"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 01:29:52 -0000, "Keith G"
wrote:

No, I'm sure you're right - *all* amps producing the same voltage to the
same pair of speakers in exactly the same way will produce exactly the
same
sound....... :-)

Yeah, but 'exactly the same way' means that they have to have the same
distortion characteristics.


Yup.

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:55:33 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

Yeah, but 'exactly the same way' means that they have to have the same
distortion characteristics.


Yup.

Ok, so now you agreed that driving the same voltage on the speaker terminals will cause the speaker to move the same way, given that the amps PSU is up to it, then:

1) Explain why a SS amp could not drive the voltages in the same way as a valve one
2) At what point do you declare differences to be inaudible? equipment exists that can measure down to about -140dB - are you suggesting the 'valve sound' comes from sub -140dB artifcats ? perhaps this is why speaker wire makes a difference - maybe they were right after all!

;-)

--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

"Ian Molton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:55:33 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

Yeah, but 'exactly the same way' means that they have to have the same
distortion characteristics.


Yup.

Ok, so now you agreed that driving the same voltage on the speaker
terminals will cause the speaker to move the same way, given that the amps
PSU is up to it, then:


You don't sell insurance for a living by any chance, do you?

:-)



1) Explain why a SS amp could not drive the voltages in the same way as a
valve one


Forgetting that little magic word, are we??


2) At what point do you declare differences to be inaudible?


Out on the back step - all the way indoors, up to the patio door, I can tell
without any problem. Once outside, it starts to become less obvious -
specially if I'm cutting the grass (petrol mower).....


equipment exists that can measure down to about -140dB - are you
suggesting the 'valve sound' comes from sub -140dB artifcats ?


We're bird-feeders - I see any artifcats round here they get an apple (when
available or handful of peanuts, if not) chucked at them!


perhaps this is why speaker wire makes a difference - maybe they were
right after all!



OK, enough ****ing about.

Ian, it's no big deal - you either *get* valves or you don't. Not everybody
does, so don't bash yer brains out. It's not easy to describe the
'difference' without resorting to subjective phrases like 'space', air',
'texture', 'vitality', 'musicality' or whatever. These phrases immediately
draw a (usually hostile) reaction from the unbelievers and the strange
phenomenon of valves and SS becoming antagonistic and mutually exclusive
starts to appear. (A load of ********, given that I've had an SS amp driven
by valve pre's on the go today! - See

http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit...w/sharkey1.MOV

for a ****e little movie of this in action! :-)

Also the 'science' involved is a) mostly way over my head and b) not clearly
agreed on by any significany majority of the theorists. All I can say is if
you haven't spent any time with a valve amp yourself, get a good listen and
see if it does anything for you.

Knowing this don't happen on every street corner, I often say people I
*know* on this group are welcome to come and hear mine (and take the ****,
if that's what they want) if it's doable. (I'm in Cambridgeshire right on
the A1, where are you? - Cornwall, I expect, given your predilection for
dragons!)

:-)

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 23:54:54 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

You don't sell insurance for a living by any chance, do you?

:-)

No, I write code ;-) fx: hides tail

1) Explain why a SS amp could not drive the voltages in the same way as a
valve one

Forgetting that little magic word, are we??

fx: bats eyelids 'please?'

OK, enough ****ing about.

Ian, it's no big deal - you either *get* valves or you don't.

If you dont get any you wont have any to build your amp with...

Not everybody does, so don't bash yer brains out.

Please, enough of that - Im not stupid and dont need to be talked down to.

I *OWN* some valve gear. sadly its been damaged (cosmetically only) and I dont use it anymore, but I did like its sound. I certianly wouldnt have applied terms such as 'linear' or 'accurate' to it though. More 'warm' and 'coloured'.

Most valve amps (like most transistor amps) were mass market, and had a good number of nonlinearities and other problems (not least of which bursting into flames, on both 'sides'). The good ones were more linear and had less distortion.

I'd bet that the *best* valve and transistor amps are sonically indistinguishable, perhaps so much so as to be hard to tell apart on equipment.

It's not easy to describe the
'difference' without resorting to subjective phrases like 'space', air',
'texture', 'vitality', 'musicality' or whatever.

Thats because phrases like 'musicality' belong nowhere near terms like 'accurate reproduction'.

If you like the valve sound, you might as well be honest and admit you like a good gob of distortion, because the 'valve sound' was characterised by the common valve amps, and not the (more) linear ones.

The same happens in transistor amps too - people still like that 'valve like sound' and even extremely expensive transistor amps seem to deliberately cultivate high 2nd harmonic distortion levels.

These phrases immediately draw a (usually hostile) reaction from the unbelievers

No, they just make anyone interested in an accurate account of the 'valve sound' cringe and look elsewhere.

You'd get far more converts if you just told people 'this gear makes the sound good' instead of 'this gear reproduces it better'.

and the strange phenomenon of valves and SS becoming antagonistic and mutually exclusive
starts to appear.

Weird huh?

Also the 'science' involved is a) mostly way over my head

Its simple stuff. anyone with a GCSE in math or insect biology (or better, O-level) can do it.

and b) not clearly agreed on by any significany majority of the theorists.

Sorry, but thats out-right wrong. besides improvement in technology based on things that theoretical that theoretical is WELL beyond your ability to hear it. (or just plain snakeoil...)

All I can say is if
you haven't spent any time with a valve amp yourself, get a good listen and
see if it does anything for you.

I have. I like them. but I'll be keeping my SS amp - its just as good as a good valve amp, and a lot cheaper to maintain and run.

Knowing this don't happen on every street corner, I often say people I
*know* on this group are welcome to come and hear mine (and take the ****,
if that's what they want) if it's doable. (I'm in Cambridgeshire right on
the A1, where are you? - Cornwall, I expect, given your predilection for
dragons!)

Cheshire, actually. I have a friend in St. Neots though... (no, Im not carting my Radford Monitor ones down there - way too heavy to get on the train...


--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with ketchup.

"Ian Molton" wrote

Please, enough of that - Im not stupid and dont need to be talked down to.


Forgive me - your apostrophic deficiencies imply otherwise.... :-)



I *OWN* some valve gear. sadly its been damaged (cosmetically only) and I
dont use it anymore, but I did like its sound.


Well there you are then! (Makes me wonder what all the fuss is about!)


I certianly wouldnt have applied terms such as 'linear' or 'accurate' to
it though.


Fine, neither would I....


More 'warm' and 'coloured'.


If you like. If it makes you happy (and if that's all you've ever heard....
;-)....



Most valve amps (like most transistor amps) were mass market, and had a
good number of nonlinearities and other problems (not least of which
bursting into flames, on both 'sides'). The good ones were more linear and
had less distortion.


Few say so...



I'd bet that the *best* valve and transistor amps are sonically
indistinguishable, perhaps so much so as to be hard to tell apart on
equipment.


Very likely, I wouldn't know - I'm light years away from the 'best' of
either one.....!!



It's not easy to describe the
'difference' without resorting to subjective phrases like 'space', air',
'texture', 'vitality', 'musicality' or whatever.

Thats because phrases like 'musicality' belong nowhere near terms like
'accurate reproduction'.



Who TF gives a rat's arse about 'accurate reproduction' if it ain't
*musical*? - I'm in the business of entertaining myself, not supplying
myself with fekkin' laboratory data!



If you like the valve sound, you might as well be honest and admit you
like a good gob of distortion,


Be 'honest'??? What is it with all you SS 'purists'? You want us valvey
types to break down in some sort of confessional hysteria about our
'weaknesses'??? I got news for you - *all* hifi gear distorts to some
degree, compond that distortion with a bad mix of kit and you can easily
spend a lot of money to end up with summat that sounds a damn sight worse
than a Dixon's 'music centre'!!



because the 'valve sound' was characterised by the common valve amps, and
not the (more) linear ones.

The same happens in transistor amps too - people still like that 'valve
like sound' and even extremely expensive transistor amps seem to
deliberately cultivate high 2nd harmonic distortion levels.


Yup, 'valvelike' is one of the popular buzzwords in the hifi comix atm.



These phrases immediately draw a (usually hostile) reaction from the
unbelievers

No, they just make anyone interested in an accurate account of the 'valve
sound' cringe and look elsewhere.


If only they would - the reality is that they usually come full-on in some
sort of 'apocryphal' way trying desparately to make us see the 'error of our
ways'. (I think they feel threatened...)



You'd get far more converts if you just told people 'this gear makes the
sound good' instead of 'this gear reproduces it better'.


Who TF needs converts? If you had read any of my previous posts on the
subject of valves I think you will find I have said often that I prefer them
but I don't think they're for everybody (or somesuch). Put another way, I
would say if anyone doesn't like valves then they should avoid them, just
don't try telling me SS (amps) sound better because they don't AFAIAC!! OK?



and the strange phenomenon of valves and SS becoming antagonistic and
mutually exclusive
starts to appear.

Weird huh?


Yep! Happens all the time in here - we had it with vinyl a year ago. (Like
there's some law says you can't do both digital *and* analogue or summat!)


rest snipped - it's getting late


Cheshire, actually. I have a friend in St. Neots though... (no, Im not
carting my Radford Monitor ones down there - way too heavy to get on the
train...


And my brother in law lives in Cheshire - small world innit?

:-)

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 01:31:56 -0000
"Keith G" wrote:

"Ian Molton" wrote

Please, enough of that - Im not stupid and dont need to be talked
down to.

Forgive me - your apostrophic deficiencies imply otherwise.... :-)

Pure laziness, I assure you...

Few say so...

Ok, it looks like a point is being missed.

Given you already know you cant *measure* 'quality', which is your
subjective views on a systems sound, there is only one way to 'rate' an
amp, and that is to determine how accurately it can reproduce a waveform
on its output that differs only in amplitude from its input (into any
given speakers). There is simply nothing else to measure. All else is,
completely, utterly subjective.

Thus when people talk about how good a piece of kit is relative to any
other, they *must* talk in terms of this accuracy, as to compare
subjective opinions of the kit is just plain meaningless. Who knows -
some people may even *like* crossover distortion and class C amps.

The 'valve' vs 'solid state' argument, is, thus, completely moot - the
only measure you can apply is that above, and so you cannot claim an amp
with an inferior output (in those terms) is better.

wether you like one amp better or not is irrelevant in such a
comparison. Heck, many people choose their amp and speakers based on
their size, or even less tangible traits such as 'coolness'.

Who TF gives a rat's arse about 'accurate reproduction' if it ain't
*musical*?

Well, Im sure you'll be the first to admit that the best possible sound is obtained from sitting in front of the musicians.

Thus, a 100% accurate reproduction will sound 100% like the real thing.

Of course if you like to turn the bass up (effectively distorting the signal) then you may CHOOSE to rate the system as 110% as good as the original, but you can hardly claim your listening preference is more musical than the original musicians.

(unless you listen to something like britney spears or summat)

- I'm in the business of entertaining myself, not supplying
myself with fekkin' laboratory data!

Ditto, which is why, when watching that scene in LoTR where sauron 'explodes' I turn my tone controls from 'neutral' to 'thundering bass'.

Im not about to claim I made the soundtrack more, um, musical, though...

If you like the valve sound, you might as well be honest and admit
you like a good gob of distortion,

Be 'honest'??? What is it with all you SS 'purists'? You want us
valvey types to break down in some sort of confessional hysteria about
our'weaknesses'???

No. not really. Unless it turns you on or something ;-)

just stop saying its 'better' or 'more musical' please (bear in mind this applies to any nonlinear system, not just nonlinear valve amps).

You might like it better, but unless it sounds more like the original than another system, more musical it aint.

On a slightly different track... There is a point to be made in that some recordings 'sound' is so utterly 'classic' and 'well known' that its accepted that the recording is supposed to sound like that - eg. a lot of pop and rock that was recorded onto vinyl. People just expect it to sound like vinyl, and one way of getting that sound is simply to play records (on a non-linear amp if thats part of the expected sound, too).

There is *nothing* that says a linear system with a clean digital source cant sound identical, but you have to play the right signal into its inputs if you want the right output...

I got news for you - *all* hifi gear distorts to some degree

Some audibly, some not.

Yup, 'valvelike' is one of the popular buzzwords in the hifi comix
atm.

implying that either transistor amps now sound like a hypothrtically linear valve amp, or a linear transistor amp has been made to sound like a nonlinear valve amp. Take your pick ;-)

If only they would - the reality is that they usually come full-on in
some sort of 'apocryphal' way trying desparately to make us see the
'error of our ways'. (I think they feel threatened...)

If you would use words like 'linear' instead of 'SS' or 'sounds better to me' instead of 'its more musical' I suspect you'd get a much less hostile reaction.

just don't try telling me SS (amps) sound better
because they don't AFAIAC!! OK?

In many cases the only measurable quantity is better in the SS amp (is seems its easier to design a basically 'OK' transistor amp, compared to a basically 'OK' valve amp). Saying it 'sounds better' when its clearly distorting the sound compared to the original is just wrong. Simply say you prefer the sound, its not an absolute and its clearly subjective.

And my brother in law lives in Cheshire - small world innit?

only a few thousand miles across...



--
Spyros lair: http://www.mnementh.co.uk/ |||| Maintainer: arm26 linux

Do not meddle in the affairs of Dragons, for you are tasty and good with
ketchup.

"Ian Molton" wrote


Ok, it looks like a point is being missed.


****ing with rain today so it looks like Ill have to spend the day farting
around with my kit and posting more bollox on the group! Ho hum.....

(Who knows? - Perhaps I'll get some floor space back today!)


Given you already know you cant *measure* 'quality', which is your
subjective views on a systems sound, there is only one way to 'rate' an
amp, and that is to determine how accurately it can reproduce a waveform
on its output that differs only in amplitude from its input (into any
given speakers). There is simply nothing else to measure. All else is,
completely, utterly subjective.


Agreed.



Thus when people talk about how good a piece of kit is relative to any
other, they *must* talk in terms of this accuracy, as to compare
subjective opinions of the kit is just plain meaningless.


Nope - this 'accuracy' you claim is meaningless to (probably) the majority
of people who buy and use amplifiers.


Who knows -
some people may even *like* crossover distortion and class C amps.


Yup, there's no accounting for taste......



The 'valve' vs 'solid state' argument, is, thus, completely moot - the
only measure you can apply is that above, and so you cannot claim an amp
with an inferior output (in those terms) is better.


Depends what you mean 'better' - AFAIAC, if I prefer the sound of a system
with a particular amp in it then it follows that amp is 'better' for me.



wether you like one amp better or not is irrelevant in such a
comparison. Heck, many people choose their amp and speakers based on
their size, or even less tangible traits such as 'coolness'.


Or even with glowing feet which change colour as the temperature rises....



Who TF gives a rat's arse about 'accurate reproduction' if it ain't
*musical*?

Well, Im sure you'll be the first to admit that the best possible sound is
obtained from sitting in front of the musicians.


No. Mistake No.1 with the 'accurists' is to *presume* that 'music consumers'
like me are trying to re-create the real experience. Wrong and futile, no
matter kit you use. Turn up the wick as high as you like, a blast from the
equivalent *real* instrument in your listening room will blow the kit away.
(Been there, done that dozens of times....)


Thus, a 100% accurate reproduction will sound 100% like the real thing.


Correct but meaningless.



Of course if you like to turn the bass up (effectively distorting the
signal) then you may CHOOSE to rate the system as 110% as good as the
original, but you can hardly claim your listening preference is more musical
than the original musicians.


Read my posts - you will be hard put to find I've made any 'claims'
whatsoever, omly expressed my own (clear) preference from time to time.



(unless you listen to something like britney spears or summat)

- I'm in the business of entertaining myself, not supplying
myself with fekkin' laboratory data!

Ditto, which is why, when watching that scene in LoTR where sauron
'explodes' I turn my tone controls from 'neutral' to 'thundering bass'.


Hmmm, thanks for the spoiler! (I ain't sinnit yet!)


Im not about to claim I made the soundtrack more, um, musical, though...

If you like the valve sound, you might as well be honest and admit
you like a good gob of distortion,

Be 'honest'??? What is it with all you SS 'purists'? You want us
valvey types to break down in some sort of confessional hysteria about
our'weaknesses'???

No. not really. Unless it turns you on or something ;-)

just stop saying its 'better' or 'more musical' please (bear in mind this
applies to any nonlinear system, not just nonlinear valve amps).


Another thing with you SS accurist pedants is that you're pretty good at
trying to lay down the law! This is a general audio group which (as I have
said before) caters for any audio gear from MP3 'wris****ches' to recording
studio kit and as such is open to people with differing tastes to express
opinions and state their own preferences. So stop saying 'stop saying'......


You might like it better, but unless it sounds more like the original than
another system, more musical it aint.

Here, have these on me - ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '



On a slightly different track... There is a point to be made in that some
recordings 'sound' is so utterly 'classic' and 'well known' that its
accepted that the recording is supposed to sound like that - eg. a lot of
pop and rock that was recorded onto vinyl. People just expect it to sound
like vinyl, and one way of getting that sound is simply to play records (on
a non-linear amp if thats part of the expected sound, too).

:-)

Now, you're starting to 'get it'......

Clue: Most of the music I like was recorded in the 40s/50s/60s/70s and some
in the 80s. There hasn't been anything that springs to mind in the last 20+
years that has interested me on anything other than the radio (and probably
in the car).

Speaking of which, atm I have Radio 2 droning on and I've just realised I
stopped listening to it some while back - what's the betting the SS amp is
out of the rack by lunchtime?

(See? - That's how it works, it's failed to 'engage' me....)



If only they would - the reality is that they usually come full-on in
some sort of 'apocryphal' way trying desparately to make us see the
'error of our ways'. (I think they feel threatened...)

If you would use words like 'linear' instead of 'SS' or 'sounds better to
me' instead of 'its more musical' I suspect you'd get a much less hostile
reaction.


Again with the *instructions*. How TF can anyone make claims about an amps
'linearity' (a subjective phrase if ever there was one) if they don't know
its characteristics? Wot an utterly meaningless phrase that is - it might
serve to describe the difference between two amps on the lab bench but it
means SFA to anyone in the real world. To say 'I like my amp because it is
linear' conveys less information than someone saying 'I like my amp because
it makes my balls tingle'.......



just don't try telling me SS (amps) sound better
because they don't AFAIAC!! OK?

In many cases the only measurable quantity is better in the SS amp (is
seems its easier to design a basically 'OK' transistor amp, compared to a
basically 'OK' valve amp). Saying it 'sounds better' when its clearly
distorting the sound compared to the original is just wrong.


Sez who? I, for one, use my audio gear to produce an 'end product' - I'm not
try to recreate anything and don't get hung up on the nth degree of
accuracy. I select kit only on the basis that I like that product, you want
to call it names that's your problem.

AFAIC, Lionel Hampton (to name but a few) sounds 'dead right' on my kit -
he might have sounded like **** in real life....

Get the idea?..... ;-)



Simply say you prefer the sound, its not an absolute


The only 'absolute' in this life is death....


and its clearly subjective.


Of course it is, isn't everything?

Another clue: If you get stopped for speeding, just ask the fuzz when was
the last time they had the radar gun calibrated.....

;-)

(Accurists! - Don'tcha just love 'em......!!)

"Ian Molton" wrote


Ok, it looks like a point is being missed.


****ing with rain today so it looks like Ill have to spend the day farting
around with my kit and posting more bollox on the group! Ho hum.....

(Who knows? - Perhaps I'll get some floor space back today!)


Given you already know you cant *measure* 'quality', which is your
subjective views on a systems sound, there is only one way to 'rate' an
amp, and that is to determine how accurately it can reproduce a waveform
on its output that differs only in amplitude from its input (into any
given speakers). There is simply nothing else to measure. All else is,
completely, utterly subjective.


Agreed.



Thus when people talk about how good a piece of kit is relative to any
other, they *must* talk in terms of this accuracy, as to compare
subjective opinions of the kit is just plain meaningless.


Nope - this 'accuracy' you claim is meaningless to (probably) the majority
of people who buy and use amplifiers.


Who knows -
some people may even *like* crossover distortion and class C amps.


Yup, there's no accounting for taste......



The 'valve' vs 'solid state' argument, is, thus, completely moot - the
only measure you can apply is that above, and so you cannot claim an amp
with an inferior output (in those terms) is better.


Depends what you mean 'better' - AFAIAC, if I prefer the sound of a system
with a particular amp in it then it follows that amp is 'better' for me.



wether you like one amp better or not is irrelevant in such a
comparison. Heck, many people choose their amp and speakers based on
their size, or even less tangible traits such as 'coolness'.


Or even with glowing feet which change colour as the temperature rises....



Who TF gives a rat's arse about 'accurate reproduction' if it ain't
*musical*?

Well, Im sure you'll be the first to admit that the best possible sound is
obtained from sitting in front of the musicians.


No. Mistake No.1 with the 'accurists' is to *presume* that 'music consumers'
like me are trying to re-create the real experience. Wrong and futile, no
matter kit you use. Turn up the wick as high as you like, a blast from the
equivalent *real* instrument in your listening room will blow the kit away.
(Been there, done that dozens of times....)


Thus, a 100% accurate reproduction will sound 100% like the real thing.


Correct but meaningless.



Of course if you like to turn the bass up (effectively distorting the
signal) then you may CHOOSE to rate the system as 110% as good as the
original, but you can hardly claim your listening preference is more musical
than the original musicians.


Read my posts - you will be hard put to find I've made any 'claims'
whatsoever, omly expressed my own (clear) preference from time to time.



(unless you listen to something like britney spears or summat)

- I'm in the business of entertaining myself, not supplying
myself with fekkin' laboratory data!

Ditto, which is why, when watching that scene in LoTR where sauron
'explodes' I turn my tone controls from 'neutral' to 'thundering bass'.


Hmmm, thanks for the spoiler! (I ain't sinnit yet!)


Im not about to claim I made the soundtrack more, um, musical, though...

If you like the valve sound, you might as well be honest and admit
you like a good gob of distortion,

Be 'honest'??? What is it with all you SS 'purists'? You want us
valvey types to break down in some sort of confessional hysteria about
our'weaknesses'???

No. not really. Unless it turns you on or something ;-)

just stop saying its 'better' or 'more musical' please (bear in mind this
applies to any nonlinear system, not just nonlinear valve amps).


Another thing with you SS accurist pedants is that you're pretty good at
trying to lay down the law! This is a general audio group which (as I have
said before) caters for any audio gear from MP3 'wris****ches' to recording
studio kit and as such is open to people with differing tastes to express
opinions and state their own preferences. So stop saying 'stop saying'......


You might like it better, but unless it sounds more like the original than
another system, more musical it aint.

Here, have these on me - ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '



On a slightly different track... There is a point to be made in that some
recordings 'sound' is so utterly 'classic' and 'well known' that its
accepted that the recording is supposed to sound like that - eg. a lot of
pop and rock that was recorded onto vinyl. People just expect it to sound
like vinyl, and one way of getting that sound is simply to play records (on
a non-linear amp if thats part of the expected sound, too).

:-)

Now, you're starting to 'get it'......

Clue: Most of the music I like was recorded in the 40s/50s/60s/70s and some
in the 80s. There hasn't been anything that springs to mind in the last 20+
years that has interested me on anything other than the radio (and probably
in the car).

Speaking of which, atm I have Radio 2 droning on and I've just realised I
stopped listening to it some while back - what's the betting the SS amp is
out of the rack by lunchtime?

(See? - That's how it works, it's failed to 'engage' me....)



If only they would - the reality is that they usually come full-on in
some sort of 'apocryphal' way trying desparately to make us see the
'error of our ways'. (I think they feel threatened...)

If you would use words like 'linear' instead of 'SS' or 'sounds better to
me' instead of 'its more musical' I suspect you'd get a much less hostile
reaction.


Again with the *instructions*. How TF can anyone make claims about an amps
'linearity' (a subjective phrase if ever there was one) if they don't know
its characteristics? Wot an utterly meaningless phrase that is - it might
serve to describe the difference between two amps on the lab bench but it
means SFA to anyone in the real world. To say 'I like my amp because it is
linear' conveys less information than someone saying 'I like my amp because
it makes my balls tingle'.......



just don't try telling me SS (amps) sound better
because they don't AFAIAC!! OK?

In many cases the only measurable quantity is better in the SS amp (is
seems its easier to design a basically 'OK' transistor amp, compared to a
basically 'OK' valve amp). Saying it 'sounds better' when its clearly
distorting the sound compared to the original is just wrong.


Sez who? I, for one, use my audio gear to produce an 'end product' - I'm not
try to recreate anything and don't get hung up on the nth degree of
accuracy. I select kit only on the basis that I like that product, you want
to call it names that's your problem.

AFAIC, Lionel Hampton (to name but a few) sounds 'dead right' on my kit -
he might have sounded like **** in real life....

Get the idea?..... ;-)



Simply say you prefer the sound, its not an absolute


The only 'absolute' in this life is death....


and its clearly subjective.


Of course it is, isn't everything?

Another clue: If you get stopped for speeding, just ask the fuzz when was
the last time they had the radar gun calibrated.....

;-)

(Accurists! - Don'tcha just love 'em......!!)

snip
Well, Im sure you'll be the first to admit that the best possible sound is
obtained from sitting in front of the musicians.

Thus, a 100% accurate reproduction will sound 100% like the real thing.

Unless the hall has poor sound, the PA is off or the band is just plain
bored (or crap).... I've been to all of the above and have thought "jeez -
I wish I had stayed in and put a record on!"

But otherwise YES YES YES - couldn't agree more

David

snip
Well, Im sure you'll be the first to admit that the best possible sound is
obtained from sitting in front of the musicians.

Thus, a 100% accurate reproduction will sound 100% like the real thing.

Unless the hall has poor sound, the PA is off or the band is just plain
bored (or crap).... I've been to all of the above and have thought "jeez -
I wish I had stayed in and put a record on!"

But otherwise YES YES YES - couldn't agree more

David