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Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:25:32 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: I had an interesting experience this morning. I have been helping a hi-fi newbie at work choose his first AV system. When it came to amplifiers I had advised him to try the Arcam AVR300 which suited his requirements and would nicely fit on his tv/hi-fi rack. Plus I knew of Arcam's excellent after sales service and I have an AV8/P7 which I am very happy with. All was well until someone suggested that it might be interesting to try the Denon amp at a similar price as it was getting good reviews. It was wired in to exactly the same cables and speakers and the speaker levels (balance) were set the same. My newbie mate was first to indicate his feelings. The Denon was, to my ears considerably more alive and dynamic than the Arcam both on CD and DVD music videos. The Arcam was warm and cuddly but very laid back. He decided on the Denon and it was easy to have a preference. This friend of mine had never been in a hi-fi dem in his life before and because we were using a projector for the music DVDs the room was in almost total darkness there was no subtle facial expressions guiding him at all. Don't anyone ever tell me all good amps sound the same, they simply don't, Yes, they do. unless of course these amps are both not good. I will concede that it could have been the DACs that were so different as we did not use an analogue source but even so... Incidentally, I wouldn't think the shop wanted that result as the Denon was 300UKP cheaper. Try it again under level-matched DBT conditions. Been there, done that many times. Without LMDBT, it don't mean a thing. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
Don't anyone ever tell me all good amps sound the same, they simply don't,
Yes, they do Another vote for "they simply don't" here. As we should have expected, opinions are completely divided. === Andy Evans === Visit our Website:- http://www.artsandmedia.com Audio, music and health pages and interesting links. |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
Bob Latham wrote:
In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:25:32 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: [Snip] Yes, they do. No they B. don't. Another example, My Yamaha amp (recently retired) always sounded hard and harsh to me, I purchased it from a box shifter as it was a good price and I fancied a dabble with surround sound. On swapping to the Av8/P7 the improvement in sound was staggering and it mattered not which was played the loudest the AV8/P7 blew away the Yamaha by a good margin. it doesn't matter which amp can go loudest, they both have to be level matched and be able to drive the speakers without clipping. snip shrillness comments Try it again under level-matched DBT conditions. Been there, done that many times. Without LMDBT, it don't mean a thing. Rubbish! I'm sorry but this is so much hogg wash, the differences were so obvious immediately and the shop clearly would have preferred to sell the other amp but had to agree the Denon had the legs. Besides I don't know anyone that listens to their hi-fi in an LMDBT manner they just switch it on and turn up the wick until it sounds right, that's what we did and the Denon was better QED. uhm, who does listen to their hi-fi in a LMDBT manner? that would mean switching between 2 sources or 2 amps. The LMDBT manner is meant to provide an unbiased comparison between different digital sources or amplifiers, ie to be used when purchasing new equipment (or to perform experiments) I also know that amplifiers sound different depending on what you place them on, I don't think this, I know it! (True story told before). could you elaborate? I'm thinking of hum or other nasties that the amp picks up from the surroundings (e.g. like placing pre and power amps too close to each other, stray RF sources). Or does this indicate poor amp design? What would you have people do, buy the cheapest amp that had the facilities they need and ignore the sound? well, if the amps sound the same and are capable of driving the speakers ... ;) |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:19:20 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: I also know that amplifiers sound different depending on what you place them on, I don't think this, I know it! (True story told before). You do know you said that out loud? He he... I've never seen anyone do a better job of blowing his credibility while trying to score a point. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
In article , Andy Evans wrote:
Don't anyone ever tell me all good amps sound the same, they simply don't, Yes, they do Another vote for "they simply don't" here. As we should have expected, opinions are completely divided. I wonder if you or someone else could explain why they don't (or why they shouldn't)? As background this is my perspective: * As a former engineer (who has designed and built audio amplifiers in an amateur capacity), I design an "amplifier" to amplify. For the range of expected loads and the range of expected output voltages, the output voltage differs from the input only in amplitude (usually with a small delay - 1.5 microseconds or so). * Loudspeakers and rooms are still so variable that adding one more variable is not a good idea if reasonable accuracy - "high fidelity" - is a goal. My goal *is* high fidelity to the recording and not to make the recording more euphonic by using the amplifier. As such I believe the amplifier should be "transparent" and that translates into the goals above. * If the load (the loudspeaker's impedance) is outside the design limit or the amplifier is asked to produce a greater output than specified then I am sure the amplifier could have its own sound but that's an abnormal operating condition. The logical outcome of the above principles is clearly (to me) that an amplifier that is properly designed and is operating within its limits cannot have its own sound. Thus "all good amplifiers sound the same." Of course it could be argued that for the current state of the art or for a specific budget the above goals cannot be achieved. However I assume at least the state of the art is sufficient leaving only budget as a possible consideration. It could also be argued that the above goals are not shared by everyone. -- John Phillips |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
Bob Latham wrote:
Rubbish! I'm sorry but this is so much hogg wash, the differences were so obvious immediately Er. the *POINT* of a DBT is to differentiate between the 'immediately obvious differences' that can be created by poor test conditions. Unless you can devise a test that shows you werent influenced in your NON DBT tests, nothing you say means anything. This is *not* to say that some differences arent so staggeringly obvious that you dont even need to run tests, but you cant dismiss DBT testing for subtle differences, just because you can tell the difference between grossly differing systems without a DBT... |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
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Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:19:20 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:25:32 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: [Snip] Yes, they do. No they B. don't. Sure they do - why wouldn't they? Another example, My Yamaha amp (recently retired) always sounded hard and harsh to me, I purchased it from a box shifter as it was a good price and I fancied a dabble with surround sound. On swapping to the Av8/P7 the improvement in sound was staggering and it mattered not which was played the loudest the AV8/P7 blew away the Yamaha by a good margin. It probably had high HF IMD, pretty common in that range, and I suspect that was what gave away the AX-570 in my own tests. OTOH, if you haven't tried that comparison under *blind* level-matched conditions, then your opinion is not of any real value. A friend of mine has a Linn amp which has blown up and is away for repair. He borrowed the Yamaha on a Friday night about a month ago. When I saw him on the Monday morning after thanking me for the loan he commented "its a bit shrill isn't it?". By pure coincidence (honestly) after talking to the hi-fi shop yesterday about the Denon being better than the ARCAM AVR300 another guy in the shop said and I quote "The Denon does sound lively compared to the AVR300 but doesn't have the harsh sound the Yamahas tend to have". Exactly my experience without any way for the guy to know my view first and no listening test to be done wrong. The smaller Yamahas I have indeed found to be bright, the big 100 watt 2-channel ones seem to have this under better control, but I agree that in my own comparison, the Yamaha was distinguishable. This does not affect the argument that 'all good amplifiers sound the same', it simply confirms the notion that certain Yamaha models have audible deficiencies. Note also that in my comparison, a 'rave review' pair of Denon POA 6600 monoblocs came out very badly, having very shrill treble and being tossed out at the first comparison. My own Denon PMA 350 II is certainly distinguishable from my 'good' amps. In this case, I suspect the harshness is down to switching distortion as well as treble problems. unless of course these amps are both not good. I will concede that it could have been the DACs that were so different as we did not use an analogue source but even so... Incidentally, I wouldn't think the shop wanted that result as the Denon was 300UKP cheaper. Try it again under level-matched DBT conditions. Been there, done that many times. Without LMDBT, it don't mean a thing. Rubbish! I'm sorry but this is so much hogg wash, the differences were so obvious immediately and the shop clearly would have preferred to sell the other amp but had to agree the Denon had the legs. Yeah yeah, if I had a quid for the number of times I've heard that one................... Just try it. Besides I don't know anyone that listens to their hi-fi in an LMDBT manner they just switch it on and turn up the wick until it sounds right, that's what we did and the Denon was better QED. Bull****. Just *try* it. I don't give a monkeys what the measurements say (I have electronic qualifications) I know those measurements were not taken driving those speakers and neither were they taken using music. I also know that amplifiers sound different depending on what you place them on, I don't think this, I know it! (True story told before). Bull**** - unless it's a *really* bad amplifier! What would you have people do, buy the cheapest amp that had the facilities they need and ignore the sound? I'd have them buy the cheapest amp that had the power and facilities required, and that sounded just like any other good amplifier. That's the other reason I keep the Krell - it's a useful reference. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
In article , Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:25:32 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: [Snip] Yes, they do. No they B. don't. Another example, My Yamaha amp (recently retired) always sounded hard and harsh to me, I purchased it from a box shifter as it was a good price and I fancied a dabble with surround sound. On swapping to the Av8/P7 the improvement in sound was staggering and it mattered not which was played the loudest the AV8/P7 blew away the Yamaha by a good margin. So why would you describe the Yamaha as a "good" amplifier? Why not simply conclude that it wasn't a satisfactory design (or had a fault)? - i.e. not good at all... Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:50:06 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:19:20 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: I also know that amplifiers sound different depending on what you place them on, I don't think this, I know it! (True story told before). You do know you said that out loud? He he... I've never seen anyone do a better job of blowing his credibility while trying to score a point. Sorry to be utterly thick but having read, read again, and again I still don't understand any of it. Firstly I was not point scoring I was making a statement of belief, as for this "said out load" comment, no idea what you're on about but it seems you were trying to personalize a disagreement. This is usually done by the losing side in my experience. Cheers, Bob. You were not making a statement of belief - read what I quote from you "I don't think this, I know". So you actually deny that it is belief, but is fact. So make your mind up - do you believe it, or do you know it? There is a huge difference. Anyway, how exactly do you think (believe if you like) you are advancing the argument by posting such unmitigated ********? If you believe you are helping your side of the picture, think again - you are just sounding stupid - almost as if you were religious or something. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:50:06 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:19:20 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: I also know that amplifiers sound different depending on what you place them on, I don't think this, I know it! (True story told before). You do know you said that out loud? He he... I've never seen anyone do a better job of blowing his credibility while trying to score a point. Sorry to be utterly thick but having read, read again, and again I still don't understand any of it. Firstly I was not point scoring I was making a statement of belief, as for this "said out load" comment, no idea what you're on about but it seems you were trying to personalize a disagreement. This is usually done by the losing side in my experience. He's not 'personalising' the argument, he's pointing out that anyone who makes such a claim as you did above, does his credibility no good. BTW, it was not a 'statement of belief', you claimed that you *know* it to be the case.0, whereas any reasonable person would consider such a claim to be highly dubious at best. Certainly, it qualifies as an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. Do you have any? -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
In message , Stewart
Pinkerton writes On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:19:20 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:25:32 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: [Snip] Yes, they do. No they B. don't. Sure they do - why wouldn't they? Another example, My Yamaha amp (recently retired) always sounded hard and harsh to me, I purchased it from a box shifter as it was a good price and I fancied a dabble with surround sound. On swapping to the Av8/P7 the improvement in sound was staggering and it mattered not which was played the loudest the AV8/P7 blew away the Yamaha by a good margin. It probably had high HF IMD, pretty common in that range, and I suspect that was what gave away the AX-570 in my own tests. OTOH, if you haven't tried that comparison under *blind* level-matched conditions, then your opinion is not of any real value. SNIP SNIP. I've certainly measured amplifiers that are almost identical into an 8R load, but do sound different into speakers. The truth is that the amps are not equally good. If you measure the intermodulation when driving a reactive (imitation speaker) load then the differences emerge quite clearly. -- Chris Morriss |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:21:19 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: [Snip] You were not making a statement of belief - read what I quote from you "I don't think this, I know". So you actually deny that it is belief, but is fact. So make your mind up - do you believe it, or do you know it? There is a huge difference. I do know that amplifiers sound different because I proved some years ago with an Hitachi mosfet amp. I did prove it. Anyway, how exactly do you think (believe if you like) you are advancing the argument by posting such unmitigated ********? Is there any need for that kind of language. People who use such terms in a public forum always make me think they're at the very least people of dubious standards. If you believe you are helping your side of the picture, think again - you are just sounding stupid - almost as if you were religious or something. Oh I see, I don't agree with you and I know form personal experience about one amplifier characteristic you decide I sound stupid. How open minded of you. Cheers, Bob. If you say so, Bob. You proved it... I'm still laughing, you know. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:21:37 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: If I'm continually fooling myself, why is it I consistently cannot hear some things and consistently can hear others? Surely if I was convincing myself this would not happen. Just for the record.. I can hear.. Interconnects - too easy. Speaker leads - sometimes subtle sometimes more obvious. I've certainly heard them change the brightness. Some have punchier bass. Platforms under amps - again varies - once for me, quite astonishing. I would say that almost anything placed in the analogue signal path which is not audible is very much the exception. I can't hear.. Absolute phase Green pens Day/night mains effects. Miracle sticky pads or whatever PB comes up with. Cheers, Bob. -- Bob Latham Stourbridge, West Midlands You don't actually live that far from Stew. If you are not full of crap, but sincerely believe you have these abilities, then I think the trip would be well worthwhile for you - both in terms of shutting the rest of us up once and for all, and of course the small detail of a huge wedge of cash in your pocket. As you stand at the moment you are simply hot air. I suggest you take your favourite high quality interconnects with you as they will absolutely guarantee you walking away with the money. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
Bob Latham wrote:
I have reported the story before on this group and frankly I am aware that nothing I say or do will convince you (no I'm not going to drive to your place to take the 1000UKP test). If you can demonstrate the effect here, and show that it isnt merely incompetant shielding, I'll make it 10G |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:01:41 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:21:19 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: [Snip] You were not making a statement of belief - read what I quote from you "I don't think this, I know". So you actually deny that it is belief, but is fact. So make your mind up - do you believe it, or do you know it? There is a huge difference. I do know that amplifiers sound different because I proved some years ago with an Hitachi mosfet amp. I did prove it. [Snip] If you say so, Bob. You proved it... I'm still laughing, you know. Okay, the story very quickly. In 1982 I was using a Hitachi mosfet power driving a pair of KEF R105s. I was very happy with the sound until I moved house. The new house had an under stairs cupboard accessed from the dining room not the lounge but did have a brick wall onto the lounge where my hi-fi was. I had what I thought was a great idea of putting this huge power amp on a wall shelf in this cupboard and hence removing the monster from the lounge. Try as I might for weeks and months I could not get rid of the woolly bass and tried everything I could think of and was even considering changing my beloved speakers. I then decided that I would put the system together using the same cables etc. as I had used in the old house which meant the power amp had to go back in the lounge and on the floor. An hour or so later I switched back on and to my shock and delight the woolly bass had gone and my system sounded great again. I was convinced briefly that this must be cables and so one by one I substituted the cables back to the ones that had been through the lounge wall. No effect, the system was still fine. At this point I was scratching my head, I had no explanation for what I had heard. So I fed the wires back through the wall and put the amp back on the shelf in the cupboard. I was stunned to hear the bass was woolly again. I tried putting the amp on the carpeted floor in the cupboard - tight bass again. So after months of bafflement it came down to the shelf the amp was sat on. The differences were so obvious I did not need another opinion but I did get a friend of mine Dr. John Lufran (yes I know, name dropper) to come and listen for me and got my wife to try and fool us in the lounge with where the amp was by pretending she'd moved it when she hadn't etc. She never got near fooling us, it was far too obvious. That is how I KNOW at least one solid state amp was changed by the surface it rested on and if one does, then others can. I cannot prove any of this other than to myself, my wife and John, but I'm not a liar. Cheers, Bob. What was this amp? d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
Chris Morriss wrote:
I've certainly measured amplifiers that are almost identical into an 8R load, but do sound different into speakers. The truth is that the amps are not equally good. If you measure the intermodulation when driving a reactive (imitation speaker) load then the differences emerge quite clearly. Only the incompetant amps... |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:34:00 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: [Snip] What was this amp? It was kit amp where you get a bag of bits and a couple of PCBs. It had 4 metal can TO3 power mosfets per channel. I think the name was Simmer or something like that, a long time ago. Please don't tell me I hadn't constructed them correctly that would be too much. Cheers, Bob. Well, it would perhaps reveal a genuine effect - that of acoustic feedback - which could very well be responsible for the kind of effect you describe. Whether that would arise from poor assembly on your part or something intrinsic in the design of the kit, I could not say. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
Bob Latham wrote:
I cannot prove any of this other than to myself, my wife and John, but I'm not a liar. if you still live there and want to prove it to me you only have to pay my train fare... |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
Bob Latham wrote:
In article , Ian Molton wrote: Bob Latham wrote: I have reported the story before on this group and frankly I am aware that nothing I say or do will convince you (no I'm not going to drive to your place to take the 1000UKP test). If you can demonstrate the effect here, and show that it isnt merely incompetant shielding, I'll make it 10G I have no idea what the reason is, I wouldn't claim to. isnt 10G enough for you? if someone offered me 10G to hop on the train and perform a no-brain demo I'd be there in a flash... Hot air is all you have. |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:25:32 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: I had an interesting experience this morning. I have been helping a hi-fi newbie at work choose his first AV system. When it came to amplifiers I had advised him to try the Arcam AVR300 which suited his requirements and would nicely fit on his tv/hi-fi rack. Plus I knew of Arcam's excellent after sales service and I have an AV8/P7 which I am very happy with. All was well until someone suggested that it might be interesting to try the Denon amp at a similar price as it was getting good reviews. It was wired in to exactly the same cables and speakers and the speaker levels (balance) were set the same. My newbie mate was first to indicate his feelings. The Denon was, to my ears considerably more alive and dynamic than the Arcam both on CD and DVD music videos. The Arcam was warm and cuddly but very laid back. He decided on the Denon and it was easy to have a preference. This friend of mine had never been in a hi-fi dem in his life before and because we were using a projector for the music DVDs the room was in almost total darkness there was no subtle facial expressions guiding him at all. Don't anyone ever tell me all good amps sound the same, they simply don't, Yes, they do. unless of course these amps are both not good. I will concede that it could have been the DACs that were so different as we did not use an analogue source but even so... Incidentally, I wouldn't think the shop wanted that result as the Denon was 300UKP cheaper. Try it again under level-matched DBT conditions. Been there, done that many times. Without LMDBT, it don't mean a thing. I bet you £1000 I could. |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:47:56 +0100, Chris Morriss
wrote: In message , Stewart Pinkerton writes On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:19:20 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:25:32 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: [Snip] Yes, they do. No they B. don't. Sure they do - why wouldn't they? Another example, My Yamaha amp (recently retired) always sounded hard and harsh to me, I purchased it from a box shifter as it was a good price and I fancied a dabble with surround sound. On swapping to the Av8/P7 the improvement in sound was staggering and it mattered not which was played the loudest the AV8/P7 blew away the Yamaha by a good margin. It probably had high HF IMD, pretty common in that range, and I suspect that was what gave away the AX-570 in my own tests. OTOH, if you haven't tried that comparison under *blind* level-matched conditions, then your opinion is not of any real value. SNIP SNIP. I've certainly measured amplifiers that are almost identical into an 8R load, but do sound different into speakers. The truth is that the amps are not equally good. If you measure the intermodulation when driving a reactive (imitation speaker) load then the differences emerge quite clearly. Shoosh! You can *not* post to this newgroup with any suggestion that - heaven forfend! - there could possibly be any connection between measurements (boo, hiss!) and sound quality! :-) IME, amps with wide bandwidth *and* low HF IMD (while driving a simulated speaker load, as you suggest) are what Doug Self would call 'blameless', i.e. they don't add any sound of their own. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:21:19 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: [Snip] You were not making a statement of belief - read what I quote from you "I don't think this, I know". So you actually deny that it is belief, but is fact. So make your mind up - do you believe it, or do you know it? There is a huge difference. I do know that amplifiers sound different because I proved some years ago with an Hitachi mosfet amp. I did prove it. How did you 'prove' it? Not that I'm necessarily disagreeing with you regarding this particular amp, just curious, BTW, you did not prove that 'amplifiers sound different', only that a particular amplifier sounded different. No one denies that there are many *bad* amplifiers out there. Anyway, how exactly do you think (believe if you like) you are advancing the argument by posting such unmitigated ********? Is there any need for that kind of language. People who use such terms in a public forum always make me think they're at the very least people of dubious standards. ********. If you believe you are helping your side of the picture, think again - you are just sounding stupid - almost as if you were religious or something. Oh I see, I don't agree with you and I know form personal experience about one amplifier characteristic you decide I sound stupid. How open minded of you. If you say that you know that the moon is made of green cheese, you'll get a similar response. Some things are just obvious, and amps varying their sound depending what they're sitting on is an obvious load of ******** - except for a *very* badly designed valve amp. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:21:37 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:50:06 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: [Snip] He's not 'personalising' the argument, he's pointing out that anyone who makes such a claim as you did above, does his credibility no good. BTW, it was not a 'statement of belief', you claimed that you *know* it to be the case.0, whereas any reasonable person would consider such a claim to be highly dubious at best. Certainly, it qualifies as an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. Do you have any? I have reported the story before on this group and frankly I am aware that nothing I say or do will convince you (no I'm not going to drive to your place to take the 1000UKP test). I've read the story, and it's entirely unconvincing. Even if it *were* a genuine effect, it would indicate a staggering sensitivity to vibration, and hence just a sign of an extremely bad amplifier. I note that, given an oportunity to *prove* your case, you are ducking out. What a surprise................ I feel it is time someone stood up and disagreed with the big posters on here that keep saying 'you can't hear this and can't hear that' when I darn well can. Well, we know you *think* you can.............. I feel sorry for people trying to build their systems and only hearing one side on this group. Funny how most, if not all of them are techies who think they know it all and therefore don't need to listen at all. That is of course just a pathetic lying strawman argument. Now, if you actually had any *real* arguments to put forward, I'm sure that we'd all be interested. Although I understand electronic principles and cannot explain what I hear, I do hear it and therefore the theory of all this is missing something somewhere. What's missing is your use of proprly controlled *listening*. But this is how science has always worked, it is always best theory at the time which often gets improved when something shows up which does not match the model. The only problem is translating what people hear into what can be measured and this is where the problem lies I think, I don't think the techies are measuring *all* the right things. Utterly irrelevant. The problem is not in measurements, it's in *listening* techniques. The money is still on the table for anyone who can demonstrate a difference between amplifiers under level-matched DBT conditions. If you're so convinced that *you* can 'hear things' (voices, perhaps?), then bring it on! I am happy that at some point the reason for the differences I and others hear will become apparent as I'm not arrogant enough to think I know all there is to know about what happens at electron level in an audio system playing music into real speakers. You are however arrogant enough to think that *you* can 'hear things', yet you duck out of a chance to prove it - and collect a wad of cash into the bargain. Why is that? If I'm continually fooling myself, why is it I consistently cannot hear some things and consistently can hear others? Surely if I was convincing myself this would not happen. Nope, just basic reinforcement - psychology 101. Just for the record.. I can hear.. Interconnects - too easy. Utter ********! Now you really are making me larf. OK, big boy, put your wad where your gob is. I will bet you £10,000 that you can *not* hear the difference between two nominally competent (i.e. level matched, but I dount this would be necessary) interconnects. Speaker leads - sometimes subtle sometimes more obvious. I've certainly heard them change the brightness. Some have punchier bass. Utter ********! Now you are making me larf again. OK, big boy, put your wad where your gob is. I will bet you £10,000 that you can *not* hear the difference between two nominally competent (i.e. level matched, but I dount this would be necessary) speaker cables. Platforms under amps - again varies - once for me, quite astonishing. Utter ********. Aside from the vague possibility that you built a real stinker of an amp kit at one time, and excluding valve amps, this is sheer nonsense. Bring along any commercially available SS amp you like, and I'll make the same bet - no need for level-matching this time, of course! I would say that almost anything placed in the analogue signal path which is not audible is very much the exception. You are a self-deceiving idiot - and I'll be happy to prove it. I can't hear.. Absolute phase Green pens Day/night mains effects. Miracle sticky pads or whatever PB comes up with. Neither can anyone else(apaert from one) - nor can they hear the ******** that you claim you *can* hear. BTW, you are wrong about one of the above - guess which one? -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:49:02 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:21:37 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: [Snip] You don't actually live that far from Stew. If you are not full of crap, but sincerely believe you have these abilities, then I think the trip would be well worthwhile for you - both in terms of shutting the rest of us up once and for all, and of course the small detail of a huge wedge of cash in your pocket. As you stand at the moment you are simply hot air. I refuse to respond to that due to its provocative and insulting nature. I don't mind an argument, I don't want a pub brawl with a thug. You are however just 'all e-wind and ****' at the moment, as Don says. I suggest you take your favourite high quality interconnects with you as they will absolutely guarantee you walking away with the money. Did I say I had "high quality interconnects"? I have some QED things because they were the best I was able to afford and I wanted longer lengths which the shop had a limited choice of. Anyway Stewart can come here and tell me he can't hear these speaker cables. Make it a straight *bet*, and you're on. Surely you can't lose? BTW, when did you change from interconnects to speaker cables? -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:31:51 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:19:20 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: [Snip] No they B. don't. Sure they do - why wouldn't they? As a guess because amplifiers are not measured playing music into real loads or because not all the important audible factors are getting measured at all. It is likely we don't know it all, science has a history of this. I'm talking about *listening* tests, not measurements. But can't you see that this is all degrees, all amps sound different it is just that some are closer than others. ********, I have tried at least a dozen amps which are *totally* indistinguishable. I can of course predict your next comment....... Just try it. Listen mate, I've been building my own amplifiers and speakers for over 40 years and I do try things this is why I can hear things. You can't hear jack **** - you're making this more obvious with every post. It is the Electronic know alls that coincidentally are deaf because they don't need to listen they know it can't sound different. By that comment alone, you demonstrate that you are the arrogant one who is all wind and ****. Come on over and *prove* your case (and make a pile of cash) or keep your half-assed opinions to yourself. Besides I don't know anyone that listens to their hi-fi in an LMDBT manner they just switch it on and turn up the wick until it sounds right, that's what we did and the Denon was better QED. Bull****. Just *try* it. I won't respond to that. Clearly not. I wonder why.................. What would you have people do, buy the cheapest amp that had the facilities they need and ignore the sound? I'd have them buy the cheapest amp that had the power and facilities required, and that sounded just like any other good amplifier. That's the other reason I keep the Krell - it's a useful reference. So at the end of the day you have to listen to amps to find the one you prefer because amps do sound different and none of them are perfect. Give me strength. That is of course just the kind of lying distortion that we've come to expect - because you have *no* substantive argument, you're just wind and ****. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 00:57:14 +0000 (UTC), "neutron"
wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message .. . On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:25:32 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: I had an interesting experience this morning. I have been helping a hi-fi newbie at work choose his first AV system. When it came to amplifiers I had advised him to try the Arcam AVR300 which suited his requirements and would nicely fit on his tv/hi-fi rack. Plus I knew of Arcam's excellent after sales service and I have an AV8/P7 which I am very happy with. All was well until someone suggested that it might be interesting to try the Denon amp at a similar price as it was getting good reviews. It was wired in to exactly the same cables and speakers and the speaker levels (balance) were set the same. My newbie mate was first to indicate his feelings. The Denon was, to my ears considerably more alive and dynamic than the Arcam both on CD and DVD music videos. The Arcam was warm and cuddly but very laid back. He decided on the Denon and it was easy to have a preference. This friend of mine had never been in a hi-fi dem in his life before and because we were using a projector for the music DVDs the room was in almost total darkness there was no subtle facial expressions guiding him at all. Don't anyone ever tell me all good amps sound the same, they simply don't, Yes, they do. unless of course these amps are both not good. I will concede that it could have been the DACs that were so different as we did not use an analogue source but even so... Incidentally, I wouldn't think the shop wanted that result as the Denon was 300UKP cheaper. Try it again under level-matched DBT conditions. Been there, done that many times. Without LMDBT, it don't mean a thing. I bet you £1000 I could. Done. Bring it on. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 21:49:02 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:21:37 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: [Snip] You don't actually live that far from Stew. If you are not full of crap, but sincerely believe you have these abilities, then I think the trip would be well worthwhile for you - both in terms of shutting the rest of us up once and for all, and of course the small detail of a huge wedge of cash in your pocket. As you stand at the moment you are simply hot air. I refuse to respond to that due to its provocative and insulting nature. I don't mind an argument, I don't want a pub brawl with a thug. I suggest you take your favourite high quality interconnects with you as they will absolutely guarantee you walking away with the money. Did I say I had "high quality interconnects"? I have some QED things because they were the best I was able to afford and I wanted longer lengths which the shop had a limited choice of. Anyway Stewart can come here and tell me he can't hear these speaker cables. Cheers, Bob. No need for a brawl. Bob. This is just a case of you putting your money where your mouth is. I suggested interconnects because in your list you described them as "easy". But you are clearly uneasy about stealing Stewart's cash from him over such a trivial test, so how about this? Since the odds are stacked so heavily in your favour, you can collect the cash if you win, but if you fail you can add a grand of your own to the pot. But of course that isn't going to happen - is it? Incidentally, Stewart's criteria for winning are so slack that he can expect about 5% of respondents to win by chance alone. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
In article , Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: [Snip] You were not making a statement of belief - read what I quote from you "I don't think this, I know". So you actually deny that it is belief, but is fact. So make your mind up - do you believe it, or do you know it? There is a huge difference. I do know that amplifiers sound different because I proved some years ago with an Hitachi mosfet amp. I did prove it. I'm afraid that your statement seems at best ambiguous. By "amplifiers" do you mean: A) all amplifiers in existence or B) the selection of amplifiers you listened to in the specific circumstance in which you listened. Also, by "proved" do you mean: A) An objective and testable method which demonstrates your assertion or B) You decided you could hear a difference in the circumstances FWIW my experience is that there are cases/circumstances/examples where I think I can hear differences between amplifiers, and others where I can't. My impression is that some similarly qualified statement would apply for other people as well. However I then deduce from this that: A) Some amplifiers may not be "good" if your definition of "good" means that they should sound the same. (This seems to me to follow by simply logic from the claim that "good amps all sound the same".[1] ) B) That this depends upon the circumstances of use. Thus some amps may be indistinguishable with some music at some levels with some speakers, etc, but show differences when used with different circumstances of use. Hence "good" here may depend upon the details of use. I can't say that "all amplifiers sound different" as I haven't heard them *all*, and I can't cover all possible circumstances of use. Slainte, Jim [1] Wether you (or someone else) would *prefer* an amp that met this definition requirement or not is another matter. Your definition of "good" might mean one that affected the sound in a way you preferred. If so, your money, your ears, your choice. -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
In article , Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 15:50:06 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: [Snip] He's not 'personalising' the argument, he's pointing out that anyone who makes such a claim as you did above, does his credibility no good. BTW, it was not a 'statement of belief', you claimed that you *know* it to be the case.0, whereas any reasonable person would consider such a claim to be highly dubious at best. Certainly, it qualifies as an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. Do you have any? I have reported the story before on this group and frankly I am aware that nothing I say or do will convince you (no I'm not going to drive to your place to take the 1000UKP test). What puzzles me is that you claim you can "prove" this and - above - then say both that "nothing I say or do will convince Stewart" and that you refuse to participate in the one test he has said (IIRC) would convince him. By "nothing I say or do" do you mean "nothing I am prepared to do"? I find it odd that you feel strongly enough to make your claims despite the opposition, and insist upon saying you have "proved" this, but then seem unwilling to take the test you mention. If you do not want to pursade anyone one, why post your claims? If you *do* wish to pursaude people that your claim is reliable, why not do so and also get 1000 UKP from Stewart's pocket? :-) I feel it is time someone stood up and disagreed with the big posters on here that keep saying 'you can't hear this and can't hear that' when I darn well can. But do you think that simply making claims without being willing to show others they are reliable is 'standing up to them'? I have no idea if your claim is right or wrong. For all I know, you may be able to hear differences which have passed me by. However since your experience disagrees with mine I think it is reasonable to ask for some evidence beyond a simple assertion on your part *if* you wish to pursuade me. If you don't care about pursuading me of your view, I am then puzzled by why you bothered to post your claims in the first place. I feel sorry for people trying to build their systems and only hearing one side on this group. Funny how most, if not all of them are techies who think they know it all and therefore don't need to listen at all. Although I understand electronic principles and cannot explain what I hear, I do hear it and therefore the theory of all this is missing something somewhere. But this is how science has always worked, it is always best theory at the time which often gets improved when something shows up which does not match the model. The only problem is translating what people hear into what can be measured and this is where the problem lies I think, I don't think the techies are measuring *all* the right things. You are probably correct. However science does not advance simply by saying "something is wrong/missing". It advances by then devising and carrying out tests that provide reliable evidence upon which to base better ideas. Hence if you wish to make progress it isn't enough to just say "our current ideas and measurements miss things". You then have to be systematic about testing for what may be being missed. We also have to test for being mistaken in our views. (This includes all of us, including yourself.) Thus it seems to me that if you wish to do more that simply make an unsupported claim you should either take Stewart's test and/or suggest some *testable* idea of where the differences you beleive you hear come from if it isn't covered by the usual measurements and ideas. Interconnects - too easy. Speaker leads - sometimes subtle sometimes more obvious. I've certainly heard them change the brightness. Some have punchier bass. Platforms under amps - again varies - once for me, quite astonishing. I would say that almost anything placed in the analogue signal path which is not audible is very much the exception. Then why not get 1000 UKP for showing your claims are well founded? You do not lose any money if you fail. Slainte, Jim -- Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:07:30 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: I do know that amplifiers sound different ON DIFFERENT SURFACES because I proved this some years ago...... The problem with this is that the surfaces were by far the least of the differences in circumstances between the two situations - what made you choose the surfaces as the relevant parameter? d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
Bob Latham wrote:
I do know that amplifiers sound different ON DIFFERENT SURFACES because I proved this some years ago...... I've posted the true story again last night. I heard a US woman gave birth to a live goat... true story! |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
In message , Stewart
Pinkerton writes On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:47:56 +0100, Chris Morriss wrote: In message , Stewart Pinkerton writes On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 13:19:20 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 19:25:32 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: [Snip] Yes, they do. No they B. don't. Sure they do - why wouldn't they? Another example, My Yamaha amp (recently retired) always sounded hard and harsh to me, I purchased it from a box shifter as it was a good price and I fancied a dabble with surround sound. On swapping to the Av8/P7 the improvement in sound was staggering and it mattered not which was played the loudest the AV8/P7 blew away the Yamaha by a good margin. It probably had high HF IMD, pretty common in that range, and I suspect that was what gave away the AX-570 in my own tests. OTOH, if you haven't tried that comparison under *blind* level-matched conditions, then your opinion is not of any real value. SNIP SNIP. I've certainly measured amplifiers that are almost identical into an 8R load, but do sound different into speakers. The truth is that the amps are not equally good. If you measure the intermodulation when driving a reactive (imitation speaker) load then the differences emerge quite clearly. Shoosh! You can *not* post to this newgroup with any suggestion that - heaven forfend! - there could possibly be any connection between measurements (boo, hiss!) and sound quality! :-) IME, amps with wide bandwidth *and* low HF IMD (while driving a simulated speaker load, as you suggest) are what Doug Self would call 'blameless', i.e. they don't add any sound of their own. I would agree except for one point. Doug's 'blameless' design doesn't measure very well into reactive loads. It was one of those that I was referring to! (Oh for the days when I had a set of B&K and Audio Precision test equipment at work) -- Chris Morriss |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
In article ,
Bob Latham wrote: I do know that amplifiers sound different ON DIFFERENT SURFACES because I proved this some years ago...... You may well have proved it to yourself. But then countless other such nonsenses get 'proved' every day. -- *When did my wild oats turn to prunes and all bran? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
Strikes me this thread needs a good dose of the 'Belt' theory.
For a good laugh have a dig into http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/index.html then go and put a bit of foil under one foot (note only ONE foot) of your CD player and see how it improves the sound.......!!! -- Woody |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:38:25 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:07:30 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: I do know that amplifiers sound different ON DIFFERENT SURFACES because I proved this some years ago...... The problem with this is that the surfaces were by far the least of the differences in circumstances between the two situations - what made you choose the surfaces as the relevant parameter? I simply could not think of a better description at the time. How about 'the object' it was placed on? Cheers, Bob. How about the location with respect to the speakers? I'm still thinking microphony here... d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:08:34 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Bob Latham wrote: I do know that amplifiers sound different ON DIFFERENT SURFACES because I proved this some years ago...... You may well have proved it to yourself. But then countless other such nonsenses get 'proved' every day. I am asking you to believe what I said in the story is in no way intentionally fabricated. I accept that requires some trust on your part. I am also happy to hear any serious and non insulting possible alternative reason for what we observed. Another anecdote which again is honestly told. When I purchased my P7 (April 2003) the shop I use suggested I tried a platform they said they had found interesting. The platform was all black and consisted of two parts. What looked like a plain board with some small feet on each of two runners under the board. The second part was an X shaped object that you were supposed to place on end under the board. I took these objects home and my wife and I had a hour or so playing with them. Under my testing methods (it was my money) there was IMHO a cleaner sharper bass when the P7 moved from the wooden hi-fi unit onto the stand/board. But then I tried moving the board and amplifier back on the Hi-Fi unit and off the stand and heard no difference. I removed the board and the bass deteriorated again. Honestly there was no change with the X stand that we could hear but the board was quite worthwhile. Now I know you have to believe my account but how on earth can I decide (by fooling myself) that I can hear one thing I've never tried before but not another using exactly the same testing method at the same time? A serious answer is welcome another "you're a liar or something unmentionable" please don't bother. Cheers, Bob. Not a liar, but seriously deluded. I can't think of anybody has reported such an effect in a situation where they didn't know whether it was on a stand or not. Autosuggestion is an unbelievably powerful thing. Grab yourself a copy of the McGurk effect and report back what you hear sighted and unsighted. http://www.media.uio.no/personer/arn...k_english.html You only need to close your eyes to make it work. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:37:46 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:38:25 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: I simply could not think of a better description at the time. How about 'the object' it was placed on? How about the location with respect to the speakers? I'm still thinking microphony here... Well yes I'm sure it was microphony I was just amazed at how great was its effect on solid state devices. The shelf was about 1 foot up the inside brick wall of the cupboard. It was one of those steel double track items with the shelf itself made of thick MDF. The amp also spanned the full width between the supports so did not really rely on the MDF shelf. As for distance from the speakers, when my wife was lifting the amp on and off the shelf she was placing the amp on the carpeted floor under the shelf or very nearly. Cheers, Bob. The point is that with a solid state amp, you should be able to stand the thing on top of the speakers with absolutely no audible effects. There was clearly something badly amiss with this one. That being so, you really can't generalise to other amplifiers. It is not "an effect on solid state devices" it is an effect on an amplifier with a defect. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:37:40 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 20:31:51 GMT, Bob Latham wrote: [Snip] That is of course just the kind of lying distortion that we've come to expect - because you have *no* substantive argument, you're just wind and ****. With the exception of Jim who seems to remain mature and well mannered at all times the above paragraph seems to sum you all up. Jim is more polite, as he is used to dealing with students, but what you fail to understand is that we agree about you. Rude, provocative, arrogant Yup, guilty as charged. and closed minded with the vocabulary of the gutter. Absolutely not in possession of a closed mind, and I use language which in my judgement will elicit a desired response. I cannot respect anyone who behaves in such a manner in a public forum. I have no interest in gaining your respect. You might perhaps have had an interest in proving your case, but I note that you are conveniently ignoring all such opportunities. It's comforting to know that there are still people who have no interest in collecting £1,000 by *proving* what they claim to be obvious, and thereby having the satisfaction of proving me to be wrong. What a surprise..... Yes, I know you've won (or so you think) so why would I be bothered by the opinions of the gutter. No one has 'won' here, you have simply proved that you are indeed all e-wind and ****. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
Good amps all sound the same do they?
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:07:30 GMT, Bob Latham
wrote: In article , Jim Lesurf wrote: In article , Bob Latham wrote: In article , Don Pearce wrote: [Snip] I do know that amplifiers sound different because I proved some years ago with an Hitachi mosfet amp. I did prove it. I'm afraid that your statement seems at best ambiguous. By "amplifiers" do you mean: A) all amplifiers in existence or B) the selection of amplifiers you listened to in the specific circumstance in which you listened. Yes okay, I got carried away whilst writing that and missed out an important few words. Unfortunately, that looked like it fitted in with another of my arguments anyway what i meant to say there was... I do know that amplifiers sound different ON DIFFERENT SURFACES because I proved this some years ago...... You just don't understand the nature of proof, do you? You don't *know* any such thing. I've posted the true story again last night. Also, by "proved" do you mean: A) An objective and testable method which demonstrates your assertion or B) You decided you could hear a difference in the circumstances To the satisfaction of all present in a very good if not perfect test. This was not subtle. ********. FWIW my experience is that there are cases/circumstances/examples where I think I can hear differences between amplifiers, and others where I can't. My impression is that some similarly qualified statement would apply for other people as well. However I then deduce from this that: A) Some amplifiers may not be "good" if your definition of "good" means that they should sound the same. (This seems to me to follow by simply logic from the claim that "good amps all sound the same".[1] ) B) That this depends upon the circumstances of use. Thus some amps may be indistinguishable with some music at some levels with some speakers, etc, but show differences when used with different circumstances of use. Hence "good" here may depend upon the details of use. I can't say that "all amplifiers sound different" as I haven't heard them *all*, and I can't cover all possible circumstances of use. I have not heard all that many amps and those that I have heard have not all been together. What I can say is that of the amps I've listened to lately some have had distinct sounds which readily identify them like my old Yamaha sounding quite hard and the Arcam AVR300 the exact opposite in being warm and laid back. The Denon amp and my P7/AV8 to my ears appeared more neutral although that is only my perception not a statement of fact. I wouldn't mind betting all the amps had a good ruler flat frequency response though. Likely, but this is only one measure. It is however one which is accepted under the rules of the amplifier challenge, so what's your problem? You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!! Cue end of bad Jack Nicholson impression.................. I'm just fed up with 'all good amps sound the same' which is either a load of rubbish or there are very few good amps on the market take your pick. It is neither - it is an easily proveable fact which applies to a large number of modern SS amplifiers. Of course, you will keep ducking and diving to avoid this, since it doesn't agree with your amateurish preconceptions, won't you? -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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