In article , Arny Krueger
writes
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message

Heinz Kiosk wrote:

Why, therefore, would any consumer pay more than this
for a home CD replay system. eg From memory the Linn CD12 retails
for around £12,000 and presumably the people who buy it are happy
with the value-for-money when they listen to the music.

Ppl that have the kind of money to spend on kit like that have to
spend it on something I guess !

I suppose you're buying into the 'dream' as extolled by clever
marketing.

No doubt the CD12 is well engineered - but really !

We did some investigations of high end CD/DVD players a few weeks ago, and
found that common high end practice seems to be to assemble the drive and
circuit boards from mid-fi machines into a nice looking case, maybe add a
gratuitous output buffer board, jack the price up by a factor of about 20,
and let the fun begin.



Now that...I could believe!.......
--
Tony Sayer

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:52:56 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , Arny Krueger
writes
"Pooh Bear" wrote in message

Heinz Kiosk wrote:

Why, therefore, would any consumer pay more than this
for a home CD replay system. eg From memory the Linn CD12 retails
for around £12,000 and presumably the people who buy it are happy
with the value-for-money when they listen to the music.

Ppl that have the kind of money to spend on kit like that have to
spend it on something I guess !

I suppose you're buying into the 'dream' as extolled by clever
marketing.

No doubt the CD12 is well engineered - but really !

We did some investigations of high end CD/DVD players a few weeks ago, and
found that common high end practice seems to be to assemble the drive and
circuit boards from mid-fi machines into a nice looking case, maybe add a
gratuitous output buffer board, jack the price up by a factor of about 20,
and let the fun begin.



Now that...I could believe!.......

You'd better believe it! Deep inside the beautiful alloy casing of the
Mark Levinson 'Reference' transport at some $15,000, you'll find
exactly the same Philips industrial transport mech (and associated
electronics) as is used in the jukebox at your local pub.......

--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:52:56 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , Arny Krueger
writes

We did some investigations of high end CD/DVD players a few weeks ago, and
found that common high end practice seems to be to assemble the drive and
circuit boards from mid-fi machines into a nice looking case, maybe add a
gratuitous output buffer board, jack the price up by a factor of about 20,
and let the fun begin.


Now that...I could believe!.......

You'd better believe it! Deep inside the beautiful alloy casing of the
Mark Levinson 'Reference' transport at some $15,000, you'll find
exactly the same Philips industrial transport mech (and associated
electronics) as is used in the jukebox at your local pub.......

No surprise there then !

Wasn't there a better transport available ?

At least my old Denon DCD-1700 has a transport that feels of 'battleship
quality'. In fact the entire player is built like that. Unlike many modern CD
players that you could pick up with your little finger, this is one that
actually inspires confidence due to its sheer weight !


Graham

Pooh Bear said:

You'd better believe it! Deep inside the beautiful alloy casing of the
Mark Levinson 'Reference' transport at some $15,000, you'll find
exactly the same Philips industrial transport mech (and associated
electronics) as is used in the jukebox at your local pub.......

No surprise there then !

Wasn't there a better transport available ?

What's wrong with the Philips CD12 or their later reincarnations?
It's a teriffic mechanism. Arcam and many other good players use them
as well.
For audio use, I prefer the TEAC VRDS or Pioneer stable platter
mechanism, though. But that's because I'm a DIY-er who always looks
for things to improve. :-)

At least my old Denon DCD-1700 has a transport that feels of 'battleship
quality'. In fact the entire player is built like that. Unlike many modern CD
players that you could pick up with your little finger, this is one that
actually inspires confidence due to its sheer weight !

You will note that my recently acquired Pioneer stable platter player
sounds way better after I've filled it up to its top with concrete,
note.

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

Sander deWaal wrote:

Pooh Bear said:

You'd better believe it! Deep inside the beautiful alloy casing of the
Mark Levinson 'Reference' transport at some $15,000, you'll find
exactly the same Philips industrial transport mech (and associated
electronics) as is used in the jukebox at your local pub.......

No surprise there then !

Wasn't there a better transport available ?

What's wrong with the Philips CD12 or their later reincarnations?
It's a teriffic mechanism. Arcam and many other good players use them
as well.

I have to confess that I'm slightly biased against Philips *mechanisms*.

Going *way back* Philips have engineered very mechanically weak products that
simply break very easily.

I dare say that they may have learnt their lesson but I would like to see evidence
of same !


For audio use, I prefer the TEAC VRDS or Pioneer stable platter
mechanism, though. But that's because I'm a DIY-er who always looks
for things to improve. :-)

At least my old Denon DCD-1700 has a transport that feels of 'battleship
quality'. In fact the entire player is built like that. Unlike many modern CD
players that you could pick up with your little finger, this is one that
actually inspires confidence due to its sheer weight !

You will note that my recently acquired Pioneer stable platter player
sounds way better after I've filled it up to its top with concrete,
note.

Platter ? Vinyl ?

My Garrard 401 rumbles like crazy if you don't mount it in a 'block of stone' !


Graham

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 01:01:24 +0100, Pooh Bear
wrote:


I have to confess that I'm slightly biased against Philips *mechanisms*.

Going *way back* Philips have engineered very mechanically weak products that
simply break very easily.

I dare say that they may have learnt their lesson but I would like to see evidence
of same !

Going, as you say, *way* back, Philips made probably the best
dedicated CD transport mechanism ever built - the all-alloy CDM9-Pro.
I have never heard of one of those failing, and IIRC Naim liked it so
much that when they heard that it was going out of production, they
bought up the entire stock.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Pooh Bear said:

You will note that my recently acquired Pioneer stable platter player
sounds way better after I've filled it up to its top with concrete,
note.

Platter ? Vinyl ?

The Pioneer Stable Platter mechanisms are CD mechanisms.
The CD is put upside down on a platter, the laser reads info from
above it.
Less reading errors due to less resonances of the CD leads to better
sound, so they say.
I just like the way they're built (the heavy ones, note, not the cheap
knockoffs).
It's been a good transport so far after my TEAC died, but I'm
intending of using the concertor board of the TEAC. Sounded just
better to my ears (ooohhh, that's a *subjective* opinion!).
..
My Garrard 401 rumbles like crazy if you don't mount it in a 'block of stone' !

Get a Michell Gyrodeck :-)

--
Sander deWaal
"SOA of a KT88? Sufficient."

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 01:00:59 +0200, Sander deWaal
wrote:

Pooh Bear said:

You'd better believe it! Deep inside the beautiful alloy casing of the
Mark Levinson 'Reference' transport at some $15,000, you'll find
exactly the same Philips industrial transport mech (and associated
electronics) as is used in the jukebox at your local pub.......

No surprise there then !

Wasn't there a better transport available ?

What's wrong with the Philips CD12 or their later reincarnations?
It's a teriffic mechanism. Arcam and many other good players use them
as well.

To be fair, Arcam only use Philips now because Sony stopped making the
CDM-14 'Fine Drive' mechanism.

For audio use, I prefer the TEAC VRDS or Pioneer stable platter
mechanism, though. But that's because I'm a DIY-er who always looks
for things to improve. :-)

Some would say that the best TEAC VRDS transport was the state of the
art, others would argue that for actual reading performance, which is
what really matters, the high-speed CD-ROM drives used by Meridian are
the best, even if they do 'look and feel' a little cheesy.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:12:33 +0100, Pooh Bear
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:52:56 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , Arny Krueger
writes

We did some investigations of high end CD/DVD players a few weeks ago, and
found that common high end practice seems to be to assemble the drive and
circuit boards from mid-fi machines into a nice looking case, maybe add a
gratuitous output buffer board, jack the price up by a factor of about 20,
and let the fun begin.


Now that...I could believe!.......

You'd better believe it! Deep inside the beautiful alloy casing of the
Mark Levinson 'Reference' transport at some $15,000, you'll find
exactly the same Philips industrial transport mech (and associated
electronics) as is used in the jukebox at your local pub.......

No surprise there then !

Wasn't there a better transport available ?

No, that *is* the best available transport (now that Sony have stopped
making the CDM-14). Costs all of $60 in OEM quantity, complete with
it's electronics pack.

At least my old Denon DCD-1700 has a transport that feels of 'battleship
quality'.

Actually no, that's just the loader, which has no function once the
disc starts to spin. You never see the actual transport, except in
some top loaders and a couple of Naims. And for the older nitpickers,
the Meridian 200 series.

In fact the entire player is built like that. Unlike many modern CD
players that you could pick up with your little finger, this is one that
actually inspires confidence due to its sheer weight !

Such confidence is however misplaced, as a really good transport must
have extremely low-mass moving parts - CDs do *not* spin at a constant
rate, so the rules are diametrically opposed to those for LP. Those
'high end' belt-drive transports are particularly hilarious!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

In message , Stewart
Pinkerton writes
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:12:33 +0100, Pooh Bear
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:52:56 +0100, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , Arny Krueger
writes

We did some investigations of high end CD/DVD players a few weeks ago, and
found that common high end practice seems to be to assemble the drive and
circuit boards from mid-fi machines into a nice looking case, maybe add a
gratuitous output buffer board, jack the price up by a factor of about 20,
and let the fun begin.


Now that...I could believe!.......

You'd better believe it! Deep inside the beautiful alloy casing of the
Mark Levinson 'Reference' transport at some $15,000, you'll find
exactly the same Philips industrial transport mech (and associated
electronics) as is used in the jukebox at your local pub.......

No surprise there then !

Wasn't there a better transport available ?

No, that *is* the best available transport (now that Sony have stopped
making the CDM-14). Costs all of $60 in OEM quantity, complete with
it's electronics pack.

At least my old Denon DCD-1700 has a transport that feels of 'battleship
quality'.

Actually no, that's just the loader, which has no function once the
disc starts to spin. You never see the actual transport, except in
some top loaders and a couple of Naims. And for the older nitpickers,
the Meridian 200 series.

In fact the entire player is built like that. Unlike many modern CD
players that you could pick up with your little finger, this is one that
actually inspires confidence due to its sheer weight !

Such confidence is however misplaced, as a really good transport must
have extremely low-mass moving parts - CDs do *not* spin at a constant
rate, so the rules are diametrically opposed to those for LP. Those
'high end' belt-drive transports are particularly hilarious!

But there'd be nothing to stop a CD drive spinning at a constant rate,
(provided it was high enough), and FIFO buffering the audio. There's
nothing to stop a maker reading the audio in high speed 'packet' bursts.
--
Chris Morriss