Hi end vinyl system
 

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:03:49 +0100, ruffrecords
wrote:

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
snip

For the OP's information, it's on my page at
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/
and he's welcome to drop in any time for a listen, in much better
surroundings than he'll find in a hi-fi shop!

If you are not too far away I just moght take you up on that. I am in
North Norfolk near Cromer. Whereabouts are you?

A small village called Rempstone, on the A60 between Loughborough and
Nottingham.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Hi end vinyl system
 

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:47:49 +0100, ruffrecords
wrote:

Neil Jones wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:

In article , ruffrecords
wrote:



Already am. Having a disagreement with a guy on another group who
reckons hi end vinyl sounds way better - I mean obviously better than
CD. He suggested I should visit a hi-end hi-fi shop and listen to 5
to 10 grands worth of vinyl kit to hear waht I have been missing, so
that's waht I intend to do.

If he knows this, he presumably knows what system he heard, and where
he heard it. So I'd say it was up to him to say where you can listen
to this system he rates so highly. OTOH If his opinion is just a
generalisation, and he can't give you an example you can actually
listen to, then judge his opinion on that basis. :-)


Before you even get to this point you probably need to narrow down
exactly what he means by 'better'.

Neil



I don't want to repeat the entire argument but this guy lives in Miami
and claims to have a $73,000 turtable and similarly expensive other
components. Despite that, he argues that any vinyl based system in
the $5K to $10K range will 'blow away' any CD system of any kind and
that the differences will be so noticeable as to be obvious.

That would be the Rockport Sirius III. I've heard it, set up by the
designer himself, and with a £5,000 Clearaudio Insider cartridge, and
it still suffers all the problems due to the records it plays. Of
course, if I'd spent that much, I too would probably argue that it
'blows CD away'. However, back here in the real world, it just ain't
so, if the sound of the master tape is what you're after.

As to 'better' as you might expect this has been debated at length.
In summary it comes down to instruments sounding more like the real
thing, and of course he claims extensive and regular exposure to what
the real thing sounds like.

So do I, and he's talking crap.

He further claims that tremendous technological advances have been
made in vinyl reproduction technology in the last 30 years so mit now
sounds better than any of us old lags would have remembered hearing
back in its heyday in the 70's.

Bull****, the *records* have not changed at all.

Oh, and by the way, you can only achieve this incredible level of
quality by playing one of a few direct to disk records still in
circulation and of which any really decent hi-fi shop will have a few.

I have about fifteen, by Sheffield, Crystal Clear, Discwasher and RCA,
and they are only *marginally* superior to a good conventional
pressing. They are also noticeably inferior to a good CD, and *vastly*
inferior to a top-class CD such as any of the JVC XRCD range, of which
I have 32.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Hi end vinyl system
 

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:50:07 +0100, ruffrecords
wrote:

JustMe wrote:

Is it your intention to purchase the setup if you like it?

I don't know. One problem is that apparently you need really good
vinyl, preferably direct to disk stuff. This is both rare and
unlikely to come anywhere near covering the breadth of my musical
tastes. That said I have an open mind, and a big enough cheque book,
so if it really is that good I might just well buy one.

I suggest that the SME 10 with the dedicated arm and say a Lyra Lydian
cartridge, is as good as anything you'll hear.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Hi end vinyl system
 

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:54:01 +0100, ruffrecords
wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , ruffrecords
wrote:



Already am. Having a disagreement with a guy on another group who
reckons hi end vinyl sounds way better - I mean obviously better than
CD. He suggested I should visit a hi-end hi-fi shop and listen to 5 to
10 grands worth of vinyl kit to hear waht I have been missing, so
that's waht I intend to do.


If he knows this, he presumably knows what system he heard, and where he
heard it. So I'd say it was up to him to say where you can listen to this
system he rates so highly. OTOH If his opinion is just a generalisation,
and he can't give you an example you can actually listen to, then judge his
opinion on that basis. :-)

Unfortunately he lives in Miami and refuses to let me visit him to
hear his sytem.

How convenient. He has of course at least posted a picture of this
system, to prove its existence?

I'm also a bit puzzled by the idea that what is needed is 5-10 grand of
'vinyl kit'. Does this include the power amps and speakers and listening
room being specifically 'vinyl kit', or is he just talking about the
cartridge, arm, deck, and RIAA preamp?

I think he means system from cartridge to speakers but probably
excluding room treatment. I asked him how his room was treated but he
refused to answer.

Interesting, as any *real* enthusiast would happily spend hours
discussing the details of how he's optimised his room.

Must admit I am also somewhat doubtful of recommending kit (apparently)
solely on the basis that it costs a lot of money...

He has no doubt about it at all. As I mentioned eleswhere he says he
has a $73,000 turntable and the rest of his sytem is of similar cost
and he reckons you can definitely hear how much better his sytem is
than a 5 to 10K one.

Sounds like a pure bull****ter, and of course he's talking about a
personal preference for the distinctive *added artifacts* of vinyl,
not anything to do with fidelity to the master tape. And he's wrong
abouty his own system, you can't tell any sensible difference in
quality above a few grand, as the vinyl itself is a severe limitation.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Hi end vinyl system
 

On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:43:53 +0100, ruffrecords
wrote:

Dersu wrote:
"ruffrecords" wrote in message
...

Unfortunately he lives in Miami and refuses to let me visit him to hear
his sytem.


As I mentioned eleswhere he says he

has a $73,000 turntable and the rest of his sytem is of similar cost and
he reckons you can definitely hear how much better his sytem is than a 5
to 10K one.

Sounds to me like someone is having his plonker pulled by an aspiring Grand
Master.

Indeed - it also seems doubtful that this fabled system actually
exists, since he refuses to be visited and won't supply pictures!


Not just me but an entire yahoo group.

Which group is that?

Lot's of us have argued with
him but he has that annoying habit of passing off his opinions as
fact. The fact that his total system cost around $250,000 makes it
for anyone else to say 'I heard one of those and it sucks'

Easy to say, less easy to back up.

After
pressing him to let me go listen to his system he said there was no
need and any 5 to 10K vinyl system would be obviously superior to and
CD system so I should go to my local hi-fi shop and hear one. I would
love to do this and be able to go back and say, I did that and it
still sounded crap. Hence the original question.

Could be all he actually has is a copy of Stereophile 'recommended
components', of course................

If you like natural sound reproduced with maximum fidelity, then you
*are* going to hear a 'high end' vinyl system and know that it's crap.
It's the classic cry of vinylphiles that those who don't agree with
them 'have obviously never heard a really good vinyl system'. Well, I
have a pretty decent vinyl rig, and I've heard the very best that any
ampount of money can buy, and vinyl *still* sucks compered to
well-made CD.

BTW, regarding that $73,000 turntable, you might be interested to know
that Stereophile considers the SME 30/2 to be at least its equal, and
the £3,000 SME 10 not far behind.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Hi end vinyl system
 

In article , ruffrecords
wrote:
Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , ruffrecords
wrote:



Already am. Having a disagreement with a guy on another group who
reckons hi end vinyl sounds way better - I mean obviously better than
CD. He suggested I should visit a hi-end hi-fi shop and listen to 5
to 10 grands worth of vinyl kit to hear waht I have been missing, so
that's waht I intend to do.


If he knows this, he presumably knows what system he heard, and where
he heard it. So I'd say it was up to him to say where you can listen
to this system he rates so highly. OTOH If his opinion is just a
generalisation, and he can't give you an example you can actually
listen to, then judge his opinion on that basis. :-)

Unfortunately he lives in Miami and refuses to let me visit him to hear
his sytem.

If he did that to me I would conclude that I was under no compulsion to
regard his opinions as having any relevance or use to me. :-)


I'm also a bit puzzled by the idea that what is needed is 5-10 grand
of 'vinyl kit'. Does this include the power amps and speakers and
listening room being specifically 'vinyl kit', or is he just talking
about the cartridge, arm, deck, and RIAA preamp?

I think he means system from cartridge to speakers but probably
excluding room treatment. I asked him how his room was treated but he
refused to answer.

Again, I would personally take this as a sign that I could disregard his
opinions. I would not waste much sleep worring about his views.


Must admit I am also somewhat doubtful of recommending kit
(apparently) solely on the basis that it costs a lot of money...

He has no doubt about it at all. As I mentioned eleswhere he says he
has a $73,000 turntable and the rest of his sytem is of similar cost
and he reckons you can definitely hear how much better his sytem is
than a 5 to 10K one.

He is entitled to his opinion. You are entitiled to disregard it if he
refuses to offer any means for testing his opinion so you can form your own
conclusions w.r.t. his claims :-)

So far as I can see, all he has told you is that he had so much money that
he was willing and able to spend 73,000 USD on a turntable. At best, this
'proves' he was willing to spend lots on money. However I have my doubts
that being rich means you must have good hearing. :-)

My own decision would probably have been to put the money towards a better
house with a dedicated listening room, or modifying my existing home to get
an better listening room. Could probably do a nice job of that for 73,000
USD.

FWIW My experience is that - in general and regardless of LP versus CD
arguments - the weakest link in 'audio systems' tends to be the room
acoustics and factors like speaker/listener placement once you have spent
only a moderate amount (compared with 73,000 USD) on equipment.

With some of the other comments you report from him, you can also reflect
on how useful a system will be if only a tiny number of LPs are ( as
alleged by the same person) good enough to make full use of it. :-) Can't
really see the point myself on spending so much just to enjoy one or two
LPs. Life's too short. I'd rather buy some new plants and shove them in the
garden for the spring. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Hi end vinyl system
 

In article , ruffrecords
wrote:
Dersu wrote:


Not just me but an entire yahoo group. Lot's of us have argued with
him but he has that annoying habit of passing off his opinions as fact.
The fact that his total system cost around $250,000 makes it for
anyone else to say 'I heard one of those and it sucks'

So try "Well since you are describing a system without offerring any way to
test your claims, we can't be bothered to take you seriously." Then simply
ignore any assertions he makes until such time as he offers to back them up
in a way you can use to test his claims. Trolls eventually starve if left
alone. :-)

After pressing him to let me go listen to his system he said there was
no need and any 5 to 10K vinyl system would be obviously superior to and
CD system so I should go to my local hi-fi shop and hear one.

If he knows this, he can specify a system that meets his criteria. If 'any'
will then he should find this easy enough if he has any clue. :-)

I would love to do this and be able to go back and say, I did that and
it still sounded crap. Hence the original question.

If he won't specify a system, then you can't listen to what he specifies.
Hence his claims are void of any practical meaning. His claims are the
information theory equivalent of random noise. This can be irritating when
you want a meaningful message, but you won't get far by trying to listen to
random noise and 'read meanings' into it. :-)

Life is too short. Ignore him and enjoy the music. Spend your money on more
music - LP or CD or DVD or whatever you prefer. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Hi end vinyl system
 

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:03:49 +0100, ruffrecords
wrote:


Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
snip

For the OP's information, it's on my page at
http://www.apah69.dsl.pipex.com/
and he's welcome to drop in any time for a listen, in much better
surroundings than he'll find in a hi-fi shop!

If you are not too far away I just moght take you up on that. I am in
North Norfolk near Cromer. Whereabouts are you?


A small village called Rempstone, on the A60 between Loughborough and
Nottingham.

Not too far away. I went to Notty Uni and my mother's family all live
around there so it is not unfamiliar territory. I'll get back to you.

Cheers

Ian

Hi end vinyl system
 

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:47:49 +0100, ruffrecords
wrote:


Neil Jones wrote:

Jim Lesurf wrote:


In article , ruffrecords
wrote:




Already am. Having a disagreement with a guy on another group who
reckons hi end vinyl sounds way better - I mean obviously better than
CD. He suggested I should visit a hi-end hi-fi shop and listen to 5
to 10 grands worth of vinyl kit to hear waht I have been missing, so
that's waht I intend to do.

If he knows this, he presumably knows what system he heard, and where
he heard it. So I'd say it was up to him to say where you can listen
to this system he rates so highly. OTOH If his opinion is just a
generalisation, and he can't give you an example you can actually
listen to, then judge his opinion on that basis. :-)


Before you even get to this point you probably need to narrow down
exactly what he means by 'better'.

Neil



I don't want to repeat the entire argument but this guy lives in Miami
and claims to have a $73,000 turtable and similarly expensive other
components. Despite that, he argues that any vinyl based system in
the $5K to $10K range will 'blow away' any CD system of any kind and
that the differences will be so noticeable as to be obvious.


That would be the Rockport Sirius III. I've heard it, set up by the
designer himself, and with a £5,000 Clearaudio Insider cartridge, and
it still suffers all the problems due to the records it plays. Of
course, if I'd spent that much, I too would probably argue that it
'blows CD away'. However, back here in the real world, it just ain't
so, if the sound of the master tape is what you're after.


As to 'better' as you might expect this has been debated at length.
In summary it comes down to instruments sounding more like the real
thing, and of course he claims extensive and regular exposure to what
the real thing sounds like.


So do I, and he's talking crap.


He further claims that tremendous technological advances have been
made in vinyl reproduction technology in the last 30 years so mit now
sounds better than any of us old lags would have remembered hearing
back in its heyday in the 70's.


Bull****, the *records* have not changed at all.


Oh, and by the way, you can only achieve this incredible level of
quality by playing one of a few direct to disk records still in
circulation and of which any really decent hi-fi shop will have a few.


I have about fifteen, by Sheffield, Crystal Clear, Discwasher and RCA,
and they are only *marginally* superior to a good conventional
pressing. They are also noticeably inferior to a good CD, and *vastly*
inferior to a top-class CD such as any of the JVC XRCD range, of which
I have 32.

Thanks for that Stewart, that is all *very* useful ammo for the future.

Ian

Hi end vinyl system
 

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 21:54:01 +0100, ruffrecords
wrote:


Jim Lesurf wrote:

In article , ruffrecords
wrote:




Already am. Having a disagreement with a guy on another group who
reckons hi end vinyl sounds way better - I mean obviously better than
CD. He suggested I should visit a hi-end hi-fi shop and listen to 5 to
10 grands worth of vinyl kit to hear waht I have been missing, so
that's waht I intend to do.


If he knows this, he presumably knows what system he heard, and where he
heard it. So I'd say it was up to him to say where you can listen to this
system he rates so highly. OTOH If his opinion is just a generalisation,
and he can't give you an example you can actually listen to, then judge his
opinion on that basis. :-)

Unfortunately he lives in Miami and refuses to let me visit him to
hear his sytem.


How convenient. He has of course at least posted a picture of this
system, to prove its existence?

No. I asked him too and he refused point blank.

Ian