Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 22:43:53 +0100, ruffrecords
wrote:


Dersu wrote:

"ruffrecords" wrote in message
...


Unfortunately he lives in Miami and refuses to let me visit him to hear
his sytem.


As I mentioned eleswhere he says he


has a $73,000 turntable and the rest of his sytem is of similar cost and
he reckons you can definitely hear how much better his sytem is than a 5
to 10K one.


Sounds to me like someone is having his plonker pulled by an aspiring Grand
Master.


Indeed - it also seems doubtful that this fabled system actually
exists, since he refuses to be visited and won't supply pictures!



Not just me but an entire yahoo group.


Which group is that?

reel2reel

Ian

"ruffrecords" wrote in message
...
Arny Krueger wrote:
"ruffrecords" wrote in message



Already am. Having a disagreement with a guy on another group who
reckons hi end vinyl sounds way better - I mean obviously better than
CD.


This is a well-known scam. You're supposed to believe him and pay
1,000's and 1,000's on a fruitless search for the holy grail of a vinyl
playback system that actually sounds better than the audio section of a
good $50US DVD player.

Hopefully I am a tad smater than that - hence my desire to listen to a
system localy.


He suggested I should visit a hi-end hi-fi shop and listen to 5
to 10 grands worth of vinyl kit to hear what I have been missing, so
that's what I intend to do.


Only if your time is not worth very much to you...


Well, I am retired, I do have an open mind and it is a long time since I
heard a so called high end system.

Ian

Ian,

As its a long time since you've heard a high end system and (if you have)
plenty of time being retired then I'd suggest you don't rush into a
purchase. Don't just visit 'a' hi-end shop..... Listen to as many high end
systems as you can of both retailers and private systems to get some idea of
what a good high end system can sound like. Remember most owners think
their system are the bees knees...some are and some are not! I know I was 12
years in the business. Include your listening room into the equation and be
sure to get lengthy home dems and don't be railroaded into anything if its
not what you want (some dealers in mind here ;-)
Happy hunting.

Mike

Jim Lesurf wrote:
In article , ruffrecords
wrote:

Dersu wrote:



Not just me but an entire yahoo group. Lot's of us have argued with
him but he has that annoying habit of passing off his opinions as fact.
The fact that his total system cost around $250,000 makes it for
anyone else to say 'I heard one of those and it sucks'


So try "Well since you are describing a system without offerring any way to
test your claims, we can't be bothered to take you seriously." Then simply
ignore any assertions he makes until such time as he offers to back them up
in a way you can use to test his claims. Trolls eventually starve if left
alone. :-)

After pressing him to let me go listen to his system he said there was
no need and any 5 to 10K vinyl system would be obviously superior to and
CD system so I should go to my local hi-fi shop and hear one.


If he knows this, he can specify a system that meets his criteria. If 'any'
will then he should find this easy enough if he has any clue. :-)


I would love to do this and be able to go back and say, I did that and
it still sounded crap. Hence the original question.


If he won't specify a system, then you can't listen to what he specifies.
Hence his claims are void of any practical meaning. His claims are the
information theory equivalent of random noise. This can be irritating when
you want a meaningful message, but you won't get far by trying to listen to
random noise and 'read meanings' into it. :-)

Life is too short. Ignore him and enjoy the music. Spend your money on more
music - LP or CD or DVD or whatever you prefer. :-)

Slainte,

Jim


I agree with all you say. The silly thing is the yahoo group
concerned is for reel to reel tape recorder enthusiasts. Occasionaly
someone talks about transfering vinyl to tape and that's the cue for
this guy to pop up and say vinyl is best. On a group with about 1000
members he's bound to get someone who'll disagree and a whole bunch of
bandwidth gets wasted for a few days and even it drives away a few
members. This happens perhpas every three months or so. His argument
is always the same - go listen to a high end vinyl system and see the
error of your ways. As we are all reel to reel enthusiasts no-one has
a high end vinyl system so he is fairly safe. As with many such people
he states opinions as if they were facts and as none of us has heard a
high vinyl system its hard to just say he is talking crap.

So all I want to do is go listen to a good 5 to 10K vinyl system so
that next time I can say he is talking crap. Anyway, it would be nice
to know just what the state of the art vinyl sounds like for my own
personal edification.

Ian

Mike Gilmour wrote:
"ruffrecords" wrote in message
...

Arny Krueger wrote:

"ruffrecords" wrote in message




Already am. Having a disagreement with a guy on another group who
reckons hi end vinyl sounds way better - I mean obviously better than
CD.


This is a well-known scam. You're supposed to believe him and pay
1,000's and 1,000's on a fruitless search for the holy grail of a vinyl
playback system that actually sounds better than the audio section of a
good $50US DVD player.

Hopefully I am a tad smater than that - hence my desire to listen to a
system localy.


He suggested I should visit a hi-end hi-fi shop and listen to 5
to 10 grands worth of vinyl kit to hear what I have been missing, so
that's what I intend to do.


Only if your time is not worth very much to you...


Well, I am retired, I do have an open mind and it is a long time since I
heard a so called high end system.

Ian


Ian,

As its a long time since you've heard a high end system and (if you have)
plenty of time being retired then I'd suggest you don't rush into a
purchase. Don't just visit 'a' hi-end shop..... Listen to as many high end
systems as you can of both retailers and private systems to get some idea of
what a good high end system can sound like.

That's exactly what I planned to do. I mainly just want to listen to a
few to see if there is any basis at all to his claims. Only if it
really is absolutely astonishingly better than anything else will I
consider a purchase.

IAn

"Mike Gilmour" wrote in message
...
:
: "ruffrecords" wrote in message
: ...
: Arny Krueger wrote:
: "ruffrecords" wrote in message
:
:
:
: Already am. Having a disagreement with a guy on another group who
: reckons hi end vinyl sounds way better - I mean obviously better than
: CD.
:
:
: This is a well-known scam. You're supposed to believe him and pay
: 1,000's and 1,000's on a fruitless search for the holy grail of a vinyl
: playback system that actually sounds better than the audio section of a
: good $50US DVD player.
:
: Hopefully I am a tad smater than that - hence my desire to listen to a
: system localy.
:
:
: He suggested I should visit a hi-end hi-fi shop and listen to 5
: to 10 grands worth of vinyl kit to hear what I have been missing, so
: that's what I intend to do.
:
:
: Only if your time is not worth very much to you...
:
:
: Well, I am retired, I do have an open mind and it is a long time since I
: heard a so called high end system.
:
: Ian
:
: Ian,
:
: As its a long time since you've heard a high end system and (if you have)
: plenty of time being retired then I'd suggest you don't rush into a
: purchase. Don't just visit 'a' hi-end shop..... Listen to as many high end
: systems as you can of both retailers and private systems to get some idea
of
: what a good high end system can sound like. Remember most owners think
: their system are the bees knees...some are and some are not! I know I was
12
: years in the business. Include your listening room into the equation and
be
: sure to get lengthy home dems and don't be railroaded into anything if its
: not what you want (some dealers in mind here ;-)
: Happy hunting.
:
: Mike
:
I agree with all of this, and I'd add that you're getting in to serious
dimishing returns territory over £500 for a turntable/arm/cart. To add some
fuel to the underlying challenge, I transferred some vinyl to (Revox) r2r
years ago and the results were stunning, I really couldn't tell the
difference. I find LP-CD transfers pretty good too.

Rob

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
ruffrecords wrote:
Having a disagreement with a guy on another group who
reckons hi end vinyl sounds way better - I mean obviously better than
CD. He suggested I should visit a hi-end hi-fi shop and listen to 5
to 10 grands worth of vinyl kit to hear waht I have been missing, so
that's waht I intend to do.

Standard argument from someone who doesn't know what they're on about -
find a more expensive xxxx

Well, those who spend silly money rationalise their decision on the back of
various technicist babble. That and weird kudos and sense-of-well-being
motivators.

No vinyl system can ever sound as good as CD - as a principle.

Nonsense - there is no *universal* principle of 'sounds as good'

Certain
records may sound 'better' than certain CDs, but that's for different
reasons.

Yes

There's an easy test for this. Transfer - using the best possible
equipment - an LP to CD. Ask the golden eared boys to tell which is which
in a blind test. They won't be able to. And I'll put serious money up for
a bet if someone wants to try. But they'll have to equal it.

I think a lot of people will tell the difference. IME acoustic instruments
and voice sound noticeably different. As to whether one is better than the
other, I don't think there's any answer to that. I'm not that concerned
about proving this to you, so hold on to your money Dave :-).

Do the same in reverse. Much more difficult, of course. But it can be
done. Anyone with quarter decent hearing will tell the difference.

As above
--
Rob

In article ,
Rob wrote:
To add some fuel to the underlying challenge, I transferred some vinyl
to (Revox) r2r years ago and the results were stunning, I really
couldn't tell the difference. I find LP-CD transfers pretty good too.

Some years ago, most LPs were mastered on 1/4" tape - and perhaps another
generation of multitrack before that. So the main degradation to the
'studio' signal that tape introduces had already occurred.

If you transfer a direct cut or digitally mastered LP to 1/4", you're
likely to hear the difference more readily.

--
*If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rob wrote:
No vinyl system can ever sound as good as CD - as a principle.

Nonsense - there is no *universal* principle of 'sounds as good'

There is to some - and that includes me. That is that the recording should
sound as close to the original as possible. And neither LP or analogue
tape comes near good digital in this respect.

You may well like the degradation that LP or tape introduces. That's your
choice. Many prefer their widescreen TV to distort 4:3 pictures to fill
the screen too. And consider that 'better' ;-)

--
*Marriage changes passion - suddenly you're in bed with a relative*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"ruffrecords" wrote in message


I don't want to repeat the entire argument but this guy lives in Miami
and claims to have a $73,000 turtable and similarly expensive other
components.

More money than brains...

Despite that, he argues that any vinyl based system in
the $5K to $10K range will 'blow away' any CD system of any kind and
that the differences will be so noticeable as to be obvious.

The difference will be obvious. For reference purposes, the vinyl system is
the one with tics, pops, and other forms of audible noise and distortion.
The good CD system is the one that provides an audibly perfect replica of
the signal that was recorded.

As to 'better' as you might expect this has been debated at length.

Some people are addicted to the audible noise and distortion that is
inherent in the vinyl format.

In summary it comes down to instruments sounding more like the real
thing, and of course he claims extensive and regular exposure to what
the real thing sounds like.

That's why 99% sales of new recordings are CDs, not LPs. They sound less
like music than LPs.

He further claims that tremendous technological advances have been
made in vinyl reproduction technology in the last 30 years so mit now
sounds better than any of us old lags would have remembered hearing
back in its heyday in the 70's.

Actually, very little has changed. The last major technological change in
vinyl production was Direct Metal Mastering, and by most accounts, it was
not an unqualified improvement. The last major technological change in vinyl
playback was either laser tracking or digital denoising, and by most
accounts they are not unqualified improvements, either.

Oh, and by the way, you can only achieve this incredible level of
quality by playing one of a few direct to disk records still in
circulation and of which any really decent hi-fi shop will have a few.

Direct-to-disk was an improvement because it eliminated the tape
record/playback cycle which is in fact not sonically transparent. However,
digital recording and production can provide identical benefits and greatly
ease the production process.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"ruffrecords" wrote in message


Clip...

That's why 99% sales of new recordings are CDs, not LPs. They sound less
like music than LPs.

Freudian slip perhaps :-)