Keith G writes

"Nicolas Hodges" wrote in message
...
I need to replace my analogue tuner (Denon TU260 Mk1) which has died
following damage while in storage. I was going to simply go for a MkII,
but noticed that there are a lot of Arcam tuners around second-hand
(mostly T61). I found four around £150 and would stretch to that if it
represented a major step up. Does it?

Not in my book.

Thanks.

I have yet to hear a tuner that is better than my £20 Luxman.

Not wanting to be facetious, but what else have you heard? (I was just
offered a mid-range Magnum Dynalab for £450 for example...)

re aerial: I am getting someone round to do sort it out. Are all FM
aerials the same? (I am 20 miles from a big transmitter.)

re Ebay: I'd prefer something new, so the Denon mkII at Richer (£85)
sounds good to me.
--
Nic

"Nicolas Hodges" wrote in message
...
Keith G writes

"Nicolas Hodges" wrote in message
...
I need to replace my analogue tuner (Denon TU260 Mk1) which has died
following damage while in storage. I was going to simply go for a MkII,
but noticed that there are a lot of Arcam tuners around second-hand
(mostly T61). I found four around £150 and would stretch to that if it
represented a major step up. Does it?

Not in my book.

Thanks.

I have yet to hear a tuner that is better than my £20 Luxman.

Not wanting to be facetious, but what else have you heard?


Many - *only yesterday* I listened to a Trio (Kenwood) KT-917 and Sony
STD777ES in the same house and would not swap my Lux for either of them - to
give you a clue, the plonker who owns them was trying to demonstrate them
with Classic FM (and DAB on the Sony)..... :-)


(I was just
offered a mid-range Magnum Dynalab for £450 for example...)


OK, haven't heard one of them but if you're a bit prone to 'names' then how
about these:

Sugden DT28 on 5710478782 @ £77 atm

Marantz ST-17 on 5710517402 @ £190 atm.....

Denon TU-260L on 5710060490 @ £5 atm....

(and another on 5710547727 @ £10 atm)

Sony STD 777ES on 5710670853 @ £155 atm...

or a Technics STGT1000 on 5710556855 @ £160 atm (had one of these - gave it
away!)

- all with less than a day to go!

(personally, I would also be looking at the Armstrong duo on 5710087956...)



re aerial: I am getting someone round to do sort it out. Are all FM
aerials the same?


No.


(I am 20 miles from a big transmitter.)

.... can be a mixed blessing..... ;-)


re Ebay: I'd prefer something new, so the Denon mkII at Richer (£85)
sounds good to me.


Oki doki, it's your money......

In article , Keith G
writes

"Nicolas Hodges" wrote in message
...
Keith G writes

"Nicolas Hodges" wrote in message
...
I need to replace my analogue tuner (Denon TU260 Mk1) which has died
following damage while in storage. I was going to simply go for a MkII,
but noticed that there are a lot of Arcam tuners around second-hand
(mostly T61). I found four around £150 and would stretch to that if it
represented a major step up. Does it?

Not in my book.

Thanks.

I have yet to hear a tuner that is better than my £20 Luxman.

Not wanting to be facetious, but what else have you heard?


Many - *only yesterday* I listened to a Trio (Kenwood) KT-917 and Sony
STD777ES in the same house and would not swap my Lux for either of them - to
give you a clue, the plonker who owns them was trying to demonstrate them
with Classic FM (and DAB on the Sony)..... :-)

Christ!, Who's that who's got the KT917?, is he interested in selling
it?.

BTW what did you do for a signal Keith;?......


(I was just
offered a mid-range Magnum Dynalab for £450 for example...)


OK, haven't heard one of them but if you're a bit prone to 'names' then how
about these:

Sugden DT28 on 5710478782 @ £77 atm

Marantz ST-17 on 5710517402 @ £190 atm.....

Denon TU-260L on 5710060490 @ £5 atm....

(and another on 5710547727 @ £10 atm)

Sony STD 777ES on 5710670853 @ £155 atm...

or a Technics STGT1000 on 5710556855 @ £160 atm (had one of these - gave it
away!)

- all with less than a day to go!

(personally, I would also be looking at the Armstrong duo on 5710087956...)



re aerial: I am getting someone round to do sort it out. Are all FM
aerials the same?


No.


(I am 20 miles from a big transmitter.)

... can be a mixed blessing..... ;-)


re Ebay: I'd prefer something new, so the Denon mkII at Richer (£85)
sounds good to me.


Oki doki, it's your money......



I'd still got for the MK2 Denon or a REVOX B261 or similar or an
Audiolab T8000 if you can find one
--
Tony Sayer

"tony sayer" wrote


Christ!, Who's that who's got the KT917?, is he interested in selling
it?.


Answered direct, but it's the geezer whose DM2As I'm auditioning and I bet
he ain't selling it....!! ;-)


BTW what did you do for a signal Keith;?......


Just the same yard of wet string you've seen, which gives me this sort of
thing:


http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/keit.../radioclip.mp3


Not a particularly impressive piece of recording (much chopped up to keep
the filesize down) but gives you an idea of what my £20 Lux sounds like and
reminds me that I've heard a lot of poor voiceovers and interviews lately -
with a very 'boggy' sound (as in recorded in a public bog) that I get with
my own efforts at open mic recordings.....


.......and also raises the issue that I *really* will have to something about
a proper aerial before it's too damn late - when either FM or I will get
switched off!!

When FM radio (2 in the evenings often and 3 most of the time) hits the
spot, which it frequently does, it really is the best 'audio' you can get
and is altogether better than any TV or digital sound!

(The pictures are better as well......)

In article , Keith G wrote:

When FM radio (2 in the evenings often and 3 most of the time) hits the
spot, which it frequently does, it really is the best 'audio' you can get
and is altogether better than any TV or digital sound!

I agree entirely on the superb quality of analogue FM broadcasts when
they do hit the spot.

However, on the subject of "better than any ... digital sound" sorry to
quibble but I believe the UK national "analogue FM" transmtter network
is fed with digital NICAM-encoded content. Assuming I'm right, even
though the transmission is analogue FM the source is still digital.
And what's more it's just 14-bit digital at 32 ksamples/sec before we
even get to the issue of 10-bit NICAM transcoding.

Back to BBC Radio 3 FM, I think the signal is compressed to prevent
over-deviation and keep low-level detail above the transmission system's
noise floor. It certainly sounds "warm" to me compared to DAB (yes I
know about the arguments but at least R3 gets some bandwidth). This does
not detract from my keen enjoyment of the best of R3 on FM, BTW.

--
John Phillips

"John Phillips" wrote
In article , Keith G wrote:

When FM radio (2 in the evenings often and 3 most of the time) hits the
spot, which it frequently does, it really is the best 'audio' you can get
and is altogether better than any TV or digital sound!

I agree entirely on the superb quality of analogue FM broadcasts when
they do hit the spot.

However, on the subject of "better than any ... digital sound" sorry to
quibble but I believe the UK national "analogue FM" transmtter network
is fed with digital NICAM-encoded content. Assuming I'm right, even
though the transmission is analogue FM the source is still digital.
And what's more it's just 14-bit digital at 32 ksamples/sec before we
even get to the issue of 10-bit NICAM transcoding.

32ks/s (==16kHz bandwidth)? Isn't FM capable of up to 19kHz? ISTR hearing
that, or at least, that the difference signal (?) is stuck up 19kHz above
the main signal.


Martin
--
M.A.Poyser Tel.: 07967 110890
Manchester, U.K. http://www.fleetie.demon.co.uk

In article , Fleetie wrote:
"John Phillips" wrote
In article , Keith G wrote:

When FM radio (2 in the evenings often and 3 most of the time) hits the
spot, which it frequently does, it really is the best 'audio' you can get
and is altogether better than any TV or digital sound!

I agree entirely on the superb quality of analogue FM broadcasts when
they do hit the spot.

However, on the subject of "better than any ... digital sound" sorry to
quibble but I believe the UK national "analogue FM" transmtter network
is fed with digital NICAM-encoded content. Assuming I'm right, even
though the transmission is analogue FM the source is still digital.
And what's more it's just 14-bit digital at 32 ksamples/sec before we
even get to the issue of 10-bit NICAM transcoding.

32ks/s (==16kHz bandwidth)? Isn't FM capable of up to 19kHz? ISTR hearing
that, or at least, that the difference signal (?) is stuck up 19kHz above
the main signal.

You are right about there being a pilot tone at 19 kHz and the stereo
difference signal above this centred on 38 kHz but the audio bandwidth
of FM is only 15 kHz (you need margin for anti-alias filtering
relative to the 16 kHz max for 32 ksample/s). See for example
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../radio.html#c2

--
John Phillips

On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 17:13:33 GMT, "Fleetie"
wrote:

"John Phillips" wrote
In article , Keith G wrote:

When FM radio (2 in the evenings often and 3 most of the time) hits the
spot, which it frequently does, it really is the best 'audio' you can get
and is altogether better than any TV or digital sound!

I agree entirely on the superb quality of analogue FM broadcasts when
they do hit the spot.

However, on the subject of "better than any ... digital sound" sorry to
quibble but I believe the UK national "analogue FM" transmtter network
is fed with digital NICAM-encoded content. Assuming I'm right, even
though the transmission is analogue FM the source is still digital.
And what's more it's just 14-bit digital at 32 ksamples/sec before we
even get to the issue of 10-bit NICAM transcoding.

32ks/s (==16kHz bandwidth)? Isn't FM capable of up to 19kHz? ISTR hearing
that, or at least, that the difference signal (?) is stuck up 19kHz above
the main signal.

Yes, it is, which means a 'brick-wall' filter from 15kHz to suppress
the pilot tone, since brick walls weren't so high back in the '50s!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

In article , Fleetie
writes
"John Phillips" wrote
In article , Keith G wrote:

When FM radio (2 in the evenings often and 3 most of the time) hits the
spot, which it frequently does, it really is the best 'audio' you can get
and is altogether better than any TV or digital sound!

I agree entirely on the superb quality of analogue FM broadcasts when
they do hit the spot.

However, on the subject of "better than any ... digital sound" sorry to
quibble but I believe the UK national "analogue FM" transmtter network
is fed with digital NICAM-encoded content. Assuming I'm right, even
though the transmission is analogue FM the source is still digital.
And what's more it's just 14-bit digital at 32 ksamples/sec before we
even get to the issue of 10-bit NICAM transcoding.

32ks/s (==16kHz bandwidth)? Isn't FM capable of up to 19kHz? ISTR hearing
that, or at least, that the difference signal (?) is stuck up 19kHz above
the main signal.


Martin

No its rolled off very sharply at just over 15 kHz as the stereo pilot
tone sits on 19 kHz which is doubled and forms the 38 kHz basis for the
"stereo difference" signal.....
--
Tony Sayer

In article , John Phillips
writes
In article , Keith G wrote:

When FM radio (2 in the evenings often and 3 most of the time) hits the
spot, which it frequently does, it really is the best 'audio' you can get
and is altogether better than any TV or digital sound!

I agree entirely on the superb quality of analogue FM broadcasts when
they do hit the spot.

However, on the subject of "better than any ... digital sound" sorry to
quibble but I believe the UK national "analogue FM" transmtter network
is fed with digital NICAM-encoded content. Assuming I'm right, even
though the transmission is analogue FM the source is still digital.
And what's more it's just 14-bit digital at 32 ksamples/sec before we
even get to the issue of 10-bit NICAM transcoding.

Which is quite OK for the 15 K that is required for the FM system. In
fact its referred to as NICAM "728" which is give or take the odd bit
the bitrate in use. Most all modern FM modulators are very high spec'ed
units these days, so not too surprising that the FM signal is as good as
it is

Course it can suffer from distortions added in via multipath etc so
that's why you still need a good aerial system to get the best from it.

If the BBC saw digital transmission as a real high quality format they'd
declare DAB to be a low quality "quantity over quality" system and make
digital satellite really motor. They could transmit linear PCM over that
and hardly notice it, they could have even used 256 K/bits like some
German broadcasters do, but we're stuck with 192 so digital quality has
a wholly different meaning when applied to broadcast

Back to BBC Radio 3 FM, I think the signal is compressed to prevent
over-deviation and keep low-level detail above the transmission system's
noise floor. It certainly sounds "warm" to me compared to DAB (yes I
know about the arguments but at least R3 gets some bandwidth). This does
not detract from my keen enjoyment of the best of R3 on FM, BTW.

Sometimes the processor settings do alter as the day wears on.....


--
Tony Sayer