the amplifier. This signal intermodulates and spoils the sound quality

of

the midrange and treble". Er, what?!

I don't bother with biwiring as a rule, but should this cause a rethink?


Some say better, some say no difference, some say worse.
Try it - it's only the cost of a bit of speaker cable! Make decent stands

a

priority though. Personally, I have bi-wired a (heavily modified) old pair

of

Kef Codas & I *think* they sound better. That's enough for me. It may be
just in my mind, but so what?

--
Mick
http://www.nascom.info for Nascom & Gemini information
Also at http://www.mixtel.co.uk where the collection started.
Currently deserting M$ for linux... :-)


Well, thanks for all the opinions. I can't really argue with the technical
knowledge you all have, and I looked at Jim Lesurf's (I think) page a while
back and that seemed to say 'no measureable difference'. I've given it a go
with some old qed 79 strand biwire stuff I happen to have, and I'm afraid I
think it sounds a bit better, particularly extremes - bass and treble. There
could be other variables - the cable itself, or the fact that I cleaned
everything while I was at it. Being gullible isn't too bad if it doesn't
cost anything! You may note that some of Focus-JMLabs' really expensive
speakers (well, £5k) don't have biwire facility. Wonder why?


Well assuming for one moment that biwiring did make a difference, and I
don't think it does myself, then it would only make sense for a two way
speaker. Tri or quad would be needed, and I think I remember that the
bigger JML are like that.

--
Nick

Biwiring
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message


Stewart Pinkerton wrote:


On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:01:09 -0000, "RJH"
wrote:



Well, thanks for all the opinions. I can't really argue with the
technical knowledge you all have, and I looked at Jim Lesurf's (I
think) page a while back and that seemed to say 'no measurable
difference'. I've given it a go with some old qed 79 strand biwire
stuff I happen to have, and I'm afraid I think it sounds a bit
better, particularly extremes - bass and treble.

Interesting, since it's only around the crossover that biwiring has
even the slightest theoretical advantage.

I can't convince myself that this may (or may not) make a
difference, but one point is that while both wires see the same
voltage, the cable to the treble posts are only carrying the
current produced by the treble part of the signal.

However, since copper wire is highly linear, there are few if any
consequences - nothing audible as long as either cable is itself a
competent piece of work.


Agreed, however if there are any problems with poor or dirty
connectors then maybe this could make a difference.

Agreed, but since we're talking about avoidable mistakes, more likely would
be an undesirable polarity switch of one of the two cables.

Biwiring
 

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message


Stewart Pinkerton wrote:


On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 17:01:09 -0000, "RJH"
wrote:



Well, thanks for all the opinions. I can't really argue with the
technical knowledge you all have, and I looked at Jim Lesurf's (I
think) page a while back and that seemed to say 'no measurable
difference'. I've given it a go with some old qed 79 strand biwire
stuff I happen to have, and I'm afraid I think it sounds a bit
better, particularly extremes - bass and treble.

Interesting, since it's only around the crossover that biwiring has
even the slightest theoretical advantage.

I can't convince myself that this may (or may not) make a
difference, but one point is that while both wires see the same
voltage, the cable to the treble posts are only carrying the
current produced by the treble part of the signal.

However, since copper wire is highly linear, there are few if any
consequences - nothing audible as long as either cable is itself a
competent piece of work.


Agreed, however if there are any problems with poor or dirty
connectors then maybe this could make a difference.

Agreed, but since we're talking about avoidable mistakes, more likely would
be an undesirable polarity switch of one of the two cables.

Biwiring
 

"RJH" wrote

snip

Well, thanks for all the opinions. I can't really argue with the technical
knowledge you all have, and I looked at Jim Lesurf's (I think) page a
while
back and that seemed to say 'no measureable difference'. I've given it a
go
with some old qed 79 strand biwire stuff I happen to have, and I'm afraid
I
think it sounds a bit better, particularly extremes - bass and treble.
There
could be other variables - the cable itself, or the fact that I cleaned
everything while I was at it. Being gullible isn't too bad if it doesn't
cost anything!



Don't feel too bad about this - Samuel Johnson (1709-84) has already covered
the subject of bi-wiring with the following:

"All argument is against it; but all belief is for it".........

Biwiring
 

"RJH" wrote

snip

Well, thanks for all the opinions. I can't really argue with the technical
knowledge you all have, and I looked at Jim Lesurf's (I think) page a
while
back and that seemed to say 'no measureable difference'. I've given it a
go
with some old qed 79 strand biwire stuff I happen to have, and I'm afraid
I
think it sounds a bit better, particularly extremes - bass and treble.
There
could be other variables - the cable itself, or the fact that I cleaned
everything while I was at it. Being gullible isn't too bad if it doesn't
cost anything!



Don't feel too bad about this - Samuel Johnson (1709-84) has already covered
the subject of bi-wiring with the following:

"All argument is against it; but all belief is for it".........

Biwiring
 

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:53:16 +0000, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message


I can't convince myself that this may (or may not) make a difference,
but one point is that while both wires see the same voltage, the cable
to the treble posts are only carrying the current produced by the
treble part of the signal.

However, since copper wire is highly linear, there are few if any
consequences - nothing audible as long as either cable is itself a competent
piece of work.

Agreed, however if there are any problems with poor or dirty connectors
then maybe this could make a difference.

Yes indeed - and there are twice as many connections to a bi-wired
speaker...........................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Biwiring
 

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 14:53:16 +0000, Nick Gorham
wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

"Nick Gorham" wrote in message


I can't convince myself that this may (or may not) make a difference,
but one point is that while both wires see the same voltage, the cable
to the treble posts are only carrying the current produced by the
treble part of the signal.

However, since copper wire is highly linear, there are few if any
consequences - nothing audible as long as either cable is itself a competent
piece of work.

Agreed, however if there are any problems with poor or dirty connectors
then maybe this could make a difference.

Yes indeed - and there are twice as many connections to a bi-wired
speaker...........................
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Biwiring
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"RJH" wrote

snip

Well, thanks for all the opinions. I can't really argue with the
technical
knowledge you all have, and I looked at Jim Lesurf's (I think) page a
while
back and that seemed to say 'no measureable difference'. I've given it a
go
with some old qed 79 strand biwire stuff I happen to have, and I'm
afraid
I
think it sounds a bit better, particularly extremes - bass and treble.
There
could be other variables - the cable itself, or the fact that I cleaned
everything while I was at it. Being gullible isn't too bad if it doesn't
cost anything!



Don't feel too bad about this - Samuel Johnson (1709-84) has already
covered
the subject of bi-wiring with the following:

"All argument is against it; but all belief is for it".........






Umm, I think he was referring to the 'afterlife' at the time cos I'm sure
Samuel never ever biwired his own system.

Mike

Biwiring
 

"Keith G" wrote in message
...

"RJH" wrote

snip

Well, thanks for all the opinions. I can't really argue with the
technical
knowledge you all have, and I looked at Jim Lesurf's (I think) page a
while
back and that seemed to say 'no measureable difference'. I've given it a
go
with some old qed 79 strand biwire stuff I happen to have, and I'm
afraid
I
think it sounds a bit better, particularly extremes - bass and treble.
There
could be other variables - the cable itself, or the fact that I cleaned
everything while I was at it. Being gullible isn't too bad if it doesn't
cost anything!



Don't feel too bad about this - Samuel Johnson (1709-84) has already
covered
the subject of bi-wiring with the following:

"All argument is against it; but all belief is for it".........






Umm, I think he was referring to the 'afterlife' at the time cos I'm sure
Samuel never ever biwired his own system.

Mike

Biwiring
 

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:45:32 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"RJH" wrote in message
...
Hi - I've just bought some speakers, JMLab Chorus 715, marvellous. Anyway,
something in the setup instructions intrigued me - bi-wiring "reduces or
eliminates any problem caused by the bass drivers feeding any signal back
to
the amplifier. This signal intermodulates and spoils the sound quality of
the midrange and treble". Er, what?!

I don't bother with biwiring as a rule, but should this cause a rethink?

Rob




Heh heh! Good old Rob - we haven't had a 'Biwiring' thread here for, ooh,
let's see - must be days now!

It's really quite simple, reading those instructions has already caused to
you rethink. My suggestion is that, if you already have the necessary wire
kicking about, you try it yourself and see if it makes any difference to
you. If not, then I suggest you leave the speakers bi-wired and keep 'all
bases covered'. (Placebo Effect alone makes this the 'better' option....
:-)

Biwiring is a bit like Ghost Stories - no conclusive proof either way** so
the myths continue and have done so long enough for fair-minded people to
think 'it's gone on for so long now, there *has* to be someting in it.....'
(My take is that there is almost certainly a difference, especially if there
are poor quality or faulty components in the equation, but that it is likely
to be so far outside the audible range as be entirely academic.)

Out of interest, on the subject of bi and tri-wiring, Ruark say "Where
possible we recommend you take advantage of this facility as the only extra
cost is that of one or two extra pairs of speaker cable. etc etc." They make
*no* mention of sound quality (improvements or otherwise) whatsoever. I
think they are also just 'covering all the bases' and by implication they
would appear to not expect you to spend too much on the speaker cables, in
any case.....


** Unless *you* know different - anybody here prepared to claim that
bi-wiring produces a palpable improvement to a particular speaker/amp combo?

Yes, see previous post. Tannoy 611 mk2 floorstanders, Denon AV1-SE

Biwiring
 

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:45:32 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:


"RJH" wrote in message
...
Hi - I've just bought some speakers, JMLab Chorus 715, marvellous. Anyway,
something in the setup instructions intrigued me - bi-wiring "reduces or
eliminates any problem caused by the bass drivers feeding any signal back
to
the amplifier. This signal intermodulates and spoils the sound quality of
the midrange and treble". Er, what?!

I don't bother with biwiring as a rule, but should this cause a rethink?

Rob




Heh heh! Good old Rob - we haven't had a 'Biwiring' thread here for, ooh,
let's see - must be days now!

It's really quite simple, reading those instructions has already caused to
you rethink. My suggestion is that, if you already have the necessary wire
kicking about, you try it yourself and see if it makes any difference to
you. If not, then I suggest you leave the speakers bi-wired and keep 'all
bases covered'. (Placebo Effect alone makes this the 'better' option....
:-)

Biwiring is a bit like Ghost Stories - no conclusive proof either way** so
the myths continue and have done so long enough for fair-minded people to
think 'it's gone on for so long now, there *has* to be someting in it.....'
(My take is that there is almost certainly a difference, especially if there
are poor quality or faulty components in the equation, but that it is likely
to be so far outside the audible range as be entirely academic.)

Out of interest, on the subject of bi and tri-wiring, Ruark say "Where
possible we recommend you take advantage of this facility as the only extra
cost is that of one or two extra pairs of speaker cable. etc etc." They make
*no* mention of sound quality (improvements or otherwise) whatsoever. I
think they are also just 'covering all the bases' and by implication they
would appear to not expect you to spend too much on the speaker cables, in
any case.....


** Unless *you* know different - anybody here prepared to claim that
bi-wiring produces a palpable improvement to a particular speaker/amp combo?

Yes, see previous post. Tannoy 611 mk2 floorstanders, Denon AV1-SE

Biwiring
 

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:41:58 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Ian Molton" wrote in message

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:02:06 +0000 (UTC)
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:

since bi-wiring wont DEcrease sound quality, why NOT recommend it?

Excellent synopsis! :-)

My pleasure :-)

The practical downside to biwiring is that it can train people to *hear*
differences that aren't there. Once you get people to listen errrrrr
creatively, there's a ready market for green CD pens, magic oils, fancy
interconnects, the whole nasty ball of gelled snake oil.

I've tried to stay out of this I really have. I know the objectivists will
shoot me down but here goes again.

Over the years I've heard of many things to experiment with that I simply
had no understanding of why they could make the slightest difference. Many
things (to my ears) confirmed my sceptic thinking and completely failed to
show any difference to me at all. These included...

Green pens, reversing speaker lead direction, absolute phase. None of
these produced any effect detectable to me.

However, that is not always the case. There are some things that I'm sure
I can hear and one I've proved to myself in a double blind (amp in a
different room to listening panel) though all the others I have not done a
DB test.

The proved one (to me and friends at least) was a mosfet power amp
sounding quite different depending on the object beneath it. I have
written an account of this on the NG before and don't wish to do this
again. I have no explanation as to why it sounded different but it did and
it was not subtle either.

I'm also absolutely sure that the two sets of speaker leads I'm using on
my speakers ATM sound different. Some of you may say that if that is the
case, then at least one must have unacceptable levels of RCL and I do have
an electronics background and can see why they say this.

I don't have either an inductance or a capacitance meter but my Fluke DMM
shows nothing significant in resistance terms about the cables. One cable
is a figure of 8 construction (QED XTUBE XT350) and the other is simply
lightly twisted (Chord Odyssey).

Okay so bare with me that they sound different for now. Yes Stewart, I
know that dog don't bark!!! The one QED has the better bass and the other
has the better HF so you can guess how they are connected.

My amplifier has not blown up in the last 6 months (probably will now)
that I've been doing this and I prefer the sound. I don't really care why
or how. If I enjoy the sound more then that's it. It doesn't really matter
if its in my head, an unknown effect or a particular combination of RCL.
My HiFi is for music enjoyment, not a science paper.

If I was going to buy a speaker I would listen and buy what I liked would
I not? So why should I not do the same with cables, provided they don't
destroy the amp even if they do have high resistance or something?

I for one do not believe science knows everything there is to know about
anything. Science is just the tested best theory of the day, it is not a
truth.


Cheers,

Bob.

Great Bob! If it sounds good then it sounds good, wether the
scientists approve or not.

My personal expenice is that Bi-Wiring my Tannoys to my Denon AMP made
a MASSIVE difference. Much clearer mid and treble and tighter base.

Would always TRY bi-wiring speakers to see if a difference can be
heard. I do not believe that a blanket statement of bi-wiring makes no
difference or bi-wiring will always sound better us true. I believe
that like most things in a home cinema set-up its depends on all sorts
of factors not limited to but including the type of cable, speakers,
amp and room layout.

Biwiring
 

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:41:58 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote:

In article ,
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Ian Molton" wrote in message

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:02:06 +0000 (UTC)
(Stewart Pinkerton) wrote:

since bi-wiring wont DEcrease sound quality, why NOT recommend it?

Excellent synopsis! :-)

My pleasure :-)

The practical downside to biwiring is that it can train people to *hear*
differences that aren't there. Once you get people to listen errrrrr
creatively, there's a ready market for green CD pens, magic oils, fancy
interconnects, the whole nasty ball of gelled snake oil.

I've tried to stay out of this I really have. I know the objectivists will
shoot me down but here goes again.

Over the years I've heard of many things to experiment with that I simply
had no understanding of why they could make the slightest difference. Many
things (to my ears) confirmed my sceptic thinking and completely failed to
show any difference to me at all. These included...

Green pens, reversing speaker lead direction, absolute phase. None of
these produced any effect detectable to me.

However, that is not always the case. There are some things that I'm sure
I can hear and one I've proved to myself in a double blind (amp in a
different room to listening panel) though all the others I have not done a
DB test.

The proved one (to me and friends at least) was a mosfet power amp
sounding quite different depending on the object beneath it. I have
written an account of this on the NG before and don't wish to do this
again. I have no explanation as to why it sounded different but it did and
it was not subtle either.

I'm also absolutely sure that the two sets of speaker leads I'm using on
my speakers ATM sound different. Some of you may say that if that is the
case, then at least one must have unacceptable levels of RCL and I do have
an electronics background and can see why they say this.

I don't have either an inductance or a capacitance meter but my Fluke DMM
shows nothing significant in resistance terms about the cables. One cable
is a figure of 8 construction (QED XTUBE XT350) and the other is simply
lightly twisted (Chord Odyssey).

Okay so bare with me that they sound different for now. Yes Stewart, I
know that dog don't bark!!! The one QED has the better bass and the other
has the better HF so you can guess how they are connected.

My amplifier has not blown up in the last 6 months (probably will now)
that I've been doing this and I prefer the sound. I don't really care why
or how. If I enjoy the sound more then that's it. It doesn't really matter
if its in my head, an unknown effect or a particular combination of RCL.
My HiFi is for music enjoyment, not a science paper.

If I was going to buy a speaker I would listen and buy what I liked would
I not? So why should I not do the same with cables, provided they don't
destroy the amp even if they do have high resistance or something?

I for one do not believe science knows everything there is to know about
anything. Science is just the tested best theory of the day, it is not a
truth.


Cheers,

Bob.

Great Bob! If it sounds good then it sounds good, wether the
scientists approve or not.

My personal expenice is that Bi-Wiring my Tannoys to my Denon AMP made
a MASSIVE difference. Much clearer mid and treble and tighter base.

Would always TRY bi-wiring speakers to see if a difference can be
heard. I do not believe that a blanket statement of bi-wiring makes no
difference or bi-wiring will always sound better us true. I believe
that like most things in a home cinema set-up its depends on all sorts
of factors not limited to but including the type of cable, speakers,
amp and room layout.

Biwiring
 

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:16:06 +0000
Nutter wrote:

** Unless *you* know different - anybody here prepared to claim that
bi-wiring produces a palpable improvement to a particular speaker/amp combo?

Yes, see previous post. Tannoy 611 mk2 floorstanders, Denon AV1-SE

I guess your hearing lives up to the image suggested by your 'handle'...

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

Biwiring
 

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:16:06 +0000
Nutter wrote:

** Unless *you* know different - anybody here prepared to claim that
bi-wiring produces a palpable improvement to a particular speaker/amp combo?

Yes, see previous post. Tannoy 611 mk2 floorstanders, Denon AV1-SE

I guess your hearing lives up to the image suggested by your 'handle'...

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

Biwiring
 

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:23:03 +0000
Nutter wrote:

My personal expenice is that Bi-Wiring my Tannoys to my Denon AMP made
a MASSIVE difference. Much clearer mid and treble and tighter base.

I'd put money on any audible difference being down to the cabling itself, not the fact the speakers were bi-wired.

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

Biwiring
 

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:23:03 +0000
Nutter wrote:

My personal expenice is that Bi-Wiring my Tannoys to my Denon AMP made
a MASSIVE difference. Much clearer mid and treble and tighter base.

I'd put money on any audible difference being down to the cabling itself, not the fact the speakers were bi-wired.

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

Biwiring
 

Would always TRY bi-wiring speakers to see if a difference can be
heard. I do not believe that a blanket statement of bi-wiring makes no
difference or bi-wiring will always sound better us true. I believe
that like most things in a home cinema set-up its depends on all sorts
of factors not limited to but including the type of cable, speakers,
amp and room layout.

Even just running twice the cables between sets of single terminals will
improve the sound due to the halving of the cable resistance and increase in
system damping factor.

My speakers are biwired, as the sub is currently on a passive x/over so I
don't want that crossover in line with my tweeters. There is a marked
difference in quality this way. Running without the sub there is a minimal
but noticable difference.

Biwiring
 

Would always TRY bi-wiring speakers to see if a difference can be
heard. I do not believe that a blanket statement of bi-wiring makes no
difference or bi-wiring will always sound better us true. I believe
that like most things in a home cinema set-up its depends on all sorts
of factors not limited to but including the type of cable, speakers,
amp and room layout.

Even just running twice the cables between sets of single terminals will
improve the sound due to the halving of the cable resistance and increase in
system damping factor.

My speakers are biwired, as the sub is currently on a passive x/over so I
don't want that crossover in line with my tweeters. There is a marked
difference in quality this way. Running without the sub there is a minimal
but noticable difference.

Biwiring
 

In article , Tim S Kemp
wrote:

Would always TRY bi-wiring speakers to see if a difference can be
heard. I do not believe that a blanket statement of bi-wiring makes no
difference or bi-wiring will always sound better us true. I believe
that like most things in a home cinema set-up its depends on all sorts
of factors not limited to but including the type of cable, speakers,
amp and room layout.

Even just running twice the cables between sets of single terminals will
improve the sound due to the halving of the cable resistance and
increase in system damping factor.

Erm.. I think that the amount of damping is also affected by the series
resistance of the actual loudspeaker unit(s). Once this value is noticable
larger than that of the cables, then changing the resistance of the cables
should not really have much effect upon damping.

There may be some small changes in the overall frequency response, though.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Biwiring
 

In article , Tim S Kemp
wrote:

Would always TRY bi-wiring speakers to see if a difference can be
heard. I do not believe that a blanket statement of bi-wiring makes no
difference or bi-wiring will always sound better us true. I believe
that like most things in a home cinema set-up its depends on all sorts
of factors not limited to but including the type of cable, speakers,
amp and room layout.

Even just running twice the cables between sets of single terminals will
improve the sound due to the halving of the cable resistance and
increase in system damping factor.

Erm.. I think that the amount of damping is also affected by the series
resistance of the actual loudspeaker unit(s). Once this value is noticable
larger than that of the cables, then changing the resistance of the cables
should not really have much effect upon damping.

There may be some small changes in the overall frequency response, though.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html