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Re Valve amps
Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if I
would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to wait for it to warm up every time I need it? cheers |
Re Valve amps
In article ,
StaffBull wrote: Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if I would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to wait for it to warm up every time I need it? Valves - unlike transistors - have a finite life. And according to some, modern valves have a shorter life than once was the case. I'd personally not trust many valve amps to be left on unattended - I've seen too many go up in smoke. And certainly not a 'budget' valve amp. -- *Hard work has a future payoff. Laziness pays off NOW. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Re Valve amps
I'd personally not trust many valve amps to be left on unattended - I've seen
too many go up in smoke. And certainly not a 'budget' valve amp. Can't say it's ever happened to me, but the potential is there I suppose. Mind, these days there should be fuses in strategic places. I tend to turn my amp on in the morning and turn it off at night. With valve rectifiers there's a nice slow warm up, so not much harm is done turning the amp off and on if you prefer to do it more frequently. Valves for the most part are not too expensive - cheaper probably than the batteries a household uses up in the same time span. So far they have kept their value so spares can even be something of an investment if you choose wisely and buy at cheap prices. === Andy Evans === Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com Audio, music and health pages and interesting links. |
Re Valve amps
"StaffBull" wrote in message ... Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if I would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to wait for it to warm up every time I need it? **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use. There are several reasons for this: * Leaving an amp switched on, accelerates wear and tear on several parts. In SS amps, this means electrolytic caps. In valve amps, this means valves and electrolytic caps. * Leaving the amp switched on, leaves the amp open to line surges and spikes, which may damage equipment. * Leaving the amp switched on is not environmentally sensitive. Tell me again why you would buy an amp, without first listening to it? Tell my why you think this is a good idea? -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
Re Valve amps
On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:39:29 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote: "StaffBull" wrote in message ... Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if I would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to wait for it to warm up every time I need it? **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use. Hooey. There are several reasons for this: * Leaving an amp switched on, accelerates wear and tear on several parts. In SS amps, this means electrolytic caps. In valve amps, this means valves and electrolytic caps. Hooey. If it's not a class A amp, or otherwise warm inside, it puts less strain on the caps to leave them switched on. Start-up surges are a major cause of cap failure. My Audiolab 8000P has been switched on for about eight years, and works just fine. I don't leave the Krell switched on, because it's a true class A design, and pulls 300 watts from the wall at idle! * Leaving the amp switched on, leaves the amp open to line surges and spikes, which may damage equipment. Only badly designed equipment, and not everywhere has such crappy mains that this is an issue. * Leaving the amp switched on is not environmentally sensitive. Neither is farting, but I doubt it's a major issue. Tell me again why you would buy an amp, without first listening to it? Tell my why you think this is a good idea? Seems like a bad idea - much like attempting to drive any decent speaker with a cheap valve amp, when the same money would buy you a sonically transparent SS amp. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Re Valve amps
In article , Trevor Wilson
wrote: "StaffBull" wrote in message ... Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if I would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to wait for it to warm up every time I need it? **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use. There are several reasons for this: * Leaving an amp switched on, accelerates wear and tear on several parts. In SS amps, this means electrolytic caps. I would quibble a bit with this. :-) IIUC Electrolytic caps also deteriorate if *not* used for prolonged periods. Provided they are used well within their ratings, being charged up means they should have a 'self healing' tendency for minor electronic leakages. Hence, left unused they may show a fall in capacity and rise in leakage current. This should recover with use, though. Above said, the 'goop' that is inside them does deteriorate with age, use, and temperature. Hence using them does wear them out. Should be quite a slow process if they are well built and cautiously rated, though. FWIW I just turn on the amps before use, and turn them off afterwards. Mind you, I am happy with SS amps, and don't normally notice any signs of 'warming up' over a long period. With a valve amp, I'd probably be inclined to switch them on 10 mins before use, and off after use. Dislike leaving things like this powered up unattended due to the risk of failures. Small risk probability, but the 'cost' of a house fire can be quite large! Prefer peace of mind. Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
Re Valve amps
"Trevor Wilson" wrote **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use. There are several reasons snipped but agreed with entirely Tell me again why you would buy an amp, without first listening to it? Tell my why you think this is a good idea? OK, Trevor, you're not getting a nibble so I'll respond: Firstly, as the OP is in N Wales I think you should be a little less sheepish, ram your point home a bit harder and qualify your question thus: 'Tell my why ewe think this is a good idea, if ewe don't hear the amp first ewe could get the wool pulled over your eyes and someone will fleece ewe...' (Shear common sense for an Ozzie, I would'a thought...??) :-) Secondly, it is not easy to get an audition of valve gear in the UK without going to an 'audio boutique' which are few and far between and where the prices are sky-high in any case. Hence a lot of people, looking to get into valves are 'taking a flyer' and buying from eBay, the Net, mail order and secondhand. This is the reason a lot of valvies (me included) have been willing to invite people in and hear our own valve gear where they can get a good listen without any obligation to spend money. This has been very successful for me and I have had a number of visits that have all been very pleasant and have actually ended up with one or two people buying valve gear. At any rate, no-one has told me yet that they didn't like valves!! (I have only had one instance where someone appears to have been a bit two-faced/indiscrete and that wasn't even a 'valve auditioner'!) However, having said all that, I for one am a becoming a bit reluctant to recommend valves to all and sundry as: 1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular (as they have with secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more expensive in charity shops in the UK than it was a couple of years ago....), NOS valves will disappear more quickly and the increasing popularity will encourage more crap onto the market. (Offsetting this, of course, is that the same popularity will ensure better continuity of supply generally....) 2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear - normally beyond the scope of 'box openers' if anything goes wrong. OK if a support structure establishes itself - I already know one UK valve amp builder who is doing nicely out of fettling cheap, new foreign amps or, as in the case of our own Fleetie, you are able to get the spanners out if anything goes tits-up which, of course, it can/probably will at some point..... 3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves (heat, voltages and even the greater weight of valve amps) will result in some divot getting badly hurt and a great raft of legislation swinging into place to control everything that will sweep away the good guys with the bad guys like it's doing with everything else these days! The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for various reasons mentioned above) but I gotta say finally that I have yet to hear a valve amp that didn't comprehensively **** all over most ss amps I've heard in terms of 'listenability' - ie where the 'music' counts more than the 'sound quality'...... (My 2p only....) |
Re Valve amps
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:39:29 GMT, "Trevor Wilson" wrote: "StaffBull" wrote in message ... Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if I would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to wait for it to warm up every time I need it? **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use. Hooey. Not hooey - all electrical items (without a built in timer needing stanby current) should be switched off if not in use, including amplifiers. (Ask your insurers.....) My Audiolab 8000P has been switched on for about eight years, and works just fine. I don't leave the Krell switched on, because it's a true class A design, and pulls 300 watts from the wall at idle! Presumably the Krell doesn't suffer from being switched off then? Or does it take that bit longer to strike an arc.....??? ;-) |
Re Valve amps
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:39:29 GMT, "Trevor Wilson" wrote: "StaffBull" wrote in message ... Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if I would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to wait for it to warm up every time I need it? **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use. Hooey. Not hooey - all electrical items (without a built in timer needing stanby current) should be switched off if not in use, including amplifiers. (Ask your insurers.....) My Audiolab 8000P has been switched on for about eight years, and works just fine. I don't leave the Krell switched on, because it's a true class A design, and pulls 300 watts from the wall at idle! Presumably the Krell doesn't suffer from being switched off then? Or does it take that bit longer to strike an arc.....??? ;-) ...with carbon rods.... for home cinema. ;-) |
Re Valve amps
Hello Keith - I'm not sure about some of what you write he
1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular Prices for new production Russian, Czech and Chinese valves are pretty static, and there is a mountain of common valves out there (viz. guitar amp and hifi models like ECC***, 6L6GT, EL34 etc). Several mountains of less common valves, to the point that dealers just junk a lot of types to save rental on keeping them. (as they have with secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more expensive in charity shops in the UK than it was a couple of years ago....) ?????? all my information is that common vinyl, e.g. classical orchestral, is rock bottom. Jazz and pop is different, since this is now 'collectors' rather than consumer. Just try and sell a collection of 1,000 classical LPs (I have such a collection to sell - please give me 10 times what they were worth a couple of years ago!) NOS valves will disappear more quickly Remember that vast quantities are being hoarded by valve users. And anyway, new production (EH, JJ, EI, Svetlana etc) is getting better and better and new types are being manufactured every year. This year sees, for instance, the 7591 and 7868 from Eh and JJ, plus new and greatly improved Chinese 845s. and the increasing popularity will encourage more crap onto the market Well, so far, more good stuff has come onto the market including some very fine new valves as above. (Offsetting this, of course, is that the same popularity will ensure better continuity of supply generally....) Agreed 2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear Agreed OK if a support structure establishes itself There is a good support structure - less than before but maybe something like Leica owners or classic car builders. 3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves will result in a great raft of legislation swinging into place Why wouldn't this have happened already in the century or so of valve use? Why would a government even bother with such a small issue these days? I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities, but the sound of valves lives on - musicians love them and use them, and a number of musical listeners, as you say, find they come closest to the sound they find represents the "musical experience". I think digital amps are coming up fast and I'd see the future there rather than in analogue SS. Some digital amps sound rather fine. But valves will live on simply because of the investment people have made in them. I'd bet that when valve equipment becomes rare there will still be a mountain of unused valves out there. Andy === Andy Evans === Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com Audio, music and health pages and interesting links. |
Re Valve amps
"Keith G" wrote in message ... Clipped wooly bit ;-) Secondly, it is not easy to get an audition of valve gear in the UK without going to an 'audio boutique' which are few and far between and where the prices are sky-high in any case. Hence a lot of people, looking to get into valves are 'taking a flyer' and buying from eBay, the Net, mail order and secondhand. This is the reason a lot of valvies (me included) have been willing to invite people in and hear our own valve gear where they can get a good listen without any obligation to spend money. Buying without audition is happening more and more in this neck of the woods (Highlands) as its so easy to move it on via ebay if its not what you wanted and maybe also make a bit of profit on it too if you're lucky. This has been very successful for me and I have had a number of visits that have all been very pleasant and have actually ended up with one or two people buying valve gear. At any rate, no-one has told me yet that they didn't like valves!! (I have only had one instance where someone appears to have been a bit two-faced/indiscrete and that wasn't even a 'valve auditioner'!) Same here, I've had a few folk who've also taken up valves after listening here. However, having said all that, I for one am a becoming a bit reluctant to recommend valves to all and sundry as: 1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular (as they have with secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more expensive in charity shops in the UK than it was a couple of years ago....), NOS valves will disappear more quickly and the increasing popularity will encourage more crap onto the market. (Offsetting this, of course, is that the same popularity will ensure better continuity of supply generally....) It could go the other way i.e. the manufacture of even better more reliable valves - surely with modern technology the NOS valves could be copied and improved upon? 2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear - normally beyond the scope of 'box openers' if anything goes wrong. OK if a support structure establishes itself - I already know one UK valve amp builder who is doing nicely out of fettling cheap, new foreign amps or, as in the case of our own Fleetie, you are able to get the spanners out if anything goes tits-up which, of course, it can/probably will at some point..... 3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves (heat, voltages and even the greater weight of valve amps) will result in some divot getting badly hurt and a great raft of legislation swinging into place to control everything that will sweep away the good guys with the bad guys like it's doing with everything else these days! Many tube amps are weighty but don't forget SS amplifiers are also very heavy, the big Krells, ML's etc. My own SS amp weighs in at 125 lbs. The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for various reasons mentioned above) but I gotta say finally that I have yet to hear a valve amp that didn't comprehensively **** all over most ss amps I've heard in terms of 'listenability' - ie where the 'music' counts more than the 'sound quality'...... (My 2p only....) Make that 4p Mike |
Re Valve amps
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:49:18 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:39:29 GMT, "Trevor Wilson" wrote: "StaffBull" wrote in message ... Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if I would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to wait for it to warm up every time I need it? **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use. Hooey. Not hooey - all electrical items (without a built in timer needing stanby current) should be switched off if not in use, including amplifiers. (Ask your insurers.....) Insurers are concerned with fire risk, not capacitor failure. This is a vexed question among audiophiles, for some mysterious reason, but out in the real world of industrial electronics, most equipment is kept permanently powered up. Anything with a valve in it (including CRTs) shouldn't be permanently powered up, but that's virtually no real-world equipment nowadays, aside from some radio transmitters. So, the original poster should switch off his valve amp, but we sensible folk can leave our class AB SS amps permanently switched on. My Audiolab 8000P has been switched on for about eight years, and works just fine. I don't leave the Krell switched on, because it's a true class A design, and pulls 300 watts from the wall at idle! Presumably the Krell doesn't suffer from being switched off then? Or does it take that bit longer to strike an arc.....??? It's been working happily for about fifteen years, but it pretty much *defines* overengineering! For instance, it's only rated at 50 watts into 8 ohms, but it delivers 195 watts continuous into 4 ohms, both channels driven. Basically, I'm just too mean to pay the bill for a constant 300 watt drain! Naturally, the excess heat isn't a problem in the UK..................... -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Re Valve amps
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 14:51:57 +0100, "Mike Gilmour"
wrote: "Keith G" wrote in message ... "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... My Audiolab 8000P has been switched on for about eight years, and works just fine. I don't leave the Krell switched on, because it's a true class A design, and pulls 300 watts from the wall at idle! Presumably the Krell doesn't suffer from being switched off then? Or does it take that bit longer to strike an arc.....??? ;-) ...with carbon rods.... for home cinema. ;-) I wouldn't recommend Krell AV gear to anyone - overpriced and from a company that now has a truly **** reputation for customer care. :-( -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Re Valve amps
"Andy Evans" wrote in message ... Hello Keith - I'm not sure about some of what you write he OK, a quick reply - I'm on my way out. (In more ways than one! :-) 1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular Prices for new production Russian, Czech and Chinese valves are pretty static, and there is a mountain of common valves out there (viz. guitar amp and hifi models like ECC***, 6L6GT, EL34 etc). Several mountains of less common valves, to the point that dealers just junk a lot of types to save rental on keeping them. Facter life - as demand increases, so does prices. Jim Fish of Wilson Valves said (all 'anecdotal' this - check me out by all means, but don't hold me to it) that he doesn't handle KT88s any more as the prices has gone through the roof and he does/didn't want to get involved..... (as they have with secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more expensive in charity shops in the UK than it was a couple of years ago....) ?????? all my information is that common vinyl, e.g. classical orchestral, is rock bottom. Jazz and pop is different, since this is now 'collectors' rather than consumer. Just try and sell a collection of 1,000 classical LPs (I have such a collection to sell - please give me 10 times what they were worth a couple of years ago!) 2 days ago, vinyl prices in Sue Ryder, Camden - Max Freakin' Bygraves was £6.50 (that's actually a 100 times more than it used to be), Frank Sinatra was/is £7.50 and a few Heavy Metal at these prices. A few Classical at £1.98 - most Classical here were 3 or 4 for a quid a while back! Local prices? - No idea, I stopped looking a year ago! (I get 98% of my vinyl from eBay - you can't beat it!) NOS valves will disappear more quickly Remember that vast quantities are being hoarded by valve users. And anyway, new production (EH, JJ, EI, Svetlana etc) is getting better and better and new types are being manufactured every year. Yes, but I've been told 'when these xxx (Mullards, usually) are gone, I doubt if I'll be able to get any more....' on numerous occasions! (Don't get me wrong - I'll take a 12AX7EH in lieu of a Mullard any day!) This year sees, for instance, the 7591 and 7868 from Eh and JJ, plus new and greatly improved Chinese 845s. and the increasing popularity will encourage more crap onto the market Well, so far, more good stuff has come onto the market including some very fine new valves as above. Oh aye, it's not all bad news by a long chalk! (Offsetting this, of course, is that the same popularity will ensure better continuity of supply generally....) Agreed 2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear Agreed OK if a support structure establishes itself There is a good support structure - less than before but maybe something like Leica owners or classic car builders. OK, but I mean in the context that it's no good getting a 'VFM/budget' valve amp if you are going to get seen off having it fixed. (Also the cost of getting them shipped about is not insignificant....) 3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves will result in a great raft of legislation swinging into place Why wouldn't this have happened already in the century or so of valve use? Why would a government even bother with such a small issue these days? Chatting with Len Gregory (The Cartridge Man) a year or two back, he was having a bit of a rant about VAT/Maggie Thatcher and some legislation that says (or will say?) that any appliance with a mains lead must be capable of being lifted by that lead. He said 'not likely with a valve amp. is it?' I said that's easy - just use kettle leads! (Placated him a bit ;-) Btw, I asked him if he used valve amps - he said 'yes, of course, nothing else!' like I was daft for asking..... :-) I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities, That's the point, done right we don't have to be. Plenty of people believe the valve (OK, triode then... ;-) to be the ultimate 'audio amplifier' (analogue OR digital) so why should it ever disappear? (What beats a pair of scissors for cutting stuff, eh??) but the sound of valves lives on - musicians love them and use them, and a number of musical listeners, as you say, find they come closest to the sound they find represents the "musical experience". Yep. I think digital amps are coming up fast and I'd see the future there rather than in analogue SS. Some digital amps sound rather fine. But valves will live on simply because of the investment people have made in them. I'd bet that when valve equipment becomes rare there will still be a mountain of unused valves out there. Andy Not as big as the pile of obsolete PCBs....... ;-) |
Re Valve amps
"Mike Gilmour" wrote OK, a lightning response here also: Buying without audition is happening more and more in this neck of the woods (Highlands) as its so easy to move it on via ebay if its not what you wanted and maybe also make a bit of profit on it too if you're lucky. *Exactamento* Same here, I've had a few folk who've also taken up valves after listening here. I've a very nice chap (Iraqi/Turkish descent living in Brussels) ask me a string questions about valves atm - Jeez, if you think *we're* hard done by for valve gear and retail outlets!!! It could go the other way i.e. the manufacture of even better more reliable valves - surely with modern technology the NOS valves could be copied and improved upon? Absolutely, but of little interest to the *real* Classic Valve Boys!! ;-) Many tube amps are weighty but don't forget SS amplifiers are also very heavy, the big Krells, ML's etc. My own SS amp weighs in at 125 lbs. I'd bet that most people being tempted by 'budget' valve amps aren't coming from ss behemoths (some of which are real amps and can sound damn near as good as valves anyway) but from the ****e little 'flyaway' slices of brushed aluminium.... The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for various reasons mentioned above) but I gotta say finally that I have yet to hear a valve amp that didn't comprehensively **** all over most ss amps I've heard in terms of 'listenability' - ie where the 'music' counts more than the 'sound quality'...... (My 2p only....) Make that 4p Mike (It'll take all night to make the price of a pint at this rate!! :-) |
Re Valve amps
as demand increases, so does prices
I don't know if demand is increasing - and remember that a big slice of the market is group gear - and in any case there are just a few 'rarities' like Syl 6SN7s, Amperex ECC83s and Mullard EL34s that are expensive, and those have perfectly good cheap substitutes. People like Jim who spent their lives in valve gear don't like selling at silly prices - goes against their principles. I'd bet that when valve equipment becomes rare there will still be a mountain of unused valves out there Not as big as the pile of obsolete PCBs....... LOL! Mind, Max Bygraves at £6.50. I need to talk this through with my therapist. === Andy Evans === Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com Audio, music and health pages and interesting links. |
Re Valve amps
Andy Evans wrote:
Mind, Max Bygraves at £6.50. I need to talk this through with my therapist. Why, are you worried that you might buy it? -- Wally www.artbywally.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
Re Valve amps
In article ,
Stewart Pinkerton wrote: Anything with a valve in it (including CRTs) shouldn't be permanently powered up, It's not so very long ago that all broadcasting equipment was valve, and plenty was left powered up 24/7. Indeed, a power failure could result in lots of replacements after it was resumed. But that equipment was designed for this task - I'm not convinced el cheapo valve amps are. -- *The most common name in the world is Mohammed * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Re Valve amps
Keith G wrote:
Firstly, as the OP is in N Wales I think you should be a little less sheepish, ram your point home a bit harder and qualify your question thus: 'Tell my why ewe think this is a good idea, if ewe don't hear the amp first ewe could get the wool pulled over your eyes and someone will fleece ewe...' (Shear common sense for an Ozzie, I would'a thought...??) uhm, no ... I think the Kiwis would know more about sheep ... :P The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for ^^^^^^ OI!!! I would be careful with using that kind of language ... |
Re Valve amps
"Andy Evans" wrote in message ... as demand increases, so does prices I don't know if demand is increasing Apparently it is and Svetlana want their 'name' back to meet the increased demand??? (Just gossip - I can't claim that as *fact*....) - and remember that a big slice of the market is group gear - and in any case there are just a few 'rarities' like Syl 6SN7s, Amperex ECC83s and Mullard EL34s that are expensive, and those have perfectly good cheap substitutes. People like Jim who spent their lives in valve gear don't like selling at silly prices - goes against their principles. Quite. Also his prices for Mullard ECC83 remains constant irrespective of his stock levels. Also, also he won't send them 'over the water' for much more money although it would be easy to do and if he gets wind of people profiteering on valves he has let them have at fair prices (on eBay or whatever) he 'blacks' them for life....!! Mind, Max Bygraves at £6.50. I need to talk this through with my therapist. At least there was a quid premium on Frankie! :-) |
Re Valve amps
"Tat Chan" wrote in message ... Keith G wrote: Firstly, as the OP is in N Wales I think you should be a little less sheepish, ram your point home a bit harder and qualify your question thus: 'Tell my why ewe think this is a good idea, if ewe don't hear the amp first ewe could get the wool pulled over your eyes and someone will fleece ewe...' (Shear common sense for an Ozzie, I would'a thought...??) uhm, no ... I think the Kiwis would know more about sheep ... :P OK, go to http://www.dfmg.com.tw/mirron/wool/austflock.html and see "The Australian sheep flock now numbers 138.1million head (at March 1993)." (And that's 10 years old!!!) The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for ^^^^^^ OI!!! I would be careful with using that kind of language ... Sorry - make that *inexpensive* Chinky amps then..... :-) |
Re Valve amps
Keith G wrote:
"Tat Chan" wrote in message ... uhm, no ... I think the Kiwis would know more about sheep ... :P OK, go to http://www.dfmg.com.tw/mirron/wool/austflock.html and see "The Australian sheep flock now numbers 138.1million head (at March 1993)." (And that's 10 years old!!!) I wasn't refering to numbers, just the stereotype down in Oz about Kiwis being, uhm, rather attached to their sheep ... I could go on, but it wouldn't be PC ... ;) The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for ^^^^^^ OI!!! I would be careful with using that kind of language ... Sorry - make that *inexpensive* Chinky amps then..... :-) Hmmm, looks like I stuffed up the formatting of the location of my '^^^^^' characters. Anyway, the original post was meant to convey my objection to the use of the term 'Chinky' |
Re Valve amps
"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message ... In article , Trevor Wilson wrote: "StaffBull" wrote in message ... Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if I would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to wait for it to warm up every time I need it? **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use. There are several reasons for this: * Leaving an amp switched on, accelerates wear and tear on several parts. In SS amps, this means electrolytic caps. I would quibble a bit with this. :-) **Perhaps you don't see as many amps with dried out electros, as I do. IIUC Electrolytic caps also deteriorate if *not* used for prolonged periods. Provided they are used well within their ratings, being charged up means they should have a 'self healing' tendency for minor electronic leakages. Hence, left unused they may show a fall in capacity and rise in leakage current. This should recover with use, though. **Of course. I was assuming that the amp was to be used at least once per month. That is plenty to keep a cap formed. Above said, the 'goop' that is inside them does deteriorate with age, use, and temperature. Hence using them does wear them out. Should be quite a slow process if they are well built and cautiously rated, though. **"Should". Yes. In actual fact, however, not necessarily. Manufacturers are driven to maximise profits. Cheap caps make good sense, in that environment. Very few manufacturers use 100,000 hour rated caps. FWIW I just turn on the amps before use, and turn them off afterwards. Mind you, I am happy with SS amps, and don't normally notice any signs of 'warming up' over a long period. With a valve amp, I'd probably be inclined to switch them on 10 mins before use, and off after use. Dislike leaving things like this powered up unattended due to the risk of failures. Small risk probability, but the 'cost' of a house fire can be quite large! Prefer peace of mind. **Good advice. As usual. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
Re Valve amps
"Keith G" wrote in message ... "Trevor Wilson" wrote **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use. There are several reasons snipped but agreed with entirely Tell me again why you would buy an amp, without first listening to it? Tell my why you think this is a good idea? OK, Trevor, you're not getting a nibble so I'll respond: Firstly, as the OP is in N Wales I think you should be a little less sheepish, ram your point home a bit harder and qualify your question thus: 'Tell my why ewe think this is a good idea, if ewe don't hear the amp first ewe could get the wool pulled over your eyes and someone will fleece ewe...' (Shear common sense for an Ozzie, I would'a thought...??) **Heheh. Yep. :-) Secondly, it is not easy to get an audition of valve gear in the UK without going to an 'audio boutique' which are few and far between and where the prices are sky-high in any case. Hence a lot of people, looking to get into valves are 'taking a flyer' and buying from eBay, the Net, mail order and secondhand. This is the reason a lot of valvies (me included) have been willing to invite people in and hear our own valve gear where they can get a good listen without any obligation to spend money. **Sounds like good, common sense to me. This has been very successful for me and I have had a number of visits that have all been very pleasant and have actually ended up with one or two people buying valve gear. At any rate, no-one has told me yet that they didn't like valves!! (I have only had one instance where someone appears to have been a bit two-faced/indiscrete and that wasn't even a 'valve auditioner'!) However, having said all that, I for one am a becoming a bit reluctant to recommend valves to all and sundry as: 1) The prices will go up as valves become more popular (as they have with secondhand vinyl, which is now about 10 times more expensive in charity shops in the UK than it was a couple of years ago....), NOS valves will disappear more quickly and the increasing popularity will encourage more crap onto the market. (Offsetting this, of course, is that the same popularity will ensure better continuity of supply generally....) **Very possibly. I don't see a major problem, as long as China and Russia manage to keep their production profitable. 2) Valves take a lot more 'work' than ss gear - normally beyond the scope of 'box openers' if anything goes wrong. OK if a support structure establishes itself - I already know one UK valve amp builder who is doing nicely out of fettling cheap, new foreign amps or, as in the case of our own Fleetie, you are able to get the spanners out if anything goes tits-up which, of course, it can/probably will at some point..... 3) There is also the possibility that the greater danger of valves (heat, voltages and even the greater weight of valve amps) will result in some divot getting badly hurt and a great raft of legislation swinging into place to control everything that will sweep away the good guys with the bad guys like it's doing with everything else these days! **A good point. Those pesky EU regs have even reached our shores. The current influx of cheap Chinky amps is both a good and bad thing (for various reasons mentioned above) but I gotta say finally that I have yet to hear a valve amp that didn't comprehensively **** all over most ss amps I've heard in terms of 'listenability' - ie where the 'music' counts more than the 'sound quality'...... **And I have yet to hear a CHEAP valve amp which can compete with a similarly priced, decently engineered SS one. Cheap valve amps are just not worth bothering with. Their output transformers are pitifully inadequate. Amongst other things. OTOH, a REALLY GOOD valve amp sounds (and, incidentally, measures) almost indistinguishable from a really good SS amp. That should set some alarm bells ringing for those who value reason and common sense above hyperbole. (My 2p only....) **And mine. |
Re Valve amps
On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 20:57:23 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: Anything with a valve in it (including CRTs) shouldn't be permanently powered up, It's not so very long ago that all broadcasting equipment was valve, and plenty was left powered up 24/7. Indeed, a power failure could result in lots of replacements after it was resumed. But that equipment was designed for this task - I'm not convinced el cheapo valve amps are. Indeed, and early computers with up to 10,000 valves also ran 24/7, although IIRC they required a valve change every ten minutes! Talk about a job for life.... :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Re Valve amps
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:31:33 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Andy Evans" wrote in message ... I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities, That's the point, done right we don't have to be. Plenty of people believe the valve (OK, triode then... ;-) to be the ultimate 'audio amplifier' (analogue OR digital) so why should it ever disappear? (What beats a pair of scissors for cutting stuff, eh??) What 'plenty of people believe' and reality are not always the same. Your analogy is poor, since a pair of scissors outperforms other easily available tools for its designated task. Not so with valve amps, which are generally poor performers (especially the SET variety) by any definition of 'high fidelity'. but the sound of valves lives on - musicians love them and use them, and a number of musical listeners, as you say, find they come closest to the sound they find represents the "musical experience". Yep. Most critical listeners however, prefer the sound of SS amps - and that's unlikely to change. Aside from a couple of 'boutique' studios, you won't find valve amps used by the people who record or master the music to which you listen......................... -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Re Valve amps
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:47:10 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Mike Gilmour" wrote Many tube amps are weighty but don't forget SS amplifiers are also very heavy, the big Krells, ML's etc. My own SS amp weighs in at 125 lbs. I'd bet that most people being tempted by 'budget' valve amps aren't coming from ss behemoths (some of which are real amps and can sound damn near as good as valves anyway) but from the ****e little 'flyaway' slices of brushed aluminium.... I think you have that the wrong way round. A few select valve amps are real amps, and can sound damn near as good as most SS amps........ -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Re Valve amps
Andy Evans wrote:
I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities, but the sound of valves lives on - musicians love them and use them, and a number of musical listeners, as you say, find they come closest to the sound they find represents the "musical experience". If valves are used for musical *production*, then the distortion forms part of the art (which is fine, since musicians are making new music) However, for musical *reproduction*, the valves would distort the signal being reproduced, and taken to its extreme, a valve amp would then act as a signal processor, wouldn't it? |
Re Valve amps
Tat Chan wrote:
If valves are used for musical *production*, then the distortion forms part of the art (which is fine, since musicians are making new music) However, for musical *reproduction*, the valves would distort the signal being reproduced, and taken to its extreme, a valve amp would then act as a signal processor, wouldn't it? The 'extreme', to my mind, is more like a valve guitar amp than a valve hifi amp. -- Wally www.artbywally.com www.wally.myby.co.uk |
Re Valve amps
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 20:57:23 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: Anything with a valve in it (including CRTs) shouldn't be permanently powered up, It's not so very long ago that all broadcasting equipment was valve, and plenty was left powered up 24/7. Indeed, a power failure could result in lots of replacements after it was resumed. But that equipment was designed for this task - I'm not convinced el cheapo valve amps are. Indeed, and early computers with up to 10,000 valves also ran 24/7, although IIRC they required a valve change every ten minutes! Talk about a job for life.... :-) **My partner dragged out this quote from some computer guy in the 50's. It went (to paraphrase): "Sometime, in the future, computers will weigh less than 1.5 Tons." -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
Re Valve amps
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:31:33 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Andy Evans" wrote in message ... I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities, That's the point, done right we don't have to be. Plenty of people believe the valve (OK, triode then... ;-) to be the ultimate 'audio amplifier' (analogue OR digital) so why should it ever disappear? (What beats a pair of scissors for cutting stuff, eh??) What 'plenty of people believe' and reality are not always the same. Agreed - actually I'd go further and say that what most people believe is *rarely* 'reality'..... Your analogy is poor, since a pair of scissors outperforms other easily available tools for its designated task. Not so with valve amps, which are generally poor performers (especially the SET variety) by any definition of 'high fidelity'. OK, what I need is a better analogy which portrays 'just because it's old (or even the original) it doesn't mean it can't be the best....' Most critical listeners however, prefer the sound of SS amps - and that's unlikely to change. Aside from a couple of 'boutique' studios, you won't find valve amps used by the people who record or master the music to which you listen......................... May or not be the case, but with the average age of my record collection I wouldn't rule it out. But we've been here before, I don't care what processes/practices/equipment has/have been used to produce the music I'm playing - I consider that to be an 'end product' (whatever the format). All I'm concerned about is what results I get with it from my own reproduction equipment. (As it happens, valve and ss amps are about Even Stevens in this house atm - 3 of each.....) |
Re Valve amps
"Tat Chan" wrote in message ... Andy Evans wrote: I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities, but the sound of valves lives on - musicians love them and use them, and a number of musical listeners, as you say, find they come closest to the sound they find represents the "musical experience". If valves are used for musical *production*, then the distortion forms part of the art (which is fine, since musicians are making new music) However, for musical *reproduction*, the valves would distort the signal being reproduced, and taken to its extreme, a valve amp would then act as a signal processor, wouldn't it? This sort of post never fails to amaze me - like ss kit *doesn't* distort the signal FFS!!! |
Re Valve amps
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:47:10 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Mike Gilmour" wrote Many tube amps are weighty but don't forget SS amplifiers are also very heavy, the big Krells, ML's etc. My own SS amp weighs in at 125 lbs. I'd bet that most people being tempted by 'budget' valve amps aren't coming from ss behemoths (some of which are real amps and can sound damn near as good as valves anyway) but from the ****e little 'flyaway' slices of brushed aluminium.... I think you have that the wrong way round. A few select valve amps are real amps, and can sound damn near as good as most SS amps........ Fine - a different opinion based on a different preferences based on a different credo.... |
Re Valve amps
On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:48:27 +0100, "Keith G"
wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:31:33 +0100, "Keith G" wrote: "Andy Evans" wrote in message ... I think we bottleheads are ultimately going to become rarities, That's the point, done right we don't have to be. Plenty of people believe the valve (OK, triode then... ;-) to be the ultimate 'audio amplifier' (analogue OR digital) so why should it ever disappear? (What beats a pair of scissors for cutting stuff, eh??) What 'plenty of people believe' and reality are not always the same. Agreed - actually I'd go further and say that what most people believe is *rarely* 'reality'..... I'd go further and say that once you have used the word "believe" you have guaranteed that it is untrue. If it was true, you would simply "know". The difference?... "Believe" = accept without proof "Know" = accept on the basis of proof Your analogy is poor, since a pair of scissors outperforms other easily available tools for its designated task. Not so with valve amps, which are generally poor performers (especially the SET variety) by any definition of 'high fidelity'. OK, what I need is a better analogy which portrays 'just because it's old (or even the original) it doesn't mean it can't be the best....' Extreme danger of "golden-ageism" here. Most critical listeners however, prefer the sound of SS amps - and that's unlikely to change. Aside from a couple of 'boutique' studios, you won't find valve amps used by the people who record or master the music to which you listen......................... May or not be the case, but with the average age of my record collection I wouldn't rule it out. But we've been here before, I don't care what processes/practices/equipment has/have been used to produce the music I'm playing - I consider that to be an 'end product' (whatever the format). All I'm concerned about is what results I get with it from my own reproduction equipment. (As it happens, valve and ss amps are about Even Stevens in this house atm - 3 of each.....) What you like is what you like. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Re Valve amps
On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:46:23 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
wrote: **The term: "Pom", is a one of endearment. It should not be taken as an offensive term. "Pommy *******" is also a term of great endearment. As in: "Will ya have another beer, you Pommy *******?" The term: "Whinging Pom" is a very severe insult. The term: "Tight arsed Scot", is, like the term: "Miserable Scot", merely a perfectly accurate observation and cannot possibly be taken as terms which are offensive. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au Hee hee - I like that. Actually all insults work strictly on the basis that they are true - not that they are insulting per se. I remember once an Aussie being introduced to a few of us, and this bloke was the most whingeing ******* who ever walked the earth. Everything was better in Australia. Anyway, sometime during the evening, somebody - well fed up - just said to him "you're an Australian, aren't you?". That did it - he went red and stormed out. I've no doubt he is even now back home telling everybody about this pommy rudeness. So insults can't be given - only accepted. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Re Valve amps
"Trevor Wilson" wrote **And I have yet to hear a CHEAP valve amp which can compete with a similarly priced, decently engineered SS one. Cheap valve amps are just not worth bothering with. Their output transformers are pitifully inadequate. Amongst other things. OTOH, a REALLY GOOD valve amp sounds (and, incidentally, measures) almost indistinguishable from a really good SS amp. On paper I would agree with you, but I suspect the reality for many people is that cheap valve amps actually *do* provide the type of sound the purchaser is looking for. My argument is that it *seems* they are more likely to play up and that people buying them should be aware of this - not a problem if the buyer has the skills to sort them out, or there is support readily available at reasonable prices. (I have to say it appears at least some of the eBay sellers of cheap amps appear to be ready and willing to help when necessary....??) Let's sum this up with an analogy: You want a car to get about. You got two choices - save up for a long time to buy a 'respected, reliable' car or you buy summat cheap or secondhand and *expect* to have to get the spanners out sooner or later. It's that simple and they way I view the recent influx of cheap amps. You'll never fettle an old banger into a Bentley but at least it'll whizz around (keeping you dry when it rains) for most of the time and it's quite likely to be a lot of fun! (I would add also that I don't think these cheap amps are quite as bad as some would have us believe - as usual, I don't think most of the 'knockers' have ever heard one!) That should set some alarm bells ringing for those who value reason and common sense above hyperbole. But who are not the people buying cheap valve amps, I suspect..... |
Re Valve amps
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 01:39:29 GMT, "Trevor Wilson" wrote: "StaffBull" wrote in message ... Thanks for the helpful comments below - another question I have is if I would leave a valve amp on all the time or switch it off and have to wait for it to warm up every time I need it? **ALL power amps should be switched off, until they are required for use. Hooey. **Nope. Fact. There are several reasons for this: * Leaving an amp switched on, accelerates wear and tear on several parts. In SS amps, this means electrolytic caps. In valve amps, this means valves and electrolytic caps. Hooey. If it's not a class A amp, or otherwise warm inside, it puts less strain on the caps to leave them switched on. Start-up surges are a major cause of cap failure. **Hooey. If a cap is not rated to cope with the switch on of an amp, the design is faulty. Heat accelerates the wear on ALL electrolytic caps. My Audiolab 8000P has been switched on for about eight years, and works just fine. I don't leave the Krell switched on, because it's a true class A design, and pulls 300 watts from the wall at idle! **After you replace ALL the electrolytic caps and then tell there is no sonic, or measurable difference, then I may be prepared to believe you. After all, we all know (from the experience of valve amp owners) that it is exceedingly difficult for an amp owner to detect gradual wear on components. And I do agree, that leaving a hot running amp, permanetly powered (like a Class A, or valve design) is just dumb. Having said that, it is likely that your Krell probably uses 105oC rated, computer grade main filter caps (100,000 hours). I don't know about all the other caps, though. Your Audiolab uses bog-standard, 85oC rated, 10,000 hour caps. How long is 8 years, again? * Leaving the amp switched on, leaves the amp open to line surges and spikes, which may damage equipment. Only badly designed equipment, and not everywhere has such crappy mains that this is an issue. **Some line surges cannot be protected against, even by heroic means. * Leaving the amp switched on is not environmentally sensitive. Neither is farting, but I doubt it's a major issue. **Every bit helps. As they used to say: "Think globally, act locally." Think of the money, Stewart. Tell me again why you would buy an amp, without first listening to it? Tell my why you think this is a good idea? Seems like a bad idea - much like attempting to drive any decent speaker with a cheap valve amp, when the same money would buy you a sonically transparent SS amp. **Ah, we agree on something. -- Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au |
Re Valve amps
"Tat Chan" wrote I wasn't refering to numbers, just the stereotype down in Oz about Kiwis being, uhm, rather attached to their sheep ... I could go on, but it wouldn't be PC ... ;) PC? Don't worry about it - I don't! ;-) (We're not all Soft Lads in the UK yet!) Anyway, the original post was meant to convey my objection to the use of the term 'Chinky' Don't take this personally (I'm sure if we met, we'd get on fine) but ordinarily I'd say 'tough ****, if you don't like it'...!! (But you're not wrong - technically a 'Chinky' is a Chinese carry-out. :-) |
Re Valve amps
**After you replace ALL the electrolytic caps
What electrolytic caps? Only polypropylene and teflons in my valve amp. === Andy Evans === Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com Audio, music and health pages and interesting links. |
Re Valve amps
This sort of post never fails to amaze me - like ss kit *doesn't* distort
the signal FFS!!! Hang on here, Keith - ss kit measures .00000000001% distortion because it's sonically transparent. Never mind what it sounds like. And anyway, most people use ss kit so it must be better. Who are we to remain unconvinced by such arguments. === Andy Evans === Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com Audio, music and health pages and interesting links. |
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